Israel is bad, because there is a lot of propaganda in Israel.

[Nakura Chambers]

I proudly wear a pin that has the US flag and Israeli flag side-by-side almost everywhere I go. A fellow student in my college algebra class who claims to be an "anarchist" approached me after class and started up a conversation on Israel. He claims that Israel is "bad," because "there is a lot of propaganda in Israel." That was the only reason he provided for why Israel was "bad."

I only had a few minutes between classes, so I didn't really question him on his propaganda statement. First of all, Israel is a free and democratic society that recognizes freedom of speech. Anyone can publish just about anything they want and freely express their views, just like in the United States and most other free countries. Secondly, how can he attack Israel for "propaganda," but not attack the Arab states, whose media openly advocates for the destruction of Israel and where dissenting opinions will get you jailed or killed? Thirdly, even if a lot of Israeli media outlets were propaganda machines (they aren't), how would that be any different from the media in most other free countries (including the United States)?

Anyone care to defend the anarchist's claim?

[breadisfunny]

i have one question. wasn't a similar thread about this made already a couple months ago?
also why do you wear such a pin?

[Korgoth]

Anyone care to defend the anarchist's claim?

Where is a true anarchist when you need them...

- - - Updated - - -

It was probably True Anarch. You guys should kiss.

Screw you, beat me to it... /cry

[breadisfunny]

It was probably True Anarch. You guys should kiss.

that sounds hot. im sorry that just come out unexpectedly.

[Nakura Chambers]

i have one question. wasn't a similar thread about this made already a couple months ago?
also why do you wear such a pin?

I'm not sure if a similar thread was made a couple of months ago. I just know that this happened to my yesterday and I really wish I had the time to question him further. Being unable to do so, I'm hoping someone here can shed some more light on possible reasons he might believe what he believes.

And I wear the pin, because I believe in the United States - Israel alliance. I think that there are certain elements in the United States (like the anarchist student), who are actively trying to cause relations with Israel to deteriorate.

[gamma Ray]

Israel sucks like most other nation states in the middle east. People there are fine. Most of the people. But all the leaders know that they have more power to gain by pointing fingers at their neighbors. So unfortunately all the nations have created a situation where the path to more power is more tension. So it leads all the people to want more leaders who do more pointing.

So yes. Israel sucks. But no more than most other middle east nations. And if you want to throw America in that mix, sure why not. But it doesn't mean Israel sucks less.

[Kasierith]

The only real propaganda is that there's very little US coverage over bad actions that the Israeli government takes. The opinions of the majority of the internation community are basically, Israel's rather blatant violations of numerous treaties, agreements, and human rights should be noted and called out. That's pretty far from "we should strip Israel of all defenses and let Hamas kill them!!" which is what some people think criticizing their actions means. But as it is, Israel gets no real international pressure on it, which encourages further criminal acts, which gives Hamas the fuel it needs to stir up more of their terrorists to use against Israel.

That aside, though, I am curious why so many Americans want so much of their tax money going to an overall extremely prosperous and well off nation. I mean, despite having rather tenuous connections with so many international powers, they have the 25th highest GPD per capita in the world. They have a solid and diverse industry. Why do you feel the need to give them your money?

[Endus]

I proudly wear a pin that has the US flag and Israeli flag side-by-side almost everywhere I go. A fellow student in my college algebra class who claims to be an "anarchist" approached me after class and started up a conversation on Israel. He claims that Israel is "bad," because "there is a lot of propaganda in Israel." That was the only reason he provided for why Israel was "bad."

I only had a few minutes between classes, so I didn't really question him on his propaganda statement. First of all, Israel is a free and democratic society that recognizes freedom of speech. Anyone can publish just about anything they want and freely express their views, just like in the United States and most other free countries. Secondly, how can he attack Israel for "propaganda," but not attack the Arab states, whose media openly advocates for the destruction of Israel and where dissenting opinions will get you jailed or killed? Thirdly, even if a lot of Israeli media outlets were propaganda machines (they aren't), how would that be any different from the media in most other free countries (including the United States)?

Anyone care to defend the anarchist's claim?

Your entire argument is predicated of a false dilemma.

There's absolutely nothing about stating that Israel has done "bad things" that means you're claiming the Arab states have not. "They both do bad things" is a totally legitimate stance.

Also, there's nothing about freedom of speech that prevents propaganda from being created.

