6.2 and Archimonde Trinkets - am I missing something? (resto)

[Wintermut3]

So the 6.2 changes are as follows. Decoupling our Riptide + CH synergy, turning RT into a pretty boring spell, only used to mark targets with High Tides and a typical HoT/Movement heal. Don't really get why they're doing this?

Restoration

• Chain Heal now heals for 25% more.
• Riptide no longer increases Chain Heal's effectiveness by 25% on the primary target.

Then I checked out the archimonde trinkets.

Casting Healing Surge, Chain Heal, or Healing Wave on a target with your Riptide on it has a 55% chance to spread that Riptide to another nearby ally.

It feels like these are sort of contradictory? Trinket would be great if the synergy wasn't decoupled, but now we're gonna be littered with RT procs, even killing our High Tides usage and turning into a lame HoT.

Am I missing some crucial point of use with these changes?

[Arufonso]

How would more Riptides on the raid kill our high tides usage?

[Comfort]

You shouldn't focus on the changes for chain heal and riptide. You should be more focused on whether the trinket itself is actually worth taking.

You are dropping a lot of stats/use/proc for a chance that you will gain an extra riptide with a cast on a riptided target. And the riptides you copy are exact, in that if you copy one at 3 seconds left, the one that spread to a random player lasts 3 seconds. There is also the fact its to another nearby player and it isn't a "smart" system that chooses that target so it could easily be 100% over-heal.

You shouldn't make the assumption that this trinket is going to be useful or BiS.

There are some other trinkets though that are very tasty!

http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124232/i...gift&bonus=567
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124233/d...tery&bonus=567

These are the 2 I have been testing with.

This is also an interesting one:

http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124234/u...sion&bonus=567

The monk in my guild was using it while testing and it appears to be sick if used correctly:

The healing leech contributed:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...143924&fight=7
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...=12&by=ability

The monks buff log (he applied to others):
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...s=Any&target=1

hes got 97% uptime of the buff (Shadowfel Infusion) on 1 or more raid members.
Ignoring over heal it is the 2nd highest contributing spell to healing on the raid (power word: shield balanced of course).
Sadly though the healing caused by the buff he applies does not count as his own healing but rather that of the person with the buff (I have a feeling this may deter the use of it for some ^^).

[Wintermut3]

How would more Riptides on the raid kill our high tides usage?

Because at the moment I can decide (or at least increase my chances of) where I want my extra bounces from CH by using RT on targets I know will take damage.
With the changes, and additional RTs being spawned, I lose that sense of control of CH bounces, assuming they count as regular RTs. So I guess it's badly worded from my part, but I feel it limits my choices in terms of steering the Chain Heal.

You shouldn't make the assumption that this trinket is going to be useful or BiS.

I get your point, and I've seen similar logs in regards to the leech-trinket, I suppose I'm more disappointed that the Archimonde trinket -isn't- interesting, when it's such a unique type of trinket.

It's also the fact the way resto shaman seems to be going doesn't seem so interesting. Having to care about RT at least means I get to use something else than Chain Heal, but that's for another thread.

[Comfort]

I have actually found resto to be a lot of fun on PTR.

the changes to chain heal result in less frustration if anything as you can choose the lowest person, rather than the lowest person that has a RT in theory. its still about making the right choice and most of the time turns out be more rewarding.

I went into ptr not having much of an opinion on the resto t18 set bonuses but having played with them i really enjoy it.

Riptide feels really strong you wont exactly change how you cast it but it definitely feels good to cast it, the 50% crit from the 2 set is incredibly noticeable.

the 4 set riptide application is also a nice addition and adds up to a substantial amount of healing. you can also have it and a traditionally applied riptide on the same target which is even better. helps to avoid a bit of waste and double riptides <3

This is a log from a mythic boss my guild tested:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&source=6

the 4 set riptide accounts for over 12% of my total healing, riptide healing combined is 2nd after chain heal. There were other logs riptide was doing even better.

it also all allows you the potential for maximum jumps from high tide a lot easier. and devalues the glyph of riptide significantly.

and indeed im excited to see discussion about ptr experiences with the new set bonuses and any other significant information.

[Deleted]

You are dropping a lot of stats/use/proc for a chance that you will gain an extra riptide with a cast on a riptided target. And the riptides you copy are exact, in that if you copy one at 3 seconds left, the one that spread to a random player lasts 3 seconds. There is also the fact its to another nearby player and it isn't a "smart" system that chooses that target so it could easily be 100% over-heal.

There are some weird thing going on on the PTR though. There are 2 versions of riptide around (last I checked):
- the casted one, which you can spread via the class trinket
- the one that is triggered by T18, which can't be spread by the trinket

You can have both on the same target at the same time. So they got some fixing to do on PTR (unless that is the way they decide it's gonna stay). I wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt, but here are too many issues too concentrated not to fix.

