Warlock 6.2 Discussion

[Baconeggcheese]

Right now it feels like playing DDR while on adderall.

It's honestly made worse by our ludicrous ember generation rate between 4p + CR + trinket.

You'd like to stack up some incinerates on that target, but you're capped on embers so instead you toss a non-buffed CB... oh hey 4p procced need to toss another non-buffed CB... cast 2 incinerates and then oh shit gotta toss out another CB, oh hey a mobs in execute WOOPS ember capped more cbs.

It's like playing during the beta when CR had 400% ember generation increase and you just couldn't spend the embers fast enough, except made worse by you NEEDING to cast incinerates regularly.

It gives a horrible ramp to destruction that is very against the spirit of the spec and promotes tunneling, a lot like how afflictions t18 bonuses promote tunneling just the same. Even still locks are in a good position, it just doesn't *feel* good. It isn't *fun* having our items actively working against what made the specs great in the first place. It also makes people *think* that you NEED the trinket to be good, when you don't.

[Yorindesarin]

It's like playing during the beta when CR had 400% ember generation increase and you just couldn't spend the embers fast enough, except made worse by you NEEDING to cast incinerates regularly.

It gives a horrible ramp to destruction that is very against the spirit of the spec and promotes tunneling, a lot like how afflictions t18 bonuses promote tunneling just the same. Even still locks are in a good position, it just doesn't *feel* good. It isn't *fun* having our items actively working against what made the specs great in the first place.

This seems to be a point bought up often now we are actually getting into live raiding etc. All 3 specs have to now play against their strengths whilst being stuck with requiring items to be in a good place (insofar as destro). I hope a main point at blizzcon will be "How we are going to sort out warlocks and what we did wrong in warlords". Else I have a feeling that Blizzard will just go "demo overhaul lets leave destro/affi how they are with a small tweak here and there" which would be a none improving, none moving forward mentality.

[Deleted]

Right now it feels like playing DDR while on adderall.

I really wish I had the trinket. I adored affliction when it was DDR with dots.

That said, I'm not sure I want that out of destruction. I really dislike CR because it makes the spec feel too fast and cheap, embers lack weight.

Really makes me wonder what's going on design-wise and worry if they plan on revamping demonology. At the moment, affliction has a trinket that most people think makes the spec play worse and a tier set that works against itself horribly, promoting MG uptime where the only fights affliction shines are ones where dot refreshing is maximised and MG minimalised, plus the class trinket only amplifies that.

Then we have destruction generating and spending resources at a silly rate that seems to clash with what the spec was and arguably should be, it's vanilla, non-CR variant where embers are slowly built up and spent carefully.

Not sure I want people who made that happen to be redesigning demonology.

[Yorindesarin]

Not sure I want people who made that happen to be redesigning demonology.

I have to agree... Can we get some fresh eyes that haven't worked on warlocks before preferably having not worked on mages/hunters either... You know... Some designers who will go "Oh we have 3 specs that all have issues demonology being our main focus to change but we should also give destruction and affliction something too else we will run into this issue again!". I guess it might be too much to hope for though... Maybe we will end up with demonology where we fill the fury bar with one soul fire thats the new filler then spend all the fury just by swapping to meta to fire a demonbolt... (I went with a really ridiculous scenario)

[Baconeggcheese]

I really wish I had the trinket. I adored affliction when it was DDR with dots.

Re-applying the dots is eh, it's not exactly hectic on its own. Pretty boring / typical.

It's keeping track of which target your latest corruption is on and then weaving in 1 tick drain souls on that target all over the place while maintaining the short dots that gives it depth.

[Leyl]

Re-applying the dots is eh, it's not exactly hectic on its own. Pretty boring / typical.

It's keeping track of which target your latest corruption is on and then weaving in 1 tick drain souls on that target all over the place while maintaining the short dots that gives it depth.

I don't see the trinket being so bad, minus the 4pt18, on its own for Affliction. I play Aff on council, and Velhari. I can say for sure it makes things go faster, but not so fast as to be an annoyance. The 4pt18 I expect some drama there; but by then perhaps I'll just stay away from Aff altogether; which is sad. Plenty hate Aff; to each their own. I just hate it is not seeing any daylight period.

