[Balance] Opener - Give Wrath a chance

[Deleted]

Ever since the balance-revamp, I've done my opener by pre-casting Wrath+SS. All this time, I've been wondering why everybody else seems to be doing Starfire. Seeing as wrath, unlike SF, has a travel time and you can get out 2 spells instead of 1 before the pull (which both hit about the same time at 0), I finally wanted to ask you guys: Why is that? I'm not saying the wrath opener is definitively better, but I find it weird that it doesn't even seem to be considered (at least not in any guide or discussion I've seen since 6.0).

I did some very rough (and probably completely wrong) napkin math for the damage done during CA at the beginning of a fight:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
I used lappee's spreadsheet for cast times, GCDs and SP% (with 892 haste, berserking and 670 Shards of Nothing).

Again, I'm sure I made some huge mistakes and you can pick this apart. The point of this thread is not really the spreadsheet, but the question: Why is nobody considering Wrath in the opener? What am I missing here?
I know this won't make a big difference in burst damage. It's less about min/maxing for me than just being curious.

[Loganess]

Some druids and atleast myself don't even precast anything. It means you can Incarnation at 3 seconds and pot + starsurge at 1.5 seconds. Giving them a few seconds more uptime. Is that more overall damage than what you got out of a precast, apparently so?

[Deleted]

Hmm I don't know. I can still move my pot behind Wrath and take it at -1.5s, so there's no difference.
Regarding Incarnation, I use that about 1.3s before you, so you can probably get 1 additional SF out that's buffed by Inc. When your Inc runs out, you should be around Lunar peak, so let's say your SF with Empowerment (all other buffs should be gone by this point) does 234*2*1.3=608.4 SP% (or 36.5k Dmg with ~6k SP and 2.4k Mastery). You get 15% more damage from Inc, so that's a gain of 91.26 SP% or 5475 Dmg.
From my additional wrath at 0 energy, I get 146.3*1.5=219.45 SP% or 13.2k Dmg. So almost 8k more damage. Right? Guess I should also consider DoTs - if both tick once in the 1.3s, it still shouldn't be more than an additional ~2k Dmg.
Getting a bit too much for ~.05% gain overall. Not smart enough.

[Deleted]

Some druids and atleast myself don't even precast anything. It means you can Incarnation at 3 seconds and pot + starsurge at 1.5 seconds. Giving them a few seconds more uptime. Is that more overall damage than what you got out of a precast, apparently so?

Yeah this what I do too.

When your Inc runs out, you should be around Lunar peak

What? No, when inc runs out you are approaching solar peak (if you run euphoria, which you should on most fights), making the extra spell you get in inc from not pre-casting anything, a wrath inside solar, which will do more damage than an wrath casted at 0 energy. Add to that the potential extra tick from MF/SF under inc and prepot, and no precast should come out on top.

[Deleted]

What? No, when inc runs out you are approaching solar peak (if you run euphoria, which you should on most fights), making the extra spell you get in inc from not pre-casting anything, a wrath inside solar, .

Right, you would be at Lunar peak without using CA in between, my bad. My point still stands, it's just less gain at solar

which will do more damage than an wrath casted at 0 energy. Add to that the potential extra tick from MF/SF under inc and prepot, and no precast should come out on top

You would've cast the wrath at 0:27 anyway, so you don't gain a whole wrath from having 1.3s more of Inc, only 15% more damage on top of that wrath

[Shrewmkin]

From memory Pre cast of Starfire is used for trinket proc's and establishing Lunar eclipse, which honestly isn't needed as Solarbeam activates trinkets like GSR and DUT.

[lappee]

Its true, Wrath pre-cast is more powerful than Starfire. However the real question should be is pre-casting Wrath better than not pre-casting anything and thats all about timing.

Pre-casted Wrath has a cast time of 1.5-1.6 seconds, so in Wraths favour lets say 1.5.
Now the only difference between the two is Incarnation uptime and potion uptime, mainly the lost uptime of incarnation being close to Solar peak at the time it ends.

