Does anyone else hate BoS?

[Deleted]

Speaking as someone who plays both DK and Paladin and tanks with a monk that plays ChiEx on everything, it sure as shit comes at a lower relative cost than Sera/HA. Once you get to the sort of unbuffed multistrike that guys like Jellos and Troxism have there's barely a tradeoff in the first place because you only ever have to cast CoI if you get absurdly unlucky many times in a row.

I mean, it's not that I don't agree that baseline, Blood DK is awful, but BoS is too fucking good right now and needs a whack with the good ole' nerfbat. A hard one, at that. One tanking class should not be capable of 50k+ DPS on 3-target fights when every other class caps out in the low 40s with perfect play and the direct intervention of RNJesus - especially so not at the trivial cost to survivability that BoS comes with when you actually have enough MS gear to play it on progression content.

Well bdk doesnt have any other raid utility that other tanks got outside GG which is useful on 1-2 encounters on whole tier. maybe its okay to have chance to do some dps then to help raid?

[Saybel]

Speaking as someone who plays both DK and Paladin and tanks with a monk that plays ChiEx on everything, it sure as shit comes at a lower relative cost than Sera/HA. Once you get to the sort of unbuffed multistrike that guys like Jellos and Troxism have there's barely a tradeoff in the first place because you only ever have to cast CoI if you get absurdly unlucky many times in a row.

I mean, it's not that I don't agree that baseline, Blood DK is awful, but BoS is too fucking good right now and needs a whack with the good ole' nerfbat. A hard one, at that. One tanking class should not be capable of 50k+ DPS on 3-target fights when every other class caps out in the low 40s with perfect play and the direct intervention of RNJesus - especially so not at the trivial cost to survivability that BoS comes with when you actually have enough MS gear to play it on progression content.

If they just nerf the upkeep cost and the damage by 33% or just special case it for Blood and nerf it by 25-30% I'm pretty sure it would be reasonable and still leave us in a competitive state. DK damage with Defile/NP isn't really justifiable, at least if you're going to nerf BoS down to their level and leave us with no real option to do damage. Blood cannot be reverted to it's baseline state without some compensation, otherwise it would literally be dicks.

Meanwhile at 35% MS I still have to pray to the lord jesus if I want to keep BoS up.

And Sera has decent mitigation, it's not exactly like you're spamming HaW anymore. It's not SoI/HS/DP, but it's hardly like you're giving up everything.

[Deleted]

Well bdk doesnt have any other raid utility that other tanks got outside GG which is useful on 1-2 encounters on whole tier. maybe its okay to have chance to do some dps then to help raid?

BWAHAHAHA - you genuinely think Prot has any exclusive utility?

I sure as fucking shit wish HoP was an actually useful spell, but the fact of the matter is that it's the only remotely prot-paladin exclusive utility (and even then, EVERY paladin spec brings it, and Holy is perenially strong) and basically everything it works on only ever actually gets cast half the time because people can just lolguise, lolfeign, lolimmune it on their own - so while it looks great on paper, it's a bag of dicks in practice.

I mean I certainly think it's OK that there are talents that allow you to trade survivability for DPS (but those ought to be balanced between the classes so that every tank spec has a rough equivalent to BoS that achieves roughly the same results, even if the specific design varies greatly), but trying to play it off like ANY tank spec right now is brought for their utility is missing the point on tank balance in WoD entirely.

... and for the record all BoS needs for it to be balanced is a flat nerf to the damage it does (and perhaps a buff to the healing it does to compensate) because right now it's:

1. A complete no-brainer if you can actually pull it off without dying. Defile is only remotely competitive when there are a FUCKLOAD of targets.
2. Only really working in its current state as well as it does due to a completely unforeseen and unintended interaction with the CoI glyph.
3. Per 1 and 2 not even remotely balanced because apparently nobody in the Blizzard dev team decided to do the math and see for themselves that the CoI glyph was just begging to be abused like a Catholic choirboy bent over the altar after Mass, so the numbers aren't even close to being tuned with 100% uptime in mind.

In short, BoS needs to be whacked with the nerfbat, and the horrible job they've done overall with tank design and balancing in WoD needs a serious fucking look.

[Eats Compost]

I can use it optimally, but I don't particularly like it. The flip side of forward planning is that it's not particularly versatile, which isn't a feeling I enjoy even when it's pulling superior numbers. The predictability of raid environment DPS is such that it really doesn't mix things up for me in any meaningful way. That said, I don't like any of the level 100 talents at all. All three just add something to manage, and that doesn't really enrich my experience at all. Defile's the worst offender in terms of outright inconvenience, but Breath of Sindragosa is the worst in terms of the rigidity of its use.

[Deleted]

I think BoS is the best thing they've added to the class since...anything actually, really spiced the play style up for me. Feels very rewarding when used properly.

[Raiju]

I think the dk forums should follow the paladin forums lead and just not play into Praisethesun's bait

[Saiyendra]

Please don't nerf BoS - Iron Maidens was the first time I've topped meters as a tank since MoP!

[Mormolyce]

You should care, because you can either keep up or surpass a large amount of DPS specs by playing correctly, especially if they're playing below the top centiles. You don't really require loads more external healing and if you chose not to out of laziness you are literally gimping your raid for no real reason.

I ain't in Paragon, so I don't give a shit about that. My job is to pull things, hold threat and stay alive.

Gimping my raid, what a joke.

[Saiyendra]

I ain't in Paragon, so I don't give a shit about that. My job is to pull things, hold threat and stay alive.

Gimping my raid, what a joke.

