De-homogenization of Mages, what do you want to see?

[Obelisk Kai]

The PvP-centered talents aren't that bad by themselves. It just that no one cares for breakable roots in raids or challenge modes as opposed to hard CC like stuns. With the removal of Shatter any synergy for the other specs got removed as well. It would be nice if things like Frostjaw and Ice Ward morphed to become new fire or arcane spells.

I also wish Frost would not be the pet spec. I liked the water elemental more when it was a temporary summon. The idea of getting a permanent elemental is still great to have as a talent though. I'd take a ~12% damage buff from a pet's auto attacks over the passive ~12% damage modifier of RoP/IF any day.

i think it is important to move past the fixation on the pet.

I do not see the pet becoming optional, it is simply too bound up with the fantasy of frost as Blizzard sees it (exemplified by Jaina).

From Blizzard's perspective, it is likely that the choice of having a pet or not is the choice of being Frost or not. If you don't want to have pet, Fire and Arcane are there. After all, we can see a similar dynamic now being implemented with Hunters with the difference between ranged beastmastery and ranged marksmanship is the presence of the pet.

With water jet and ranged freeze, I would expect the pet to become MORE and not less important to frost than it already is.

[Deleted]

i think it is important to move past the fixation on the pet.

I do not see the pet becoming optional, it is simply too bound up with the fantasy of frost as Blizzard sees it (exemplified by Jaina).

From Blizzard's perspective, it is likely that the choice of having a pet or not is the choice of being Frost or not. If you don't want to have pet, Fire and Arcane are there. After all, we can see a similar dynamic now being implemented with Hunters with the difference between ranged beastmastery and ranged marksmanship is the presence of the pet.

With water jet and ranged freeze, I would expect the pet to become MORE and not less important to frost than it already is.

Unless frost was changed in a way where you didn't really have permanent elementals but say the mastery could cause your spells to summon elementals that charge/do a tsunami kinda wave type thing at the target.

Would certainly be more interesting visually/thematically than icicles.
Could have a talent making a wele permanent but it either changes the mastery or i dunno what to be honest.

Not something i've ever really though about but seeing as someone brought it up i guess it could be cool.
Only real water elemental changes i'd like to see are 1)the ai glyph being baked in, don't see any reason why it shouldn't be. 2) some kind of walk on water/frost path type thing.

[Sarm]

From Blizzard's perspective, it is likely that the choice of having a pet or not is the choice of being Frost or not. If you don't want to have pet, Fire and Arcane are there. After all, we can see a similar dynamic now being implemented with Hunters with the difference between ranged beastmastery and ranged marksmanship is the presence of the pet.

For me, the problem with this is that when you're outside of a raid, to me, arcane doesn't feel quite as solid as frost and fire feels like complete ass. So anyone who doesn't want a pet in this situation is stuck with the choice of feeling effective, or staying away from the pet. Which is probably why some of them rolled mage over warlock to begin with.


I never really got the hate for the level 45 row. Aren't specs separated enough by element already? And why does it matter that the row doesn't have anything to do with a typical raid boss fight? It never struck me as a PVP row but just an overall defensive one that isn't related to absorbs or heals. I never understood why people want to get rid of it or shunt it off to a PVP talent row. I figure all that'll happen is that it gets replaced with another stupid and generic damage increasing row that everyone knows will just get balanced around in the first place, so in practice it probably wouldn't bring anything positive to the class anyway.

[Barnham]

I had a thought here about Fire, my beloved baby from Vanilla.

Fire now uses a new resource, informed heavily by the old Hot Streak system. Scorch, Fireball, and Frostfire Bolt? have a (let's say) 65 percent chance to generate a charge of (let's say) Hot streak. Fire Blast always generates a charge of Hot Streak. You can store up to 4 Hot Streak charges, and you consume 2 charges to cast an instant Pyroblast. Pyroblast crits reset the CD on Fire Blast. Maybe fire Mastery increases the magnitude of crits? Now Fire get's to keep a lot of its playstyle of relying on RNG to set up a critical-mass-type situation where it chains big bursty doom balls together while still favoring crit. Any mechanic that guarantees critical hits is awful because of the way it affects scaling, and we all know it. This is an indelicate solution, but one that's simple and keeps the fantasy alive.