[Seriss]

Decoupling our Riptide + CH synergy, turning RT into a pretty boring spell, only used to mark targets with High Tides and a typical HoT/Movement heal. Don't really get why they're doing this?

Restoration

• Chain Heal now heals for 25% more.
• Riptide no longer increases Chain Heal's effectiveness by 25% on the primary target.

I'm just glad that they're removing our Firelands 4pc from the spec again. I didn't like it back then when it was just a bonus to chain heal, and I've hated the "synergy" ever since they decided that that playstyle should become mandatory and not a bonus anymore but practically required so that chain heal would heal for a decent amount.

RIP Firelands 4-pc. Good riddance, and don't come back. I still hate you.

[Gardiff]

The 2 pc / 4 pc work well together.

The archimonde trinket, however, is pretty poor for resto. In essence, as others noted above, it has a chance to copy over a casted riptide on a target including the duration that is left on that riptide. Furthermore, it does NOT copy over our 4 piece riptides that are spawned. Because we are going to want to in general spread more riptides with 4 piece we are less likely to keep casting on the same target (and remember only CASTED riptides can be spread) unless if is the tank (which to be fair is pretty likely but remember we no longer have to worry about getting the 25% buff and we will WANT to be spreading new riptides out to new people so perhaps not) because the tank (s) will likely still have our double riptides on them (especially with the 2 piece bonus) and so it has a small role there. I can't see the trinket having any other use apart from that though. You are essentially giving up too much for a pretty poor trinket. IF it worked with the 4 piece riptides that are spawned it might have some use but even then, there are too many good trinkets to give up.

[Alltat]

I think we'll just have to test the trinket. On paper it's very unpredictable (chance to proc from a buff the target might have) and you give up a bunch of stats to get it, so whether it's worth using will depend entirely on how much raw HPS it can do. It'll have to be considerably better than passive stat trinkets to see any use.

the changes to chain heal result in less frustration if anything as you can choose the lowest person, rather than the lowest person that has a RT in theory. its still about making the right choice and most of the time turns out be more rewarding.

It's the same as how the spell worked pre-WotLK. I'm mostly surprised that it took them this long to revert that change, because I don't know of anyone that ever actually liked it. It was one of those changes that seem like a good idea on paper, but which never really worked in practice. Good riddance.

[Deleted]

I'm mostly surprised that it took them this long to revert that change, because I don't know of anyone that ever actually liked it. It was one of those changes that seem like a good idea on paper, but which never really worked in practice. Good riddance.

IMO it never even looked good on paper, in a world where shamans are not chainhealing off tanks 100% of the time. You are incentivized to heal a low HP target with riptide on it. So the target that gets the first chainheal is almost guaranteed to be a shit target for the follow-up chainheal. You are concentrating so much of your healing on one target, that you are forced to sacrifice the mastery benefit or the rt+ch benefit on your second chainheal (or third if you preplanned really well and the damage happens to happen in the way you predicted). When does a target stay considerably lower than other players through RT + CH spam with high mastery contribution? Only scenario would be CH off tanks 100% of the time with all your RTs in the melee group. Wait, that's where your healing rain is as well.
Super shit system in theory, super shit system in practice.

High tide in a vacuum (and in 6.2) is genius though. You can mark certain targets that you think are in danger, and then either CH off them for guaranteed frontloaded CH (and potentially spreading RT via class trinket once they get their spell IDs sorted), or have them be viable high tide targets.

Really looking forward to 6.2 on my shaman. The changes look pretty much on point to me, resto shaman is looking to be really enjoyable.

[Wintermut3]

Really looking forward to 6.2 on my shaman. The changes look pretty much on point to me, resto shaman is looking to be really enjoyable.

I haven't had the opportunity or time to try out things on the PTR yet, but I'm genuinely interested in what changes are causing these "turn-around" reactions. Is it the new set bonuses, the simplified CH or just a generic interest in what's coming over the horizon?

I've read some other threads here in regards to the weird behaviour of 4set, Archimonde trinket and similar. I guess our gameplay and strategy won't change that much except that we can be a bit more focused in regards to CH, only determining targets depending on who's missing the most health? Perhaps I exaggerated my initial reaction, but I'm still a -bit- disappointed that our Archimonde trinket is "nothing special" when it had potential to alter the gameplay, if only for just a tier.

[Deleted]

I haven't had the opportunity or time to try out things on the PTR yet, but I'm genuinely interested in what changes are causing these "turn-around" reactions. Is it the new set bonuses, the simplified CH or just a generic interest in what's coming over the horizon?

For me personally the druid 4-set leads to an incredibly horrible playstyle, which is a huge push factor for me. Plus I get bored fast.
As for shamans, CH is not simplified but un-stupified for reasons I mentioned above. The Rt+CH system never made sense. Neither Tier18 nor the class trinket are huge pull factors, but the old CH and playing the last few weeks of Tier17 are.
I'm looking forward to shaman and 6.2 shaman for playstyle reason. No idea how the numbers or the encounters will turn out.

