6.2 Rogue Buffs

[MiseryTheRogue]

Why is it ok for mages to do more aoe and single target then a Rogue, then nerf the Rogue.

They are fully aware of dps sims, logs and other things. Why don't they at least explain thier actions for having One class at the pinnical of dps for almost a centry.

Because that's why Blizzard works. Mages,warlocks must be always good because fuck us the rest.

[Aestis teh Rogue]

Well basically since the first round of PTR notes all we've seen is nerfs, whilst the existing strong specs have seen further buffs. It's a bit disappointing when you have to play at a rank 10% or more higher than a Mage on both ST and Cleave fights, to even compete with their DPS.

Rogues have great survivability for a melee but are inherently exposed to more environmental damage than a Mage or Hunter, who also have significant DR tools and stronger DPS.

Given Blizzard have stated a number of times that there is no 'hybrid tax' on DPS, one would assume that Rogue damage should be balanced on-par with other classes (and other weak classes should also be brought up mind you) so that it's the performance of the player, and a particular niche on specific fights, that differentiate, not just one class / spec being overly strong across the board like Hunters and Mages have been this tier.

I'm yet to see any meaningful sims covering all specs at any point of the PTR changes to really know where things sit, so haven't really commented as such on the state of things. I just hope that we're not being pigeonholed in to the "lel can spam feint to cheese mechanics" niche when I believe we should be able to bring as meaningful and competitive DPS as any other class, even to the point of having a single fight where maybe we get to be the class that carries the raid for once, instead of hoping that our Boomkins / UH DK's / Mages / Hunters have a good day out instead.

The only thing they've really nerfed damage wise about rogues since the first round of PTR have been the set bonuses really (and if you thought the original set bonuses were going live then lol). I guarantee you the majority of the people in this thread don't even have any numbers to back up the nerfs / buffs to the set bonuses and I applaud you for not commenting when you don't have the numbers. Just because mages and hunters are top DPS atm doesn't mean they should have god awful set bonuses that might not be worth using because they're so bad. Looking at the 6.2 PTR notes I don't see mages or hunters really getting buffed besides the weak specs, but losing pretty big utility CDs while all 3 rogue specs have buffs across the board. People are just looking at set bonuses with no numbers behind it and crying and complaining.

And if Rogues were #1 on the ptr I could understand the nerfs. But... they weren't. The reason people are upset is because there are specs that outperform Rogues on the PTR in every way yet Blizzard sought fit to nerf all three Rogue specs in one patch. Why? There is no logic here, at least, not from what players have observed.

Kind of the same thing as above, people are complaining about the set bonuses without numbers. Maybe the set bonuses were too strong? I see people complaining that the Archimonde trinket is too strong and it makes or breaks assassination, maybe the set bonuses were in the same boat? You don't want set bonuses being too strong like that, but you don't want them being too weak that you won't even use them regardless of how good your class is outside of the set bonuses. All 3 rogue specs have gotten buffs while mages / hunters haven't been touched hardly and had big raid CDs removed.

[Noxina]

I do like to tell my self "just wait for when it is released! Perhaps it is OK!", but I really got a hard time doing so now.. RIP I guess. How bad are we on meters as of now? Don't have PTR.

[Venant]

I guarantee you the majority of the people in this thread don't even have any numbers to back up the nerfs / buffs to the set bonuses and I applaud you for not commenting when you don't have the numbers. Just because mages and hunters are top DPS atm doesn't mean they should have god awful set bonuses that might not be worth using because they're so bad.

Yeah just wait for 6.2 to drop, then rogues will again be incredibly weak compared to many other classes for an entire tier, because any attention to the rogue class in between patch releases is non-existent. Just go back through all of the patch notes in the last 3 months, rogues are addressed far far less than any other class. We are better off being overpowered at the start of the patch and then having things balanced one month in, as opposed to being weak and having to deal with 6 months of deafening silence.

[Deleted]

Keep in mind an important detail : Blizzard is not a game company. It is actually a machine to produce as much money as possible.
Blues said many time that they were not able to produce containt at the same rate it is consumed by players. So, they have to get it last as much possible. And here comes the Diablo philosophy : give players a good reason to replay endlessly the same dungeons. They started WoD with three different difficulty levels maybe thinking people would start with the easiest braket and go to the next one when the previous one is cleaned. Unfortunately for them, it did not work as players quickly found that the first loots of the higher difficulty level wer easier than the last bosses of the previous braket and in the end, the final boss was a lesser interesting target than the first bosses of the next difficulty.
Now, they are trying to force people cleaning a difficulty before starting the next thanks to three new gimicks :
- overpowered set bonuses
- overpowered trinket for which you have to farm the final boss.
- having loot iLevel increase towardthe final boss.