Pulling things is pushing a button at the start of a fight. To hold threat with a +900% threat modifier you need only hit something once every 10 minutes or whatever.

Staying alive is really easy in WoD raids. How do you not fall asleep while tanking with that mentality?

[Deleted]

Pulling things is pushing a button at the start of a fight. To hold threat you need only push a button once every 10 minutes or whatever.

Staying alive is really easy in WoD raids. How do you not fall asleep while tanking with that mentality?

Ehhhh, idk about staying alive being easy in WoD raids. Can't speak for what Normal and Heroic are like in appropriate gear, but surviving in Mythic is a hell of a lot harder than the days of vengeance trivializing everything in SoO when exploited correctly.

That said, I completely agree with your basic message. Tanks bring far-from-negligible DPS and have for a while now, and if you're not trying your damnedest to maximize it within the constraints of what survivability concerns allow, you're gimping your raid whether you like it or not.

[Saiyendra]

I don't agree. In MoP you needed to react within 1-2 seconds or you were dead, while in WoD it takes far longer (5-10 seconds) - healers have a larger role in your survival now, which actually diminishes tank gameplay.

Perhaps my perspective is skewed from the point of tanking as a DK, anyways - in MoP DK mitigation didn't scale with Vengeance at all and your effective health was awful compared to other tanks. DK tanking is in a much better state now mechanically, so maybe that helps make it feel easier.

[Deleted]

On fights with a lot of Trash BoS can actually heal a shit-ton and keep you alive when combined with VB. I'm loving it as a tank and starting to open up to it as a dps. Sadly im tanking Gruul every week.

- - - Updated - - -

I hate BoS. A 2min CD that relies on multistrike RNG? No, thanks.


It'll be nerfed in 6.2.

Confirmed?

[Saiyendra]

No, but they're almost certain to do it considering that they have something against tanks being visible on DPS meters.

[Deleted]

No, but they're almost certain to do it considering that they have something against tanks being visible on DPS meters.

I mean, God knows I'd prefer to see every other tank buffed to where BoS DK is right now (i.e situationally capable of competing with DPS on fights that suit their niche), but we all know the design team thinks if tanks are visible on meters, men will marry goats, women will enter the workforce, and societal order will collapse completely. For the sake of balance, BoS needs to brought in line, just like paladins were rightfully brought in line (if in a completely idiotic way that had needless consequences for things that needed no nerfing) in Highmaul and BrM survivability also needs to be whacked in the face.

And for the record, with regards to survivability in MoP - MoP was all about CD management. You took a shit-ton of damage relative to your HP pool, but it was mostly predictable and you were basically 100% self-sustainable. The issue in WoD is bosses like Brackenspore, Blackhand, etc where you take melee hits for 1/2-3/4 of your HP pool just like you did in MoP, but your self-sustainability is now absolutely fucking wank.

[Saybel]

I ain't in Paragon, so I don't give a shit about that. My job is to pull things, hold threat and stay alive.

Gimping my raid, what a joke.

"I'm not in Paragon, so it's fine if I play like utter shit."

What a great mentality you have there good sir. Enjoy being a burden.

[Tojara]

He's talking like it has minimal effect on the raid by doing less DPS. I think everybody would agree that if it was marginal, it really wouldn't be a big deal, but it isn't. I'm sure people would get mad at their DPS if they were playing suboptimal specializations and/or using suboptimal talents just because they couldn't bother to learn it, especially if it means you would be doing 33-100% more DPS depending on the encounter.

That's the situation for blood right now. Without BoS our single target is dog shit, and with it we are one of the best if not at least competitive. It's literally the difference between doing 20k-24k DPS, or doing 30k+ DPS. It's not a measly number and using the excuse that you aren't in a world first guild is just a hindrance on any guild you end up being in.

A lot of people who play tanks are fucking retarded. We aren't playing vanilla or TBC anymore where tanks did like 0 DPS

[Saybel]

A lot of people who play tanks are fucking retarded. We aren't playing vanilla or TBC anymore where tanks did like 0 DPS

This is extremely common, I only switched to full-time tanking myself about 8-9 months ago but I've noticed since Cata (the first time tanks could make a real contribution to damage) that so many tanks, especially old time ones are stubborn as fuck and refuse to see that damage is part of what tanks are now.

The difference between both tanks trying to do damage and both tanks not giving a fuck is like adding 1-1.3 DPS to each encounter depending on target # and tank classes. You can literally gain 30k dps on some fights by trying, anyone who thinks they shouldn't take up another 30k DPS with minimal cost is a fucking retard basically.

[Deleted]

Only recently got geared enough on my DK alt to even try it. Yep I hate it already.
Also forcing the other tank to eat all suplexes/smashes/do everything doesn't appeal to me at all.

[Miseras]

The discussion might have derailed, but my only issue with BOS is its inconsistency or how unforgiving it is - if I lose one AMS soak from Gruul, I would have been better of with Defile. After alot of testing and looking at the reports my conclusion is the same - go with Defile for consistency. BOS will give you the highest numbers but will have to be perfectly executed.

[Maxweii]

The discussion might have derailed, but my only issue with BOS is its inconsistency or how unforgiving it is - if I lose one AMS soak from Gruul, I would have been better of with Defile. After alot of testing and looking at the reports my conclusion is the same - go with Defile for consistency. BOS will give you the highest numbers but will have to be perfectly executed.

You don't need huge AMS soaking on a fight to have Breath perform above Defile, it just pushes it even farther out ahead. A well planned/performed Breath even without AMS soaking is still a good chunk of damage and will likely beat Defile due to Defile's restrictions.