20 Man is Good!?!

[Krazyboomkin]

I normally do not post anything other than a recruitment post but I have recently started reading more of the other post here on MMO. Many people just have an issue with 20 man raids and how it is destroying the guilds and some believe will be the downfall of WoW. Now I am not a player that raids several days a week for several hours a day. I wish I could but I am an older person with obligations that keep me from playing more than 2 set nights for a set time. I want my progression to be more but I have learned to accept what we are able to achieve in the limited time my guild has set up. Let me also add that I am also the GM of the guild, the main tank, and the raid leader. We are a small 2 night raiding guild and currently, at the time of this post, we are 1/10 Mythic and feel we should be further along.

A lot of the argument is the quality of raider that are out there. I feel it is more of a generation issue. I started playing WoW back in BC. WoW being my first experience with any MMO, I had no idea what I was doing. I had no clue what a tank was, healer, DPS or knew what raiding was. At the start I have met some very helpful people, good people, and people who took the time to help each other. This is a completely different topic all together. It was a different time and a different generation. It was generation where people put in hard work to achieve a common goal. Where people helped each other. Now there was bad players and there still are. I am not saying we should keep those who are lazy or just simply fail all the time but there are good people out there that may just need something explained slightly different to get the job done. Patience. Those that know me are probably laughing right now because I am one that have little patience but am more than willing to help someone figure something out. When it comes to raid time, I expect people to be on point.

Wiping is part of the game. Today people quit because you did not kill the boss in 1 attempt or in 1 hour or in the first night. I am not sure if people actually know the amount of time people take to prepare for each boss outside of raids to get faster, smoother kills. When it comes to a guild that has a very limited time to prepare for encounters it takes a little longer. What I see are people who just want to show up and kill a boss because it is what they deserve. If they do not get what they deserve they leave. I never deserved a kill, I have always worked for my kills.

People want to complain about guilds breaking up. Guilds having a hard time finding people. This is all true. We have our issues also. I am not here blaming blizzard and 20 man raids for it. I am blaming the people who are involved. If people just continue to bounce around from one guild to another thinking they are going to climb a leader to be great, you got another thing coming. Greatness comes in time, comes with experience, and comes with hard work. This is something these people lack. I feel the thing that made it harder is the lack of people feeling the need of being in a guild or a community of like minded people. Guilds should have a culture and people should join for the culture the guild is about. Xrealm, and flex raiding took that away. It is not the 20 man format or the quality of people, it is their attitude and feeling that they "deserve" this. There is going to be hard times, good times, ugly times, and times to create friendships and memories.

Blizzard did a good thing in trying to create a way to cater to different player base. Normal and Heroic for the casual player and mythic for the hardcore player. Mythic is the test and if you want to test yourself you need to put the work in. It is like any sport. You go to little league to move into high school sports, to hopefully make that college team, and with the hard work, dedication, commitment, you aim to get with the major leagues but you cannot get there without the work. So do not plan blizzard, do not blame the game, or 20 man fix raids. It is doing what it is intended to do. Blame the players for being little brats that expect to be handed things instead of working for it.

[jasdasm]

10 man with equal loot was the best thing ever happened to Raiding.

[Casagrande]

10 man with equal loot was the best thing ever happened to Raiding.

Quoted for truth. Dealing with 20+ people is exhausting.

[Rafzor]

10 man with equal loot was the best thing ever happened to Raiding.

It was the worst thing ever, as now there is no going back from it because it is harder to adapt to something taken away from your, than not ever having it.

[Vestig3]

You know damn well whats gonna happen with this thread.

[Liandryl]

10 man is too low but 20 man too high, 15 man could be the answer, but even there, people will get mad cuz they have to cut their new 20 man roster etc...

I am in the group of those who think 20 man is too many since on my server, it's really hard to gather 20 really good player unless you take them from multiple guild and even there, we need back up so...

[Rafzor]

And to OP, there will always be guilds were people are happy to stay due to the social environment in there, it just happens when a guild starts getting more progress some people feel they could achieve more with their time, same as someone working in a fastfood restaurant after a while will move on to a better job.

Myself I haven't changed a lot of guilds, since Vanilla's end to TBC I was in one guild from social to raider, but it booted the GM in favour for more casual style, so I left for more progress.
WoTLK was bit of a mess because to a new start on a new realm and my military service towards the end which carried over to Cata.
But in FL I got back raiding to the guild I was in WoTLK and stayed there until couple weeks into ToT (it got really bad allready tho at end of Dragon Soul) but I didn't wanna just jump to a guild that was same rank because I knew I would face samekind of problems with people making mistake etc in there.
But in ToT I got accepted to a way better guild on the realm and proved my spot, tho it disbanded due to GM getting a new job.
Was couple weeks in a guild when SoO came, but it disbanded because couple guys were unhappy they were on the bench or something.
Then got accepted to a top 15 guild, but due to 25 --> 20 cut they didn't want 3 rogues (and I might have played it too safe by Feinting too much etc and didn't have the best gear either as I got the junk items, because I joined for Paragons in SoO, so they didn't gear me for Garrosh, so by comparison my damage wasn't the best).
Well then got to a guild with some old mates from the ToT guild / one that followed that and got nice progress in Highmaul / BRF, but it fell apart due to drama (people making too many mistakes and other guys getting angry about those mistakes).