[darkminaz]

is it just me or is the t18 bonus horrible for demo?
the 2 piece seems to drop off in normal single target unless i use chaoswave and the 4 piece just does no damage at all. (1% max)

on topic: i wish i had the archi trinket, would make affli way more interesting.

[Baconeggcheese]

on topic: i wish i had the archi trinket, would make affli way more interesting.

That makes one of us, I hate the thing tbh.

[Count Zero]

Ok, two weeks of normal/heroic and a week of mythic ... sims aside, how is everyone experiencing the specs ? Please mention any relevant gearing (which set bonuses you have, whether BRF / HFC trinks, etc).

The three warlocks in my guild: one is full time Demo, one is full time Destro, and I switch between the two. We all have BRF trinks still (terrible luck on drops and coins). I have 2pc t17 / 2pc t18. They have 4pc t17.

Destro is pretty strong on most of the fights, with plenty of burst/sustained aoe and cleave opportunities. Fights with fewer chances to aoe/cleave, however, and its effectiveness really plummets, and it's very noticeable.

Demo is surprisingly strong. Again, with many of the fights having cleave and burst aoe components, and with there being plenty of movement on every fight, Blizz's encounter design in general simply plays directly into Demo's strengths. Also, with Demonbolt, Demo is very good at pouring it on when something needs to die quick.

On sustained aoe Destro is very good. And overall I'm surprised at Demo surprising as well as it is. But in general I feel like at best locks are mediocre - needing to be propped up by aoe or sniping low health adds to look effective.

But, part of why I'm asking to get insight is because I realize every raid group is having a different experience. For example, my group has had almost entirely Vanq/Prot tokens drop - both for tier and Archi class trinks.

[Gaidax]

As I see it, Destruction is very strong now and it is especially great at taking care of high threat adds, which in turn prop it's damage a lot with smart use of Havoc and Shadowburn.

There is only like 2 encounters where Destruction is not particularly strong and in those encounters DB Demo is a great replacement for it.

I have terrible gear luck, so I still sport 4xT17 and no class trinket - ilvl 702. I expect the whole picture improve further with trinket and 2 pieces T18.

[Duckz0rs]

Ok, two weeks of normal/heroic and a week of mythic ... sims aside, how is everyone experiencing the specs ? Please mention any relevant gearing (which set bonuses you have, whether BRF / HFC trinks, etc).

The three warlocks in my guild: one is full time Demo, one is full time Destro, and I switch between the two. We all have BRF trinks still (terrible luck on drops and coins). I have 2pc t17 / 2pc t18. They have 4pc t17.

Destro is pretty strong on most of the fights, with plenty of burst/sustained aoe and cleave opportunities. Fights with fewer chances to aoe/cleave, however, and its effectiveness really plummets, and it's very noticeable.

Running HFC Normal with 4pc t17 (nm), just switched trinkets from nm GSR/Mythic QR (had atrocious luck with trinkets all of last tier) to nm IRP/nm CSP.

Running CR destro + DB Demo. Kind of running with a new group since the past week(teamed up x-realm with another guild as we were both consistently on ~ 6-8 people), so we're still in the process of figuring out roles etc. 8/10 nm atm (so not sure how useful my findings are to you guys). I'm the only warlock in the group.

Demo is surprisingly strong. Again, with many of the fights having cleave and burst aoe components, and with there being plenty of movement on every fight, Blizz's encounter design in general simply plays directly into Demo's strengths. Also, with Demonbolt, Demo is very good at pouring it on when something needs to die quick.

Switched out affli after the first week for DB, due to issues with priority targets (amongst other reasons). Like you, I'm impressed with how Demo is still pulling up. I usually end up on top 2 when running it, both on overall and priority damage.

Demonbolt is absolutely killer on destroying high prio adds pretty much instantly when asked to. We had a slight problem with the third p2 on Iskar, so I swapped Destro for Demo (mostly because I'm more proficient with Demo at the moment). Chaos bolt cleave was amazing, but saving up a DS+DB cycle for the p3 allowed me to blow up the Corrupted Talonpriest pretty much single-handedly, while the rest dealt with the warden.

On sustained aoe Destro is very good. And overall I'm surprised at Demo surprising as well as it is. But in general I feel like at best locks are mediocre - needing to be propped up by aoe or sniping low health adds to look effective.