The lost 1.5 seconds is purely out of being at +90 Solar energy and in that 1.5 seconds we can fit atleast one, but possibly 2 Wraths. the same applies to DoT ticks

So, 1 full Wrath of 50% eclipse bonus vs 30% (2x 15% incarnation boost) of Wraths with (near) 100% eclipse bonus and 30% of dot ticks
Going with pretty lowish 2.2k buffed mastery meaning we have max eclipse bonus of 86.5

Full Wrath (0.5*0.865+1)*146.3 = 209.6 SP
vs
30% Wraths 1.865*146.3*0.3 = 81.9 SP
30% of Sunfire ticks 1.865*29.25*0.3 = 16.4 SP
30% of Moonfire Ticks 29.25*0.3 = 8.8 SP
Total = 107.1 SP

So clearly, when considering only lost uptime of Incarnation pre-casting Wrath clearly wins ahead. Now considering the lost potion uptime aswell we'll be closer together (potion is near 15% damage increase aswell) but still lacking behind without considering any procs (like weapon enchant which is most of the time on). Also we checked with pretty low mastery (higher mastery favours no pre-casting)

TL;DR difference is minimal and doesnt really matter, just like the whole spec in itself (which is a bummer)

[Deleted]

Awesome, thank you for the reply. So I'll just stick to my opener (maybe move the prepot around) and everybody else can stick to theirs aswell. Entirely pointless thread

[lappee]

Awesome, thank you for the reply. So I'll just stick to my opener (maybe move the prepot around) and everybody else can stick to theirs aswell. Entirely pointless thread

There really isnt any room to play with pre-pot, you're going to pull it with inc->prepot+wrath->cd's+surge->dots (dots and surge can change places depending on procs). You can also delay Berserking if you get more starfires out that way.

[theburned]

@tradu
Yeah, you are right, my bad.

[Hildrande]

If it's worth precasting one Wrath shouldn't it be more valuable to precast one Starfire, with its higher DPET, or even two Wraths, if there's room for it during the first ones travel time?

[Tradu]

@lappee

while I don't question your math at all, why would you want to pop potion before the wrath rather than after? (the possibility of ninjapulling is ofc an option, but shouldn't base the math around it.)

having the potion up for the dots + wrath at pretty much the same eclipse energy (possibly a starfire at the middle of the eclipse which I am quite sure would be better than a wrath.)
Also in terms of chances of getting an extra spell off would be better after the pull due to BL (+ haste trinket)

Finishing the Wrath cast puts you in combat, or at least I'm pretty sure it does.

[theburned]

If it's worth precasting one Wrath it should be more valuable to precast one Starfire, with its higher DPET, or even two Wraths, if there's room for it during the first ones travel time.

the choice is between precasting a wrath + starsurge or just a starfire though.
sure if the question were between wrath and starfire, it would look differently.

[Deleted]

There really isnt any room to play with pre-pot

My bad, I didn't realize you get into combat as soon as wrath leaves your hands.

Finishing the Wrath cast puts you in combat, or at least I'm pretty sure it does.

Yes, just tested it on Feng: If you go Inc -> Wrath -> Pot + SS -> CA + Dots, you won't be able to use your potion again

[lappee]

If it's worth precasting one Wrath shouldn't it be more valuable to precast one Starfire, with its higher DPET, or even two Wraths, if there's room for it during the first ones travel time?

With BRF trinkets (and other procs) you want to pop cd's as soon as you get into combat (as thats what triggers them 99% of the time, not actually casting stuff) so casting 2x wraths would only be a waste of procs, as well as the 2nd wrath being horrible since you're already going far into Lunar eclipse

Pre-casting Starfire however deals more damage than wrath but you'll also waste alot of precious Incarnation (and pot) uptime making it a worse option.

- - - Updated - - -

the choice is between precasting a wrath + starsurge or just a starfire though.
sure if the question were between wrath and starfire, it would look differently.

Theres no such thing as pre-casting wrath AND starsurge, you can only pre-cast one spell.

However with the new 40second empowerments you can reset the boss and maintain empowerment thus having it for pre-pull.

