Shadow Reflection - Macro with Shadow Dance or no?

[Razzdu]

I see conflicting information about this all over the place, and I can't get a straight answer with reasons WHY one way is better than another. Most guides I've read (Icy Veins, Ravenholdt, etc) say to just macro SR into SD and pay no attention to it - just abuse Spambush like normal. Then I've read some posters here, and even the Icy Veins guide contradicting itself, saying that you should cast SR - Rupture - SD - Spambush.

Does the SR benefit from SV? Or why is that Rupture before SD important at all? Does it have to do with timing of the SR's damage?

[Dimzum]

I believe the reason you pop rupture right before SD is to ensure you do not have to reapply it during SD. With ambush and causing rupture double ticks, it is possible to shorten the length of rupture a bit. Getting in that extra ambush for extended FW is better than popping SR with SD.

[Razzdu]

That much makes sense, but it doesn't quite explain why you would cast SR before said Rupture. It's pretty widely accepted that Ambush does more damage than Rupture, so why would you want your SR casting it at all?

[Dimzum]

Shadow dance is 10 secs. 5pt Rupture is 24. It will only take a few multistrikes of ambush to bring that down.

So what's better? Having to reapply rupture during SD and missing out on one ambush and FW uptime or having your clone cast an additional ambush.

[Jarvid]

It's pretty widely accepted that Ambush does more damage than Rupture, so why would you want your SR casting it at all?

Erm, in which context?
Damage per execution of rupture(with 5CP of course) is way higher than Ambush, so you definitly want to use rupture with SR, as this can be done out of stealth and because of the reasons Dimzum statet, you do it before SD.

[Ive]

I read somewhere that you don't macro SR+SD because of GCD waste but I don't really see it. I tried using SR+Rupture macro and then immediately popping SD but I didn't notice any difference. On the contrary once i didn't cast rupture at all with the macro so I stayed with SR+SD+on-use trinket -> rupture -> spambush.

[Razzdu]

Then how come so many guides recommend macroing the two abilities? (I am with you guys, just playing devil's advocate for the sake of completeness.)

And ok, so assuming the DPE of Rupture makes it worth casting with your SR up, why is it so bad to cast during SD? You *never* have enough energy to consequitively cast 10 Ambushes during SD, and you're always needing to regenerate at least small portions of energy (unless I'm just bad). With Ruthlessness, Rupture is basically free and only costs a GCD. So, if you've blown your first few Ambushes and are needing to wait a GCD or two for some energy to regenerate, why not cast a Rupture then? (Yes, I know Rupture isn't affected by FW, and Eviscerate is, but Eviscerate also costs more energy.)

[Deleted]

I recommand you to have 2 macros :
1°) Trink >Shadow Reflection > rupture
2°) Trink > Shadow Reflection > Shadow Dance

You'll want to use #1 at the opening and during the fight if your CD are up & rupture < 10 sec.
You'll want to use #2 once GCD triggered from rupture (#1) is over OR if CD are up & rupture > 10 sec.

[Deleted]

Then how come so many guides recommend macroing the two abilities?

Because there are many guides that are just bad...

Only because someone thinks he is knowledgeable enough to write a guide does not mean he is right.

[Razzdu]

That may be, but I'm more interested in facts. It seems to be cool the hip thing to hate on Icy Veins, Noxxic, etc just because they're the main sites that everyone uses. But I don't like just assuming that they're wrong without facts to back up why.

So, that said, why is using a single, energy-neutral GCD during SD to refresh Rupture so bad? You're not GCD locked during SD anyway. I'm not suggesting that you aim to cast Rupture during SD, but the alternative method of going SR - Rupture - SD forces you to either delay using your cooldowns until your Rupture is within Pandemic range, or overwritting an existing Rupture before using your cooldowns for some dps gain that no one seems to be able to quantify.

[Deleted]

I never said that it is bad to refresh Rupture during SD or that you should delay your cooldowns to not refresh Rupture during Dance. It is just better for the opener to not macro SD and SR because you will get a slightly longer FW duration. Same goes for the Situation where you have your Rupture in Pandemic range at the time you want to SD + SR during the fight.

[Razzdu]

Venom, I was just asking the question in general to continue the discussion, not directing it at you specifically.

Your statement about getting a longer FW during the opener - is that assuming that several Multistrikes eat away at the first Rupture that's applied? I usually go PredmedSnD - Garrote - Ambush - Rupture, then macro. That Rupture generally lasts through the 10 seconds of SD.

