Talent design

[Grogo]

Which talent design do you like best? Current or old (tree's)

[Pony Soldier]

I like the current one loads more than the old talent trees. The old ones gave you a sense of customization but there was really only one way to spend your points. There was always only one right way of doing it and if you didn't do it that way it would affect your performance and people would get on you for it. It's just like with reforging. For reforging there was again only one right way of doing it so you weren't really customizing your character's stats at all because you had to do it the "right way". You would also have talents that just increase a stat by a max of like 8%. Ooooo whoopdy shit. That stuff is now already added on to our specs. We can't see some of it but it's there and because of this people feel like that customization feeling is gone which is most likely why some people don't like the current talent trees. The talent trees we have now cut out all the bullshit and give you the important parts. The actual useful talents that we were excited to reach on the old trees. Stuff like speed increase talents, shielding talents, a whole new spell to use, talents that actually do something instead of giving you a certain small percentage of an increase to a stat.

The other reason I love the current trees over the old ones was the fact that you can pick anything and not really choose the "wrong one". It's all about which talent works best for you. Best part about it too is that you don't get criticism for choosing whatever you choose.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

From the perspective of lvling a new char, Cata was the best, by miles. The most refined version of the old talent tree, with the very essential "Get your signature spell at lvl 10". Lvling Warrior before Cata? Oh, you don't have Mortal Stike until lvl 40, GLHF. The same can be said for oh so many classes, Ret without Crusader Strike, Feral without Catform etc.etc

From a end-game perspective, the new system is better in every way imagineable. There was zero customization with the old system. None, whatsoever. Every spec had one build that everybody used, and if you didn't use that one build, you sucked. Now you actually have a choice, different talents can be used on the same fights with close to the same results.

[Breccia]

I will admit...I was skeptical at first, but "mandatory" talents like +X% to damage really didn't belong. I have issues with the new system, but it's mostly specific talents rather than the system at large.

[unbound]

TBH, I prefer the old trees. Sure you had about 75% of the people that would only use one combination because they wanted to min/max. But there were a large numbers of us that had fun with the trees and weren't worried about that 2% boost to damage which didn't really matter then (and still doesn't matter now unless you are on cutting edge mythic team).

I would have much preferred that Blizz looked at keeping more variety in the old trees and look to improve (perhaps a bit of split like between major and minor glyphs) rather than just give us the bare minimum that we have today.

[Eie]

I prefer the old trees. There was customization if you weren't focused on what the most optimal PvE spec was. Even the talents that increased a percentage for something were better, even if the choice to spend your talent point into that felt underwhelming. I don't understand why people only want to make choices between some flashy spell and another flashy, core spell, but I digress. My point being is that the old trees were a sum of their parts, where everyone had the option to be different from everyone else depending on what they branched into whereas nowadays you only get to pick from three spells that essentially do the same thing.

[I Push Buttons]

I like large talent trees. Even if there is only one viable path, I still like it better.

The new system is tedious and boring with waiting 15 levels for a talent. Some classes have one or two shitty talent choices in a row that do nothing for them short of like run speed bonuses and other bullshit... So they go like 30 or even 45 levels not really getting much at all.

And everything is just as cookie cutter as before. Blizzard are just masking it by making some talents perform better on different fights. If a fight doesn't have adds then obviously the strong single target spell is optimal and you are expected to use it. If it has a lot of adds then the AoE spell is optimal and you are expected to use it. The illusion of choice.

[Cæli]

I like both

I think the 2 ideas should be merged:

Old talent trees =
Gives slight power increase each level
Iconic (I can't really explain why I enjoyed so much the talent tree class backgrounds, but I enjoyed it and think such thing should not be removed)
Allow to be non optimal by messing with other trees, but having more choices (even used rarely) is often fun

New talent system =
Focus on gameplay, allow interesting choices between spells based on the spec

Just add the new talent system spells in the old talent trees to allow the power gain part (leveling), the non optimal hybrid customization (stuff that can be fun or optimal in extremely rare situations), and the current talent spells (obviously the combat related ones would be deep in the tree to prevent balance problems. Blizzard work would be to specially define what spells belong to which spec (based on the "theme") and to balance it).