[Nakura Chambers]

The only real propaganda is that there's very little US coverage over bad actions that the Israeli government takes. The opinions of the majority of the internation community are basically, Israel's rather blatant violations of numerous treaties, agreements, and human rights should be noted and called out. That's pretty far from "we should strip Israel of all defenses and let Hamas kill them!!" which is what some people think criticizing their actions means. But as it is, Israel gets no real international pressure on it, which encourages further criminal acts, which gives Hamas the fuel it needs to stir up more of their terrorists to use against Israel.

That aside, though, I am curious why so many Americans want so much of their tax money going to an overall extremely prosperous and well off nation. I mean, despite having rather tenuous connections with so many international powers, they have the 25th highest GPD per capita in the world. They have a solid and diverse industry. Why do you feel the need to give them your money?

Israel seldom does anything inherently wrong. Am I saying that everything Israel has done is 100% justified? No, but they are usually justified in their actions. More importantly, they are also a stable, democratic country with values comparable to our own. They also do everything they can to minimize civilian casualties, but it isn't always possible due to both population density and the fact that Hamas launches rockets from civilian centers (schools, hospitals, etc.). Israel has also shown that they are actually looking for a peaceful solution and has been more than willing to work with moderate groups (Fatah, Egypt, pre-Erdogan Turkey, etc.) to bring about peace.

Americans seem to believe that if they don't send massive amounts of aid to Israel, then Israel will fall. I don't necessarily believe that and many Israeli officials have actually asked the United States to send less financial aid. In my eyes, a guarantee of military defense is far more important than any amount of monetary aid when it comes to helping Israel. We should stand firm in our conviction and our dedication to the defense of Israel. Right now our leaders are sending mixed signals when it comes to Israel and our enemies are capitalizing on that. Money isn't going to send a serious message to the international community, but a defense agreement and personal guarantee from our leaders will.

[breadisfunny]

so because they minimize casualities that makes their actions ok?

[Kasierith]

Israel doesn't seldom does anything inherently wrong. Am I saying that everything Israel has done is 100% justified? No, but they are usually justified in their actions. More importantly, they are also a stable, democratic country with values comparable to our own. They also do everything they can to minimize civilian casualties, but it isn't always possible due to both population density and the fact that Hamas launches rockets from civilian centers (schools, hospitals, etc.). Israel has also shown that they are actually looking for a peaceful solution and has been more than willing to work with moderate groups (Fatah, Egypt, pre-Erdogan Turkey, etc.) to bring about peace.

There are instances where numerous grass roots movements as well as governments have looked into Israeli actions and came to a sound consensus that Israel had taken negligent actions that caused the deaths of Pakistani people for the sake of expedience and simplicity. Then there are bigger issues, such as the entire problem with the West Bank and the wall. Some of these are small, some of them have amounted to the entirety of the international community except for two wanting to call Israel out on their actions, to the point of Security Council intervention, and the United States using its veto powers to negate it. Israel is not a perfect flower. They have never been a perfect flower. And the fact that they can and have done things like gunning down children while the US vetos everything from sanctions to a vague verbal slap on the hand is extremely egregious.

Americans seem to believe that if they don't send massive amounts of aid to Israel, then Israel will fall. I don't necessarily believe that and many Israeli officials have actually asked the United States to send less financial aid. In my eyes, a guarantee of military defense is far more important than any amount of monetary aid when it comes to helping Israel. We should stand firm in our conviction and our dedication to the defense of Israel. Right now our leaders are sending mixed signals when it comes to Israel and our enemies are capitalizing on that. Money isn't going to send a serious message to the international community, but a defense agreement and personal guarantee from our leaders will.

It's more than an issue of the US giving away unneeded funds. It's an overwhelming sore point. The US actively burns relations in the Middle East by funding Israeli military actions, and the fact that the Israeli military doesn't even need financial assistance to "stay secure" is even worse. It goes beyond fiscal irrisponsibility and goes to a massive slap in the face that the single strongest military force in the region receives such aid.

[time0ut]

Ya, this thread is gonna go well...

Anyway, you want someone to defend the position that Israel is bad because they have propaganda there? There is propaganda literally everywhere. That isn't why Israel is bad. Israel is bad because they fucking bulldoze people's houses and build houses for other people in their place.

[Kasierith]

so because they minimize casualities that makes their actions ok?

Right now, I'm thinking of the Israeli officer who gunned down a child for getting too close to a barrier, when it was acknowledged that she was an unarmed child, information released anonymously by one of his soldiers who was disgusted by his conduct.