Now what about rogues ? I would bet they just do not care about rogues at all and this class is a pain in their ass because so many people is complaining about the PVP annoyance rogue represent. So, they may be perfectly fine with the amount of the rogue population and if it could go even lower, they would even be happier (less annoyance for other classes in pvp and a weaker rogue voice on the forums). In the end, they could even remove the class as it were not played enough. Did not they remove spells and especially rogue specific spells ? How long pickpoket - our very last special ability - will last ?

And as for DPS balance, this is something that could even be done automatically... The real balance is done in PVP with control, damage burst, damage reduction and rogues are getting the shaft again on this patch.

[KiwifruitOCE]

The amount of qq in here is insane, I don't think anyone here will be satisfied until rogues are #1 dps for all 3 specs along with #1 survival

You have to remember this is the rogue forum. We are generally self-interested in rogue buffs. If we were warriors, we'd probably be just as interested in having our single target dps be close to or match arcane mages, who do insane dps whilst having numerous defensive cds as well as the added benefit of being ranged and avoiding the ridiculous amount of melee unfriendly mechanics we've been exposed to this tier.

We can all appreciate the defensive power of rogues, but that defensive power is almost a necessary requirement of being a melee in this day. I don't see why we have to trade off so much dps just to be able to be relatively safe in melee.

[Jarvid]

People are just looking at set bonuses with no numbers behind it and crying and complaining.

I don't need numbers to be disappointed that a set bonus(sub), that could have been way more interesting than others because it was a going to be a complete change of rotation instead of a plain % buff together with its single usefullness of the archimonde trinket is now more or less minimized.

Not (only) about the numbers in my case, even buff the other set bonuses of other classes for all I care :-P

Of course if I hadn't looked at the public test realm changes, disappointment could have been avoided.

[Deleted]

Kind of the same thing as above, people are complaining about the set bonuses without numbers.

What are you talking about? Of course there are numbers. Check simulationcraft thread here for rogues and you'll find best rogue single-target with BiS gear atm. is Assassination with ~85k dps. Current arcane mage sims with BiS gear are over 110k dps, and that's without the recent buffs for arcane. Of course you need to consider the numbers might change and current 6.2 PTR profiles might not be optimized, but still, you get the picture.

Don't claim there are no numbers to base our opinions upon just because you didn't take the time to look them up yourself.

[Deleted]

What are you talking about? Of course there are numbers. Check simulationcraft thread here for rogues and you'll find best rogue single-target with BiS gear atm. is Assassination with ~85k dps. Current arcane mage sims with BiS gear are over 110k dps, and that's without the recent buffs for arcane. Of course you need to consider the numbers might change and current 6.2 PTR profiles might not be optimized, but still, you get the picture.

Don't claim there are no numbers to base our opinions upon just because you didn't take the time to look them up yourself.

Where did you find the 110k dps thing about Arcane Mages? I'd like to see that, but I can't find something about it myself

[Aethys256]

http://downloads.simulationcraft.org..._20150603.html

[Kuroii]

Now to play devils advocate ^ with the removal of Fox and the chances that these fights might still be very moving Intensive they might need to compensate with higher dps for Range where as us melee can probably keep our dps at or around our Sims although it still sucks that in a patchwerk fight they will destroy us :P

[SynergyDarkstar]

The amount of qq in here is insane, I don't think anyone here will be satisfied until rogues are #1 dps for all 3 specs along with #1 survival

How about requests for meaningful talents and bug fixes that have been issues since MoP beta? Or is that just some more qq?

- - - Updated - - -

Now to play devils advocate ^ with the removal of Fox and the chances that these fights might still be very moving Intensive they might need to compensate with higher dps for Range where as us melee can probably keep our dps at or around our Sims although it still sucks that in a patchwerk fight they will destroy us :P

This will never, ever happen. Melee do have to move for mechanics as well, including target swapping when things aren't tanked right on top of the boss, air/add phases. Trying to compensate for movement is a loser's game and will wind up with worse balance than when they started

[Smassy]

im just happy im getting a few rogue buffs despite how small they may be.

[Noxina]

Keep in mind an important detail : Blizzard is not a game company. It is actually a machine to produce as much money as possible.
Blues said many time that they were not able to produce containt at the same rate it is consumed by players. So, they have to get it last as much possible. And here comes the Diablo philosophy : give players a good reason to replay endlessly the same dungeons. They started WoD with three different difficulty levels maybe thinking people would start with the easiest braket and go to the next one when the previous one is cleaned. Unfortunately for them, it did not work as players quickly found that the first loots of the higher difficulty level wer easier than the last bosses of the previous braket and in the end, the final boss was a lesser interesting target than the first bosses of the next difficulty.
Now, they are trying to force people cleaning a difficulty before starting the next thanks to three new gimicks :
- overpowered set bonuses
- overpowered trinket for which you have to farm the final boss.
- having loot iLevel increase towardthe final boss.