That's another topic, but I also feel the glyph system is redundant. That revision by Blizzard may be the opportunity to bring back the "good old" talent trees (changing the core things that make a game a huge success is dangerous I guess, re adding it is less dangerous), by keeping the new talent system main idea, and also by adding in a way the glyph system which is basically just spells modifier. But I'm really not sure about this, there is just too much glyph for it to fit into the talent trees. Just a thought though : p

[Deleted]

Current but now they have the ability for talents to change based on spec, they should make more effort to make the talents feel more tied to the spec and the strengths and weaknesses of each spec should be augmented via this. Not just a basic set of what for some classes are pretty generic.

I'll make a suggestion based on Hunter:

Give the talent Stampede to only Beastmaster.
Marksman would get a Goblin/Gnome mortar crew based on faction, It wouldn't have to be less or more damage than Stampede it would just fit the Spec better.
Survival would get a 3 charge Poison spear ability. Each one adding a stack of a ticking dot. Chose to either throw them all at 1 target or spread over 3. Again the damage of 3 stacks overtime would be balanced around Stampede.

There is probably loads of specs that have abilities that don't feel fitting and could have this make each on feel diverse and give a way to make more choice available.

[I Push Buttons]

Current but now they have the ability for talents to change based on spec, they should make more effort to make the talents feel more tied to the spec and the strengths and weaknesses of each spec should be augmented via this. Not just a basic set of what for some classes are pretty generic.

This, I would be fine with the new talents if they customized the tree for each spec. They kind of did this with the 100 talents and a few of the pre-100 talents... But it was a half-ass effort.

When I first saw the 100 talents at Blizzcon and subsequent betas I was very much looking forward to them. Hunter for example... I saw exotic munitions and poison ammo... I thought that was really cool having so many dots up with survival for example... Lone wolf, I always hated pets and thought that sounded great as well.

Both of those talents are meaningless... They have done multiple buffs and nerfs and exotic munitions and lone wolf are still shit. Exotic munitions is literally worthless outside of PvP... That poison ammo I was so looking forward to literally does less single target damage that the explosive ammo which is made for AoE... And both are far behind focusing shot. I just don't understand how after almost six months they have not buffed exotic munitions to be comparable to the others when it was so promising back in the day.

[Linesk]

I liked the old trees as a huntard because I enjoyed switching things up depending on the situation. Like, if I was about to go mount farming by myself I would of course switch all my talents over to the ones that gave me and my pet extra stam and survivability. Granted, I did go back to a cookie cutter spec for raiding, but I enjoyed experimenting with builds outside of a raid setting.

That said, the new talent tree doesn't really bother me. It seems simplistic, but even back in the day it was never something I was super passionate about.

[Littleraven]

From the perspective of lvling a new char, Cata was the best, by miles. The most refined version of the old talent tree, with the very essential "Get your signature spell at lvl 10". Lvling Warrior before Cata? Oh, you don't have Mortal Stike until lvl 40, GLHF. The same can be said for oh so many classes, Ret without Crusader Strike, Feral without Catform etc.etc

From a end-game perspective, the new system is better in every way imagineable. There was zero customization with the old system. None, whatsoever. Every spec had one build that everybody used, and if you didn't use that one build, you sucked. Now you actually have a choice, different talents can be used on the same fights with close to the same results.

Pretty much this. Cataclysm had a good idea but still didn't fix all the glaring problems with the system. The current model is a much better fix to the problem but still isn't perfect. Since WoW is a max level focused game, it is better than the old system in every way. That said, some of the choices are still underwhelming. There are clear "DPS/Tank/Heal" choices that you would never not take as a certain class or spec. They need to blur those lines more.

I still say they should just get rid of glyphs and roll them into the talent system in a more interesting way. Because glyphs are also pretty straightforward in that regard. There are ones you would just never not take and I don't like that design. It is pretty much the definition of cookie cutter. Like I said. It is still better than the old system but it isn't perfect.

[Raiju]

From a end-game perspective, the new system is better in every way imagineable. There was zero customization with the old system. None, whatsoever. Every spec had one build that everybody used, and if you didn't use that one build, you sucked. Now you actually have a choice, different talents can be used on the same fights with close to the same results.

False - for the options that were there you went with a standard setup that suited you best because it was inconvenient to switch.

[Morthulo]

I think the current one is the best one we have had in the game, but I was also a fan of the smaller tree that we got in Cata.

[LilSaihah]

This one. Some of the talent tiers could be more interesting but otherwise it's quite good.