[Nakura Chambers]

There are instances where numerous grass roots movements as well as governments have looked into Israeli actions and came to a sound consensus that Israel had taken negligent actions that caused the deaths of Pakistani people for the sake of expedience and simplicity. Then there are bigger issues, such as the entire problem with the West Bank and the wall. Some of these are small, some of them have amounted to the entirety of the international community except for wanting to call Israel out on their actions, to the point of Security Council intervention, and the United States using its veto powers to negate it. Israel is not a perfect flower. They have never been a perfect flower. And the fact that they can and have done things like gunning down children while the US vetos everything from sanctions to a vague verbal slap on the hand is extremely egregious.

The fact is that Israel goes out of it's way to avoid civilian causalities, but it isn't always possible in a war zone. Countless civilians have been killed in US drone strikes against al-Qaeda and Coalition bombings against ISIS as well. This doesn't mean the US and Coalition want to kill innocent civilians or don't try to avoid killing them, they do. Israel also tries to avoid killing civilians when possible. Also, Israel isn't "gunning down children," it's absolutely preposterous to claim that they are.

It's more than an issue of the US giving away unneeded funds. It's an overwhelming sore point. The US actively burns relations in the Middle East by funding Israeli military actions, and the fact that the Israeli military doesn't even need financial assistance to "stay secure" is even worse. It goes beyond fiscal irrisponsibility and goes to a massive slap in the face that the single strongest military force in the region receives such aid.

Hence why I wouldn't support funding Israel, unless Israel asks for such aid.

[Kasierith]

The fact is that Israel goes out of it's way to avoid civilian causalities, but it isn't always possible in a war zone. Countless civilians have been killed in US drone strikes against al-Qaeda and Coalition bombings against ISIS as well. This doesn't mean the US and Coalition want to kill innocent civilians or don't try to avoid killing them, they do. Israel also tries to avoid killing civilians when possible. Also, Israel isn't "gunning down children," it's absolutely preposterous to claim that they are.

The case I am referring to:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel

Military attempted to cover it up. Result was minor charges against the officer for improper discharge of weapon.

Also this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2711977.html

[Nakura Chambers]

Right now, I'm thinking of the Israeli officer who gunned down a child for getting too close to a barrier, when it was acknowledged that she was an unarmed child, information released anonymously by one of his soldiers who was disgusted by his conduct.

An isolated incident doesn't equate to Israeli policy anymore than it does for any other country.

[Kasierith]

An isolated incident doesn't equate to Israeli policy anymore than it does for any other country.

Both are frequently cited examples of the Israeli military taking nonchalant attitudes towards human rights, and in not taking any claims of individual events seriously. In the first, the officer faced no repercussions until it was released to the public, directly countering the army's official accounts of the recorded event. I don't know about you, but I would think knowingly shooting an unarmed child, while verbally acknowledging that he would have shot her if she were a three year old, would constitute as more than a minor offense after the government got caught red handed covering it up. It's an example of negligence, and is one of the things that numerous intergovernment bodies and human rights groups have cited as an example of the Israeli government needing to undergo revisions.

[Nakura Chambers]

The case I am referring to:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel

Military attempted to cover it up. Result was minor charges against the officer for improper discharge of weapon.

Also this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2711977.html

And many Israeli citizens and veterans protested the ruling. This is how first-world countries operate, they allow for dissenting views.

Look at incidents like the Yangju highway incident in South Korea or the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam. Or even look at some of the controversial domestic rulings, such as the Mike Brown and Trayvon Martin cases.

[Mormolyce]

There's absolutely nothing about stating that Israel has done "bad things" that means you're claiming the Arab states have not. "They both do bad things" is a totally legitimate stance.

But it's way more fun to arbitrarily choose a side, act as if they're always in the right and everything is the other team's fault, while waving our little team flag around like this is some kind of sport rather than a brutal conflict that costs thousands of innocents their lives.

[Kasierith]

And many Israeli citizens and veterans protested the ruling. This is how first-world countries operate, they allow for dissenting views.

Look at incidents like the Yangju highway incident in South Korea or the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam. Or even look at some of the controversial domestic rulings, such as the Mike Brown and Trayvon Martin cases.

I'm going to go ahead and say, I have absolutely no problems with the people in Israel. At all. My first girlfriend was Israeli, as was my favorite professor and several other close and dear friends. I haven't seen anything to indicate anything wrong with the people within the country. What I have a problem with, and what many in the international community have a problem with, is the unchecked negligence of the Israeli military and government, and the US-blessed ability to ignore any international criticism.