So now, I have been wondering where to go, because I can't really go to a guild with lower progression, as in the WOD guild I felt I was one of the better players, and got bit annoyed by the constant mistakes of some people (though kept them as my own oppinions to not cause drama).
So only way is to go up, but it doesn't leave many options (and choosing even how much time I wanna spend raiding will narrow the options even further).

[Notdev]

10 man with equal loot was the best thing ever happened to Raiding.

Coincided awfully nicely with the steepest decline(s) this game has ever seen.
WoTLK lockouts were perfect.

[Baconeggcheese]

Can we get a tldr, jeez.

Personally think the 20 man size feels very what's the word.... constricting?

I do think the single raid size is a good thing, we've seen some of the best tuned fights this tier then we've seen in quite a while. Personally I'd like it to be back to 25 man, but that might just be because I hate change and we have quite a large roster of people who we want to see raid time.

[Deleted]

Appreciate you wanna get a point across, but couldnt you have posted this in one of the other threads on the subject?

[Slykz]

I would trade 20 man for 10 man ANYDAY, and they could of made 10 man 5 times harder aswell, i don't care. 20 man feels too serious, i want to progress mythic in a group of friends and keep a steady 10 man roster.

[SlippyCheeze]

10 man is too low but 20 man too high, 15 man could be the answer, but even there, people will get mad cuz they have to cut their new 20 man roster etc...

I am in the group of those who think 20 man is too many since on my server, it's really hard to gather 20 really good player unless you take them from multiple guild and even there, we need back up so...

Truth! 10-person was too few, 20-person is too high, the right size for mythic raids is exactly the number of good members of the raid team we have right now.

This is the same pain that guilds went through last raid size change, and the one before that, and so on. You will adapt, and in a year or so all those 10-person guilds holding out because they are too special-snowflake to merge with anyone else will give up and merge, or give up and die, leading to fewer 20-person guilds able to deal with Mythic, and life goes on.

[Deleted]

Coincided awfully nicely with the steepest decline(s) this game has ever seen.
WoTLK lockouts were perfect.

People often think that this was because the 10 and 25 raids dropped the same loot, but the thing that fucked everyone over was the fact that 10 and 25 shared the same lockout, that has killed allot of the 25 guilds.
It doesn't really matter if you get the same loot or not, what does matter was that you could not do the 10 or 25 version in pug form anymore. You used to be able to just raid with your guild and then do the other version in pug form or just with some guildies for fun if you where in a 25 guild. But after that it you could only do one raid, so no more mains in random pugs and that killed allot of the PUGs and ultimately raids in general imho.

[WskyDK]

Agreed OP.
I miss my 40-mans

[Arbs]

10 man with equal loot was the best thing ever happened to Raiding.

Yet it was killing 25 man. No it wasn't a good thing.

- - - Updated - - -

Agreed OP.
I miss my 40-mans

You miss 40 mans, but if you actually did 40 mans in WoW & Wildstar you wouldn't miss them as much as you think.

They were awesome when you had 40 people & killed a boss, but without getting those 40 it was a nightmare.

[WskyDK]

Yet it was killing 25 man. No it wasn't a good thing.

- - - Updated - - -



You miss 40 mans, but if you actually did 40 mans in WoW & Wildstar you wouldn't miss them as much as you think.

They were awesome when you had 40 people & killed a boss, but without getting those 40 it was a nightmare.

I was definitely being sarcastic

[chibichibiko]

If 10 man raiding killed 25 man raiding, it's because people actually didn't want to do 25 raiding. 25 size dropped more loot and had higher chance of TF/WF in mists, along with the benefits of shrinking the standard deviations in bad luck streaks with particular items not dropping for guilds. Even though they were effectively giving up loot to do so, people raided in smaller groups. There are not many patterns like that in wow's history--generally people begrudgingly do the most efficient thing. So what was the reason that people moved to 10m? There was a lot of back/forth about whether 10 or 25 was more difficult, but you didn't see explosions in 25 raiding when it was perceived to be easier than 10.

[Tyrgannus]

20 seems like a logical number and I fully support the lack of flex in Mythic. We somehow managed set numbers for 4.5 ages of WoW before Flex. Mythic BRF is just really hard, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. If it was too easy the forums would be flooded with the dumbing down of WoW. 20 is an attempt at uniform tuning to negate the invalidation of bickering between 10man and 25man races while also trying to find a happy medium between the two. Maybe it isn't perfect, but it is exactly what I had been wanting for some time.

[Khorm]

If a guild has died then it didn't deserve to live.

[NeverStop]

10 man was terrible for the raiding scene. It led to 10 vs 25 drama in the world first race for 6 tiers and 2 expansions. What we're seeing now is lots of "top" 10 man guilds switch to 20 man and find out they're not actually that good compared to the top 25 man guilds. But instead of admitting they're just not as good, they find excuses like blaming Blizzard for removing their special snowflake status. There should only be 1 world first race, and I applaud Blizzard for bringing it back after all these years.