Now what about rogues ? I would bet they just do not care about rogues at all and this class is a pain in their ass because so many people is complaining about the PVP annoyance rogue represent. So, they may be perfectly fine with the amount of the rogue population and if it could go even lower, they would even be happier (less annoyance for other classes in pvp and a weaker rogue voice on the forums). In the end, they could even remove the class as it were not played enough. Did not they remove spells and especially rogue specific spells ? How long pickpoket - our very last special ability - will last ?

And as for DPS balance, this is something that could even be done automatically... The real balance is done in PVP with control, damage burst, damage reduction and rogues are getting the shaft again on this patch.

What...? WoW have been like this for years, really don't know what you are talking about. And Blizzard isnt a game company? They just got a bunch of games for us, and HotS and Heartstone is even free to play. The ONLY difference with how WoW was from back in the days, is now a 100% optional shop where you can buy pets etc, that have NO effect on gameplay. So please shut the fuck up about the "Blizzard only wants our money, buhu". Don't like the speed new content comes out, fucking unsub and stop bitching about it.
And dont drag that toxic piece of crap into a thread about buffs/nerfs to a single class.

[Deleted]

Now to play devils advocate ^ with the removal of Fox and the chances that these fights might still be very moving Intensive they might need to compensate with higher dps for Range where as us melee can probably keep our dps at or around our Sims although it still sucks that in a patchwerk fight they will destroy us :P

Even if this is to be true, raids will find ways to not make them move (or keep it at a minumum) if they will be able to dish such gargantuan amounts of damage...sadly to our displeasure.

[Joresh]

Even if this is to be true, raids will find ways to not make them move (or keep it at a minumum) if they will be able to dish such gargantuan amounts of damage...sadly to our displeasure.

The problem with fox was that it was abused to avoid mechanics completely by chaining them. A lot of guilds ran multiple hunters (R.E.M. ran 8 on their first mythic Hans kill) to completely negate the mechanics of the fight. Guilds won't be able to abuse movement at that level anymore which is the main thing. Using 1-3 foxes was OP, but not as abusive as chaining 6+ together

[Deleted]

The removal of Fox and Emp's is an indirect buff to all melee classes, Rogues included. I'm not saying leveling from below is an acceptable thing to do, but it's still "good news" from our point of view as to our spot in a raiding environnement. And we need good news these days.

Everybody's crying about the difference between Rogue DPS output for 6.2 and let's say Mages for example, but I'm very curious to see how all these ranges (other than Hunts I guess) will compete with melees on a DPS perspective, not being given anymore an option to not have to choose between moving and DPSing during heavy-movement inducing mechanics

(But it's obviously a big slap on the wrists for a guild progress perspective, and I myself feel bad for my fellow range companions and my raid as a whole by these removals)

EDIT : Same idea as Kuroii, sorry for the copycat opinion, should have read better before posting

[Skarzog]

The removal of Fox and Emp's is an indirect buff to all melee classes, Rogues included. I'm not saying leveling from below is an acceptable thing to do, but it's still "good news" from our point of view as to our spot in a raiding environnement. And we need good news these days.

Everybody's crying about the difference between Rogue DPS output for 6.2 and let's say Mages for example, but I'm very curious to see how all these ranges (other than Hunts I guess) will compete with melees on a DPS perspective, not being given anymore an option to not have to choose between moving and DPSing during heavy-movement inducing mechanics

(But it's obviously a big slap on the wrists for a guild progress perspective, and I myself feel bad for my fellow range companions and my raid as a whole by these removals)

EDIT : Same idea as Kuroii, sorry for the copycat opinion, should have read better before posting

I mean my complaints come from personal experience on the PTR already without Fox. Alot of these fights are not exactly melee friendly to begin with. Mages are still incredibly strong both on ST and Aoe. Hunters' aoe got gimped due to all the BM nerfs, but MM is insane on ST; I mean 15-20% higher than Rogues insane. Aff locks are also incredibly strong with how many cleave fights there are in HFC, especially ones that are spread far apart. Throw in SPriests for the same reason.

So my confusion stems from personal experience not coinciding with Blizzard's actions with the latest nerfs. How exactly Sub warranted a damage reduction while Arcane was buffed and MM was left untouched is beyond me. As it stands right now I think HFC is going to be similar if not worse for Rogues than BRF was.

[Deleted]

And one more time, other classes are buffed and nothing for rogues... This is highly depressing. (see http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...%B6rn-Gameplay )

EDIT : If you add to this the train of QQ about Assassination burst, I bet Assa will even be nerfed right before 6.2 going live, exactly the same way as right before the end of 6.0 beta.

[Smaxy]

And one more time, other classes are buffed and nothing for rogues... This is highly depressing. (see http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...%B6rn-Gameplay )

EDIT : If you add to this the train of QQ about Assassination burst, I bet Assa will even be nerfed right before 6.2 going live, exactly the same way as right before the end of 6.0 beta.

DK/Warriors buffed, don't see how that is "highly depressing"


Patch is still at least two weeks out.