But, part of why I'm asking to get insight is because I realize every raid group is having a different experience. For example, my group has had almost entirely Vanq/Prot tokens drop - both for tier and Archi class trinks.

With destro I tend to have the same findings as you. Although part of the reason is that I quite simply still kind of suck at the Destro playstyle, I seem to end up middle of the barrel quite consistently.

It's biggest pro so far has been the fights that are catered to it, like Kilrogg. Although I consistently fail to properly SB cleave, getting a havoc'd chaosbolt on both a globule and bloodthirster clears off a solid 50% of their hp.

Overall I'm kind of torn on Destro; it definitely seems like the best option for a lot of fights, padding or not. On the other hand, I can't figure out if being middle of the barrel is just due to my lack of skill, needing better gear (having only Archmage's Incandescence/t17 4pc as a proc to react to definitely sucks as destro), or if this is where we end up regardless.

On the other hand I'm not too bothered about being middle of the barrel as destro. Being able to, at least on normal difficulty, take care of adds on fights almost entirely on my own is definitely helpful to the raid, regardless of overall dps done on said fights.

[Baconeggcheese]

Ok, two weeks of normal/heroic and a week of mythic ... sims aside, how is everyone experiencing the specs ? Please mention any relevant gearing (which set bonuses you have, whether BRF / HFC trinks, etc).

have 4p and normal trinket

Aff's good on council (I've done mythic) and tyrant velhari (done heroic)

Destructions good everywhere else, especially with the class trinket bringing its single target up to where affs is.

Demo is good early on but isn't looking like its going to scale into the new gear as well.

As I've been saying in the thread the class trinket and set bonuses are annoying because they mostly play against the strengths of each spec. You get punished for target switching to priority adds as destro because of the class trinket and you're swimming in an excessive amount of embers which also plays against the trinket when you need to maintain stacks using incinerate.

Both aff and demos t17 4p play to their strengths, and the t18 ones don't.

Besides all that gloom and doom the class is still in a great position.

[Yorindesarin]

Ok, two weeks of normal/heroic and a week of mythic ... sims aside, how is everyone experiencing the specs ? Please mention any relevant gearing (which set bonuses you have, whether BRF / HFC trinks, etc).

The three warlocks in my guild: one is full time Demo, one is full time Destro, and I switch between the two. We all have BRF trinks still (terrible luck on drops and coins). I have 2pc t17 / 2pc t18. They have 4pc t17.

Destro is pretty strong on most of the fights, with plenty of burst/sustained aoe and cleave opportunities. Fights with fewer chances to aoe/cleave, however, and its effectiveness really plummets, and it's very noticeable.

Demo is surprisingly strong. Again, with many of the fights having cleave and burst aoe components, and with there being plenty of movement on every fight, Blizz's encounter design in general simply plays directly into Demo's strengths. Also, with Demonbolt, Demo is very good at pouring it on when something needs to die quick.

On sustained aoe Destro is very good. And overall I'm surprised at Demo surprising as well as it is. But in general I feel like at best locks are mediocre - needing to be propped up by aoe or sniping low health adds to look effective.

But, part of why I'm asking to get insight is because I realize every raid group is having a different experience. For example, my group has had almost entirely Vanq/Prot tokens drop - both for tier and Archi class trinks.

Still in complete BRF Mythic gear + t17 4p. No class trinket drop as of yet... Sitting on some normal stuff to swap my BRF HC tier out for when I can 2 set... Been playing mostly demo since I find CR destro with t17 clunky... I find I can fit demo in to most fights theres 2-3 where I really can't due to fury gen issues (sometimes I mess up HoG but others its just not being able to get enough soulfires off due to needing quick add swaps etc). I've also had literally terrible loot drops insofar as tokens... And the normal PuGs Ive done both of the ret paladins I raid with have basically won all the tier... RIP me. Still out dps them as DB demo most of the time.. Looking forward to downing Xul HC tonight hoping my shoulders drop... I want to have a go of destro with 0.5 seconds off each CB.

Finally got my 2 set today. Played destro a bit... Got to get back into it properly. Gave demo a go on dummies... I already miss 3 HoG charges got to get back into shadowflame weaving with only two... Keeping demons rush up seems simple enough to me. My issue seems to be that I cap fury pretty quickly on a dummy. Not sure if that will happen in actual fights but I will see... Hopefully I get my 4 set soon... and fragment... definitely need that fragment.

