So I read Rise of the Horde, and now I'm confused about WoD.

[JustRob]

In Warlords of Draenor, Garrosh arrives a couple of days before the orcs are supposed to drink the demon blood. Just in time to warn them and stop them from doing so. Grom Hellscream then becomes warchief of the Iron Horde.

When compared to Rise of the Horde, that makes no sense at all. In the novel, Blackhand had been elected warchief of the Horde long before they ever drank the demon blood. They had slaughtered hundreds of draenei long before drinking the blood. Hell, even their skin was turning green already. The warlocks already existed, and the Shadow Council had been in power for as long as Blackhand had been warchief. They only drank the demon blood when only Shattrath was left, the draenei's last stronghold.

In WoD, things are completely different. Blackhand isn't warchief yet, the clans are divided, there's no apparent Shadow Council in place, and most jarring of all, the draenei are still numerous and prospering.

It seems like there are huge differences between the main timeline and the alternate timeline, even before Garrosh intervened. In fact, Mannoroth is not even present when the orcs drink the demon blood in the novel, yet he's standing right there in the WoD opening cinematic.

Weird.

Also, I have one more question about the main universe itself, something that doesn't make much sense. Right after invading Azeroth, it says Gul'dan banished the Frostwolves to Alterac Mountains. Now how the hell did they get there? The orcs came through the portal in the Swamp of Sorrows (then the Black Morass), which is at the very south of the Eastern Kingdoms, and the Alterac Mountains is in the far north. The Frostwolves would have had to travel through human and dwarven lands to get to Alterac, even through Lordaeron. How did nobody notice that?

[ItachiZaku]

Alternate Universe makes everything irrelevant. It's their loophole to sell this shit.

[Thimagryn]

Alternate universe, and the fact that the story is being written as it goes.

Rise of the Horde itself is a retcon of much of what's in the Warcraft 1 + 2 manuals.

The Warcraft Chronicles book is supposed to be the new definitive source of lore, but even it will be made irrelevant sooner or later. Retcons are inevitable since Blizzard doesn't have a good long-term story plan for Warcraft. It's progress is heavily driven by gameplay content and the social shift of the audience. They can't write a 10-year narrative and plan to stick to it if people decidedly hate a particular direction that forces them to change their tune.

[Obelisk Kai]

Clearly given what is in game right now, Rise of the Horde must be regarded as a flawed approximation rather than a 100% accurate representation.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Warlords of Draenor never happened.
Apply Directly to the forehead.
Warlords of Draenor never happened.
Apply Directly to the forehead.
Warlords of Draenor never happened.
Apply Directly to the forehead.

[Deleted]

Also, I have one more question about the main universe itself, something that doesn't make much sense. Right after invading Azeroth, it says Gul'dan banished the Frostwolves to Alterac Mountains. Now how the hell did they get there? The orcs came through the portal in the Swamp of Sorrows (then the Black Morass), which is at the very south of the Eastern Kingdoms, and the Alterac Mountains is in the far north. The Frostwolves would have had to travel through human and dwarven lands to get to Alterac, even through Lordaeron. How did nobody notice that?

I think I can answer this one.

The Horde took over the southern part of Eastern Kingdoms pretty quickly and sacked Stormwind. Then they turned north and gained victory after victory. They couldn't be stopped it seemed. Heck, even when Silvermoon aided the Human alliance they pushed them back into their forests. But they didnt pursue the Elves, they could've sacked Silvermoon as well but they went for Lordaeron first. Silvermoon got lucky there.

So they went for Lordaeron and they were basically on their doorstep, it was only a matter of time before Lordaeron would be sacked as well and the Horde would've been victorious and would've conquered the entire continent. But then Gul'dan betrayed them and the Horde turned to fighting themselves. That's when the Alliance saw their chance and fought the Horde back all the way to Blackrock Mountain and eventually past the Dark Portal.

Anyway, to answer your question. You say the Frostwolves were banished shortly after the Horde invaded Azeroth. That doesn't contradict anything as far as I know since the Horde took over the entire continent in a relatively short time. So if Gul'dan had banished the Frostwolves a few weeks after entering Azeroth then couldn't that be halfway through the second war? Alterac mountains would've been in reach by then.

[JustRob]

I think I can answer this one.