The only time the old talent trees really shined was when a hybrid build was viable, but Blizz is always quick to stamp them out.

[Deleted]

This, I would be fine with the new talents if they customized the tree for each spec. They kind of did this with the 100 talents and a few of the pre-100 talents... But it was a half-ass effort.

When I first saw the 100 talents at Blizzcon and subsequent betas I was very much looking forward to them. Hunter for example... I saw exotic munitions and poison ammo... I thought that was really cool having so many dots up with survival for example... Lone wolf, I always hated pets and thought that sounded great as well.

Both of those talents are meaningless... They have done multiple buffs and nerfs and exotic munitions and lone wolf are still shit. Exotic munitions is literally worthless outside of PvP... That poison ammo I was so looking forward to literally does less single target damage that the explosive ammo which is made for AoE... And both are far behind focusing shot. I just don't understand how after almost six months they have not buffed exotic munitions to be comparable to the others when it was so promising back in the day.

Half-assed basically sums up the entire expansion so far. I think the rewrite to loltimetravel story hurt them a lot more than they will ever admit. The rewrites of entire maps in beta shows how much time was wasted imo. Along with perhaps biting off more than they could chew with garrisons and model remake. I think the zones we got were pretty nice there is a overall disjointed, unfinished, unexplained aspect that doesn't help with the overall feeling of discontent right now.

[Manhands]

So we're comparing:

3 trees, usually 3 options per tier, 7-8 tiers, N tier opens after 5(N-1) points have been spent in that tree, talents are mostly passive save for a couple tree-defining abilities, some talents have dependencies on points being spent on certain talents above

to:

1 tree, 3 options per row, 6-7 tiers, one point per tier, most talents provide abilities


I like that the new talent trees provide several good options that have fight-specific benefits. Most of them are abilities, and a few talent rows per spec change playstyle quite drastically. All of that is good. With less talents and more concentrated goodness, it allows for talent changing out in the world. That's also far superior.

The only thing I really miss is opening the talent page and seeing complexity. It's a nerdy, RPG thing that I love. I also miss spending a talent point every other level. Just one of those fun little time-outs while leveling where you planned which talent you wanted later and figured out synergies. I usually selected talents manually until I hit max level, then I'd do cookie-cutter, so the leveling process felt like choices.

[Deleted]

All have merit, and none are terrible. But I don't think we've arrived at the final result yet, fortunately. A specialization-system in an MMORPG needs to be more just "select your few extra skills". It needs to define your character and provide a ton of interesting choices.

[DeadmanWalking]

The old system gave the illusion of choice, a myraid amount of paths to take but ultimately only 1 correct path or you got booted for sucking. You either went to elitistjerks.com and copy pasta’d your build or you sucked.

Blizzard expected it to be a no brainer that you would take a specific build and scaled their dungeons around that build but since people could choose not to take these spec essential abilities they would inevitably do so and nerf themselves. There was one ability that allowed warlocks to channel hellfire while moving but some people thought hellfire was bad because it ate up life and never used it or took that ability but it was the demo warlocks best aoe and not using that ability and talent dropped dps by 30%.

To give you the option of choosing minor stat upgrades like 1% crit they essentially had to take 1% crit out of your stats so you could put it back. You didn’t get 1% crit, you dug yourself out of a -1% crit deficit to be where you were expected to be.

It also became a nightmare for devs to manage, as we continued to get higher and higher levels we kept adding to the trees until we started overlapping into the other trees. When you have 30 specs with 86 optional switches you have a million ways that it could be abused for unintentional consequences and thats outside of interactions with buffs, mechanics, stats. It became a big game of how long can you keep the plates spinning before they all come crashing down. You know a system is inherantly flawed when other games steal the ideal and blizzard laughs it off and tells them to have at it because they want nothing to do with it anymore.

Frankly the only reason why people liked the old system was because it made you feel rewarded when you leveled, like a monkey playing a musical box so it can get a cookie or a cigarette. We don’t really know why we have to play the music box or how the box works but we get a cookie or a cigarette to feed the need to feel good.

The old system was bad for the game. The new system is very good and I am constantly altering stuff to fit the needs of the fight and thats great as far as I am conscerned.

[melodramocracy]

Neither. You could get a bit more creative with the old one, which is part of the reason it was done away with. I wouldn't call either one a particularly good talent system however.... your point distribution was quite limited.

/10char.