[Count Zero]

As I see it, Destruction is very strong now and it is especially great at taking care of high threat adds, which in turn prop it's damage a lot with smart use of Havoc and Shadowburn.

There is only like 2 encounters where Destruction is not particularly strong and in those encounters DB Demo is a great replacement for it.

I have terrible gear luck, so I still sport 4xT17 and no class trinket - ilvl 702. I expect the whole picture improve further with trinket and 2 pieces T18.

Yeah, reading this made me want to clarify what I said about Destro feeling mediocre at best, but propped up by havoc cleaving - the way actual encounters work, it can do impressive things when there are cleave opportunities (which really is nearly every fight). But when I see my overall dps slipping when there are no adds up, that feels a bit frustrating. And I feel kinda guilty that if there's a call to go 100% on an add to make sure it dies in time that I feel like I can't afford to stop cleaving for the sake of my overall damage. I realize it's just a gcd to apply Havoc, and in most cases it's not really padding since the other target still has to die, but I still feel kinda scumbaggy.

I'd gladly trade a bit of our cleave/aoe strength for a bit better baseline single target.

[Brusalk]

Yeah, reading this made me want to clarify what I said about Destro feeling mediocre at best, but propped up by havoc cleaving - the way actual encounters work, it can do impressive things when there are cleave opportunities (which really is nearly every fight). But when I see my overall dps slipping when there are no adds up, that feels a bit frustrating. And I feel kinda guilty that if there's a call to go 100% on an add to make sure it dies in time that I feel like I can't afford to stop cleaving for the sake of my overall damage. I realize it's just a gcd to apply Havoc, and in most cases it's not really padding since the other target still has to die, but I still feel kinda scumbaggy.

I'd gladly trade a bit of our cleave/aoe strength for a bit better baseline single target.

Havoc isn't a GCD, so enjoy feeling less scummy.

[Deleted]

How do you guys go about playing Affliction lock w/ Archimonde trinket on Hellfire Council mythic? The achimonde trinket really makes it tough for me to ever get a drain soul off, which in return, makes it hard for me to get anything meaningful out of my T18 4pc. Is it worth casting Drain Soul? Should I bother maintaining UA?

[Count Zero]

Havoc isn't a GCD, so enjoy feeling less scummy.

Oh. Well, I wonder if I ever knew this but just forgot. At least I haven't wasted all that time, since I'm usually spamming my abilities anyway. But I'm sure I haven't been taking as much advantage of this as I could have been.

edit/update

Hrm, just tested - it's certainly not completely off the GCD like Dark Soul, but it has a very short GCD effect.

[SpikeySquad]

1/2 second GCD I believe

[Demondep]

Ok, two weeks of normal/heroic and a week of mythic ... sims aside, how is everyone experiencing the specs ? Please mention any relevant gearing (which set bonuses you have, whether BRF / HFC trinks, etc).

Only run normal so far (9/13). Have 2pT18 + 2pT17. Was Demo like everyone else up to 6.2, and I now play CR Destro pretty much everywhere. I do Aff on council, but I hate it. Aff works on that fight but despite whatever recount says, it always feels like I am throwing wet noodles.

CR Destro is fun. Really fun. I top meters in our group for many fights, and don't feel the use of Havoc or SB sniping with mouseover macros is padding. It's how the class is supposed to be played IMHO. I get to be an important mechanic point for our group for several fights (Kilrogg for example). Overall really enjoying it.

Given recent comments I will probably drop Aff for Demo offspec, if for no other reason that Demo is just more fun and our group does just fine on council.

[Soulzar]

Overall I love HFC. Hellfire Assault and Iron Reaver excluded. HFA on Mythic is much more fun, but Heroic and below its meh. Iron reaver is just the most obnoxious boss ever.

Been enjoying the ability to still play Demo on several Heroic fights, not looking forward to requiring Destro for the mythic counterparts. I am still not fully adjusted to CR desto yet. I am really not enjoying its playstyle for the most part, that and I suck at it. I was so excited to get the class trinket for Destro only to find out it makes the spec play even worse trying to manage that stupid buff. It plays against the specs strengths.

Makes me super sad they brought Demo down(but it actually still plays quite strong), since the class trinket fits amazingly well with how you play Demo, where as the Aff and Destro versions work against the specs.