[Thoragar]

With the way the trinkets work in BRF, you can finish a precast and get in combat before the rest of the raid and proc your trinkets. Then when the rest of the raid gets in combat, it resets the RPPM on them so they will 100% reproc giving you 20 seconds of trinket uptime. Isn't this worth casting the wrath and losing out on 1.5s of cooldowns?



Furty explains it well in a warlock opener video. You can skip to 0:50.

[theburned]

Theres no such thing as pre-casting wrath AND starsurge, you can only pre-cast one spell.

However with the new 40second empowerments you can reset the boss and maintain empowerment thus having it for pre-pull.

Hmm I am a bit confused lets use 1.5 second gcd's, wrath casts and travel time to boss to simplify things a little, in reality the numbers would obviously be lower due to haste.

so at
- 4.5 seconds incarnation
- 3 seconds pot + wrath cast
- 1.5 seconds starsurge
0 seconds CA + moonfire
1.5 seconds starfire x 2
4.5 seconds starsurge
etc.

wouldn't that mean you are pre-casting 2 spells.
but I suppose from your explanation spending that much of your incarnation for pre-casts would be a really huge waste, also spending the charges might be a really huge waste.

[Romulan1993]

Hmm I don't know. I can still move my pot behind Wrath and take it at -1.5s, so there's no difference.
Regarding Incarnation, I use that about 1.3s before you, so you can probably get 1 additional SF out that's buffed by Inc. When your Inc runs out, you should be around Lunar peak, so let's say your SF with Empowerment (all other buffs should be gone by this point) does 234*2*1.3=608.4 SP% (or 36.5k Dmg with ~6k SP and 2.4k Mastery). You get 15% more damage from Inc, so that's a gain of 91.26 SP% or 5475 Dmg.
From my additional wrath at 0 energy, I get 146.3*1.5=219.45 SP% or 13.2k Dmg. So almost 8k more damage. Right? Guess I should also consider DoTs - if both tick once in the 1.3s, it still shouldn't be more than an additional ~2k Dmg.
Getting a bit too much for ~.05% gain overall. Not smart enough.

You should prepot every pull and not start a rotation off anything else than standard popping ur cds and starfire SS. It's optimal.

[lappee]

Hmm I am a bit confused lets use 1.5 second gcd's, wrath casts and travel time to boss to simplify things a little, in reality the numbers would obviously be lower due to haste.

so at
- 4.5 seconds incarnation
- 3 seconds pot + wrath cast
- 1.5 seconds starsurge
0 seconds CA + moonfire
1.5 seconds starfire x 2
4.5 seconds starsurge
etc.

wouldn't that mean you are pre-casting 2 spells.
but I suppose from your explanation spending that much of your incarnation for pre-casts would be a really huge waste, also spending the charges might be a really huge waste.

Your combat starts when your first offensive spells cast finishes, that is your first wrath. So you only get to pre-cast one spell, your own dps doesnt change between starting the Wrath at 3seconds or 1.5seconds before pull but your damage increases compared to others

But then again, you can just increase your own damage compared to others just by screwing up their pre-pots and whatnot.

Also with the way you described you'd lose a around 10% of your procs aswell so...

[Hildrande]

Full Wrath (0.5*0.865+1)*146.3 = 209.6 SP
vs
...Total = 107.1 SP

Precasted Starfire should be 234% SP * (0.5*0.865+1 )= 335% SP
Cast time is 150% of Wrath's which should give a maximum loss of inc/pot of 161% SP.

I wish my simcraft scripting skill was high enough to map out the ultimate opener more precisely. The default simcraft script precasts Starfire and triggers CA only after Eclipse is 40% towards Lunar.

Edit: Modifying the Simcraft script precast line only gives me for my current gear the first 40 seconds of a Patchwerk fight, 250k parses:
precast Starfire: 69640
precast Wrath: 69180
no precast: 68270
precast Starsurge: 69790

Modifying the precast line plus setting "actions.single_target+=/celestial_alignment,if=eclipse_energy>0" instead of >40 with 1m parses, 40s Patchwerk:
Precast Starsurge: 70020
Precast Starfire: 71280
Precast Wrath: 70782.5
No precast: 69960

Hmm going to fiddle around abit more with that script.