The Horde took over the southern part of Eastern Kingdoms pretty quickly and sacked Stormwind. Then they turned north and gained victory after victory. They couldn't be stopped it seemed. Heck, even when Silvermoon aided the Human alliance they pushed them back into their forests. But they didnt pursue the Elves, they could've sacked Silvermoon as well but they went for Lordaeron first. Silvermoon got lucky there.

So they went for Lordaeron and they were basically on their doorstep, it was only a matter of time before Lordaeron would be sacked as well and the Horde would've been victorious and would've conquered the entire continent. But then Gul'dan betrayed them and the Horde turned to fighting themselves. That's when the Alliance saw their chance and fought the Horde back all the way to Blackrock Mountain and eventually past the Dark Portal.

Anyway, to answer your question. You say the Frostwolves were banished shortly after the Horde invaded Azeroth. That doesn't contradict anything as far as I know since the Horde took over the entire continent in a relatively short time. So if Gul'dan had banished the Frostwolves a few weeks after entering Azeroth then couldn't that be halfway through the second war? Alterac mountains would've been in reach by then.

It's difficult to believe the First War ended in a matter of weeks. But I guess that's the only explanation that works.

[Brytallica]

Blizzard is not consistent with Lore. There are many discrepancies across the RTS, WoW, and the books. They have rewritten things if it fit the current game story. There is no official canon.

Wowpedia is great at keeping track of all things Lore, including what devs have said.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Frostwolf_clan

[DarkTZeratul]

Warlords of Draenor is an alternate timeline in which things went a bit differently even before Garrosh arrived (including Garrosh never having been born).

Most notably, Ner'zhul's wife Rulkan wasn't dead, so Kil'jaeden just went straight for Gul'dan. As a result, the Horde hadn't really formed into a cohesive whole yet when Gul'dan offered them Mannoroth's blood.

[TheCount]

From a lore point of view, forget WoD. The AU thing made it so that they could do whatever they wanted with the story without impacting previous established lore.

[Kathranis]

In Warlords of Draenor, Garrosh arrives a couple of days before the orcs are supposed to drink the demon blood. Just in time to warn them and stop them from doing so. Grom Hellscream then becomes warchief of the Iron Horde.

Way more than "a couple of days before."

When compared to Rise of the Horde, that makes no sense at all. In the novel, Blackhand had been elected warchief of the Horde long before they ever drank the demon blood. They had slaughtered hundreds of draenei long before drinking the blood. Hell, even their skin was turning green already. The warlocks already existed, and the Shadow Council had been in power for as long as Blackhand had been warchief. They only drank the demon blood when only Shattrath was left, the draenei's last stronghold.

In WoD, things are completely different. Blackhand isn't warchief yet, the clans are divided, there's no apparent Shadow Council in place, and most jarring of all, the draenei are still numerous and prospering.

Because it's an alternate timeline with a different history. Read the short stories.

Rul'kan never died -> Ner'zhul wasn't tricked by Kil'jaeden -> Elder Shaman didn't band the orcs together to fight the draenei -> no Horde

Kil'jaeden goes to Gul'dan -> Gul'dan tries to unite the orcs -> Garrosh undermines him -> Hellscream convinces orcs to fight the Legion -> Mannorth reveals himself and is killed -> Iron Horde

In fact, Mannoroth is not even present when the orcs drink the demon blood in the novel, yet he's standing right there in the WoD opening cinematic.

He was there but had no reason to reveal himself.

Also, I have one more question about the main universe itself, something that doesn't make much sense. Right after invading Azeroth, it says Gul'dan banished the Frostwolves to Alterac Mountains. Now how the hell did they get there? The orcs came through the portal in the Swamp of Sorrows (then the Black Morass), which is at the very south of the Eastern Kingdoms, and the Alterac Mountains is in the far north. The Frostwolves would have had to travel through human and dwarven lands to get to Alterac, even through Lordaeron. How did nobody notice that?

He banished them from the Horde. They wandered and eventually reached Alterac. Their travels weren't really chronicled, since Durotan wasn't a character in WC1-2. The movies will probably give some sort of (semi-canon) explaination.

[Pandragon]

Alternate universe, and the fact that the story is being written as it goes.

Rise of the Horde itself is a retcon of much of what's in the Warcraft 1 + 2 manuals.