[Jarvid]

Well, you are given the following situation: a limited number of GCDs where you want to maximise your damage output for your shadow copy.
Sub rogue skills sorted by Damage per Execution:
Rupture>Eviscerate>Ambush

So you will want to use Rupture. Of course you can have a rupture already running and use one more evis instead, depending of the ticks you clip it may still be a damage loss DPE-wise.

So yes, it may not be a dps increase if you clip to much of an existing rupture, so it is good too have a look on your Cooldowns.

Rupture can be used outside of stealth and as it is a bleeding effect is does not benefit from FW, so we are free to use it outside of SD, so we can use more GCDs of SD for other skills that do benefit from FW.

Razzdu, with your opener, SR will not mimic rupture, ignoring the sub rogue skill with the biggest dpe.

[PessimiStick]

So, that said, why is using a single, energy-neutral GCD during SD to refresh Rupture so bad? You're not GCD locked during SD anyway.

You have EW up during (and after) SD, and if you Rupture during SD, you're probably going to need to refresh it again while the trailing FW is still up. If you cast it right before SD instead, you will likely replace it with an Eviscerate, and only be casting 1 Rupture instead of two.

There may be something else I'm missing, but that seems like a fairly understandable reason why you'd want to refresh before rather than during.

[Razzdu]

Yep, I'm with you, but that line of reasoning is what led me to think that if you have (for example) 15sec left on your current Rupture, and both SR and SD come off cooldown. Youre either going to significantly clip your current Rupture, or end up refreshing it during FW, right?

[fierydemise]

You have EW up during (and after) SD, and if you Rupture during SD, you're probably going to need to refresh it again while the trailing FW is still up. If you cast it right before SD instead, you will likely replace it with an Eviscerate, and only be casting 1 Rupture instead of two.

There may be something else I'm missing, but that seems like a fairly understandable reason why you'd want to refresh before rather than during.

With MS levels being what they are this probably doesn't matter too much. With T17M level gear your rupture has an effective duration in the 12-16 second range so you are probably going to need to refresh within an FW window whether you use it inside or outside of dance.

Its worth noting that I don't think there has ever been any SimC APL showing this to actually be a dps increase. The current SimC APL simply tries to refresh rupture within SR without any kind of fancy ordering.

[Razzdu]

It just became one of those things that people assumed would be a dps increase based on what they know of game mechanics, but is really tough to actually prove in practice?

[KiwifruitOCE]

In terms of opener, its the choice between using 6 ambushes in your shadow dance, or 7. If I use reflection > rupture > dance, I'll get 7 ambushes. If I use a gcd on the first rupture, I'll only get 6.

[Deleted]

I don't really see the argument, I currently have Scales of Doom and Heart of the mountain so even with the SR/Rupture macro I still have to re-apply the rupture during the SD or at least during the FW uptime that it provides.

In terms of opener, its the choice between using 6 ambushes in your shadow dance, or 7. If I use reflection > rupture > dance, I'll get 7 ambushes. If I use a gcd on the first rupture, I'll only get 6.

This isn't really true at all, as no matter what you're going to be using a finisher during the Reflect/Shadow Dance uptime so whether that finisher is an evis or a Rupture refresh you will still get the 7 ambushes off if you play it properly. If you are spamming Ambushes during dance without using any finishers then you're doing it wrong, 5CP evis > Ambush.

[KiwifruitOCE]

I don't really see the argument, I currently have Scales of Doom and Heart of the mountain so even with the SR/Rupture macro I still have to re-apply the rupture during the SD or at least during the FW uptime that it provides.



This isn't really true at all, as no matter what you're going to be using a finisher during the Reflect/Shadow Dance uptime so whether that finisher is an evis or a Rupture refresh you will still get the 7 ambushes off if you play it properly. If you are spamming Ambushes during dance without using any finishers then you're doing it wrong, 5CP evis > Ambush.

I use 10 gcds inside my dance. 7 ambushes, one snd, one eviscerate, one rupture. There is no place to fit in a rupture at the start if I want to use 7 ambushes.

I use snd inside dance because I like the way it lines up later on when I'm using vanish, its a personal preference. I could use 8 ambushes inside dance (with lust) instead of freshing snd, but then I would not be able to use premed at the end of shadow dance cuz I'd have too many combo points.

Edit: Thinking over this I realise I may be coming at this the wrong way. The way my opener is set up, my SR casts rupture twice, giving it roughly 30 seconds of rupture. It may be that instead of casting rupture twice you could just add in an ambush into your SR's rotation. Perhaps the ambush damage is greater than 6 seconds of rupture damage.