High tide in a vacuum (and in 6.2) is genius though. You can mark certain targets that you think are in danger, and then either CH off them for guaranteed frontloaded CH (and potentially spreading RT via class trinket once they get their spell IDs sorted), or have them be viable high tide targets.

I just realized that I don't even want them to turn the two Riptide spell IDs into one. You would constantly overwrite your casted Rt if you happen to cast multiple CH on it. The way it is on the PTR you at least get the extra T18 Riptide before the refreshing starts.
On the other hand, if the duration gets spread with the spell via class trinket you'd want a full duration Riptide to be spread. Which would be most intuitive if T18 CH would apply its Riptide, followed by the class trinket potentially spreading it (which doesn't work atm on T18-4 Riptides on the PTR).
It's a clusterfuck either way.

[PTR] Has anyone tested whether both Riptides are working for High Tide?

My take on the matter:
My favorite implementation: 2 spell-IDs, class trinket copying duration and using either spell-ID Riptide (longer duration one), class trinket happens before T18-4 happens, you can spread Riptides off T18-4 Riptides. It's a combination of good numbers, intuitive gameplay but still rewarding at the very top.
That way the first CH on a target uses your casted Rt, follow-up CHs always spread full duration Rt. If you preplanned well you get a few extra chances or seconds worth of Rt-spread. If you switch CH targets constantly you apply T18-4 Riptides to all of them. If you CH bomb one target you are spreading full duration Riptides via class trinket.
To me this is the only implementation that really makes sense.
Best numbers: 2 spell-IDs, class trinket always producing full duration Riptides and proccing off either spell-ID Riptide on the target.
Most intuitive and boring/spammy: 1 spell-ID, class trinket producing full duration riptides. Or copying the duration. Doesn't really matter with the typical spell choice (CH heavy, few HW and few HS).
PTR version: I wouldn't even track T18-4 Riptides on my UI because they don't matter. There is zero interaction with them, zero information value out of tracking them. Not being able to spread T18-4 Riptides leads to the same boring target selection that they are killing with bringing back the old CH - you favor healing low targets with a casted Rt on them over healing lower HP target without it. Which is counterintuitive for a healer, and even moreso with shaman mastery in mind. It's like a catch-up mechanic for bad play: If you are too slow to react and find good CH targets, you may as well spam CH on a target that you casted Riptide on in hopes of spreading that one and at least be useful that way - while constantly overwriting your T18-4 Riptide.

[Anonymitylol]

the changes to chain heal result in less frustration if anything as you can choose the lowest person, rather than the lowest person that has a RT in theory. its still about making the right choice and most of the time turns out be more rewarding.

The changes to chain heal actually make it so anyone can play the spec at a high level as long as they can do mechanics, they completely removed any thought process from the spec. Currently I see shamans struggling w/ RT management greatly and it's a huge divide showing the good from the best, now there will be no difference. You spam CH and that's all you do.

Welcome to the Arcane mages of healers.

[Deleted]

Is it just me or does the class trinket not trigger the initial heal but only the HoT on the PTR?

[Kelsierx]

Trink seems disappointing

Hope it gets some minor improvements.

At least our T18 is looking pretty good.

[Phaty]

The changes to chain heal actually make it so anyone can play the spec at a high level as long as they can do mechanics, they completely removed any thought process from the spec. Currently I see shamans struggling w/ RT management greatly and it's a huge divide showing the good from the best, now there will be no difference. You spam CH and that's all you do.

Welcome to the Arcane mages of healers.

thats the problem with the setup as is. you can put thought into it, but all it takes is someone to snipe one of the low ppl you put riptide on or someone you want hightide to target and its wasted. with other good healers with you all most ppl do is put riptides on range and spam melee or vice versa. at least now we have CH being more reliable and RT being alot more useful than just being a buffer for initial CH. i think it expands our toolkit more. it also opens up more use of UE to take the old GCD spot of setting up riptides

[Alltat]

The changes to chain heal actually make it so anyone can play the spec at a high level as long as they can do mechanics, they completely removed any thought process from the spec.

There's no thinking involved in the current Rt+CH synergy. The current system means you're never really paying attention to what's currently happening, just guessing what might maybe happen in the future. First you don't cast Riptide on people who actually need that healing, but instead on people you think might need Chain Heals later. Then you don't cast Chain Heal on the people who actually ended up needing it, but instead on the people you previously guessed might. You could pretty much not show people's health at all, because actually saving people with low health is done by Chain Heal's smart bouncing and Healing Stream Totem.

I guess it's fun if you think trying to predict future damage (and whether someone else will heal them up first) is the most skillful thing there is, but it means that situational awareness is largely unnecessary, and you don't need to think much about how the CH will bounce because you only have ~3 options for who to cast it on anyway.