The Warcraft Chronicles book is supposed to be the new definitive source of lore, but even it will be made irrelevant sooner or later. Retcons are inevitable since Blizzard doesn't have a good long-term story plan for Warcraft. It's progress is heavily driven by gameplay content and the social shift of the audience. They can't write a 10-year narrative and plan to stick to it if people decidedly hate a particular direction that forces them to change their tune.

no they have a good long term story plan. problem is the writers they have now come up with new lore, and just change old lore when it doesnt fit with the new one. rather than making the new lore fit the old.

[Talen]

There's no real connection between RotH and WoD. Some of the events and people involved may be similar....but it's still a different universe with it's own timeline.

EJL

[Orly]

It's difficult to believe the First War ended in a matter of weeks. But I guess that's the only explanation that works.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/First_War

Apparently it lasted either a year, 5-6 or 10/15 depending on where you place its start. Also the First War is basically orcs conquering Stormwind, unlike Hardstyler's post which describes the first 2 wars together.

[Talen]

It's difficult to believe the First War ended in a matter of weeks. But I guess that's the only explanation that works.

Except for the whole 'Stormwind was besieged for 5 years bit'.

EJL

[Rivin]

There was way more than two days between Garrosh's arrival and Grom rejecting the demon blood. I'm not sure if the actual timeframe was mentioned anywhere, but when Garrosh meets with Gul'dan some time after his arrival he specifically says that the demon blood event is three days away. Before that Garrosh had to kill Kairoz, fight in a duel to prove his worth, meet up with Grom, convince Grom that he's not crazy, show Grom a vision of our Azeroth, kill the elder shaman, meet up with Blackhand, get the Iron Stars and other tech in production, and then be sent to meet with Gul'dan. Considering that they were still using runners as messengers at that time, it's likely that those events took at least several weeks, especially since they already had the Iron Stars ready by the time they confronted Mannoroth.

[Orly]

I think I can answer this one.

The Horde took over the southern part of Eastern Kingdoms pretty quickly and sacked Stormwind. Then they turned north and gained victory after victory. They couldn't be stopped it seemed. Heck, even when Silvermoon aided the Human alliance they pushed them back into their forests. But they didnt pursue the Elves, they could've sacked Silvermoon as well but they went for Lordaeron first. Silvermoon got lucky there.

So they went for Lordaeron and they were basically on their doorstep, it was only a matter of time before Lordaeron would be sacked as well and the Horde would've been victorious and would've conquered the entire continent. But then Gul'dan betrayed them and the Horde turned to fighting themselves. That's when the Alliance saw their chance and fought the Horde back all the way to Blackrock Mountain and eventually past the Dark Portal.

Anyway, to answer your question. You say the Frostwolves were banished shortly after the Horde invaded Azeroth. That doesn't contradict anything as far as I know since the Horde took over the entire continent in a relatively short time. So if Gul'dan had banished the Frostwolves a few weeks after entering Azeroth then couldn't that be halfway through the second war? Alterac mountains would've been in reach by then.

That's a gross overestimation, given that they had their reinforcements cut off from them in Alterac by Stromgarde and, if i'm not mistaking, the Alliance had ships ready to provide aid from the recently reclaimed Tol Barad. So no, they wouldn't have conquered shit and Gul'dan's betrayal only sealed the outcome one way whereas if he wouldn't have deserted it could have ended either ways

From http://wow.gamepedia.com/Second_War

Alterac's betrayal had let the entire Horde army through to the walls of Lordaeron, and they began sieging the capital. Troops from Stromgarde cut off all remaining Horde reinforcements in Alterac and imprisoned Perenolde for his treason. The whole of the Alliance army converged on the Horde, but were unable to defeat them at first.

That line alone tells you that the Alliance had at least equal footing, if not the upper hand.

[taheen74]

no they have a good long term story plan. problem is the writers they have now come up with new lore, and just change old lore when it doesnt fit with the new one. rather than making the new lore fit the old.

Sounds like what King did tto the Gunslinger. He went and changed some stuff in the original Dark Tower story just so it would fit in with the final books better.

[Deleted]

WoD is a non canon fan fic bullshit story. There you have your answer.

[Deleted]

In Warlords of Draenor, Garrosh arrives a couple of days before the orcs are supposed to drink the demon blood.

From the Hellscream short story:
"How long do we have, stranger?" "Months. Beyond that, I do not know."