I still want more direct damage, less cleaving, and better AoE. Kael'Thas was my favorite hero in WC3 after Anub'Arak and Kel'Thuzad. Bring back Flame Strike from WC3 that melts enemies foolish enough to stay in one place.

I do agree that my vision for fire steps on Arcane's toes, but that is a spec of worms that I'm not even close to wanting to open...

[Polarthief]

Think you've pretty much nailed the general consensus there Polar.
Only thing i'd add is quite a few people (myself included) have said that as mages we should be casted a multitude of spells from the schools of magic rather than just pretty much exclusively one. If not time/space, perhaps that could be arcanes niche, a mutli-school caster using arcane to boost the spells or alter them somehow.

Edit: I just really want to see a mage spec that uses frost/fire/arcane all in one spec. Not a niche use of spells either.

I disagree a bit with what I've posted; I think there's plenty more problems (and I know others do), I was just compiling a list of stuff we do actually agree on as a community, and I feel like people who disagree with that list are far and few between. As far as other issues, those are for another time, but those 4 points are the key components to the "biggest issues" we all agree on.

While that fantasy is understandable it is hard to realise when our specs themselves are based on the damage types. It creates a contradiction that will only be resolved in favor of increased specialization.

To do what you are asking under the current design goal of an enhanced spec fantasy, they would essentially have to scrap the Mage as is and start over with each spec having a new anchor, and they aren't going to do that.

But they don't have to be based just on the damage types (because then you literally have the same spec with 3 colors), but can also be based on how they work. Arcane is the single-target turret, Fire is the mobile DoTter, and Frost is the machine gun ice splitter that REALLY needs a better fantasy with Multistrike going away.

I also wish Frost would not be the pet spec. I liked the water elemental more when it was a temporary summon. The idea of getting a permanent elemental is still great to have as a talent though. I'd take a ~12% damage buff from a pet's auto attacks over the passive ~12% damage modifier of RoP/IF any day.

A lot of Frost Mages agree with that sentiment, myself included. At the very least, if he's permanent, he needs to be nameable! But yeah, I'd kill to have a L100 talent let me swap between pet and no pet. Forcing pets in a non-pet class is dumb. With Demo, it's understandable, but Destro and Affliction have the choice. Same with Hunters (though they won't in Legion).

i think it is important to move past the fixation on the pet.

I do not see the pet becoming optional, it is simply too bound up with the fantasy of frost as Blizzard sees it (exemplified by Jaina).

Jaina's Water Elemental has always been temporary. WC3 and HotS both have temporary Water Elementals.

From Blizzard's perspective, it is likely that the choice of having a pet or not is the choice of being Frost or not. If you don't want to have pet, Fire and Arcane are there. After all, we can see a similar dynamic now being implemented with Hunters with the difference between ranged beastmastery and ranged marksmanship is the presence of the pet.

With water jet and ranged freeze, I would expect the pet to become MORE and not less important to frost than it already is.

Except Hunters are the "Pet Class". Warlocks are also a "Pet Class". Mages are NOT a pet class, so forcing people to use a pet is just silly. Telling someone "oh just reroll a spec" isn't really an option when we didn't even have the damn thing until BC, and it was made permanent in Wrath. Hunters and Warlocks have had pets since VANILLA, as they were the Pet Classes. It also wouldn't be a big problem if they had a talent to turn it into a temporary cooldown or even make it fuse with the Mage. That could easily be put into the fantasy. I mean, if they're gonna shit on Frost fantasy with raid bosses you can't freeze anyways...

I still want more direct damage, less cleaving, and better AoE. Kael'Thas was my favorite hero in WC3 after Anub'Arak and Kel'Thuzad. Bring back Flame Strike from WC3 that melts enemies foolish enough to stay in one place.

It doesn't matter if even Blizzard themselves say it: Kael'Thas is a Destruction Warlock who has some Mage spells. We will never be like Kael'Thas, even if we have his sword (that looks like ass) in Legion.

[Deleted]

Why are you bothered by the pet? I personally don't even notice it exists anymore. A lot of "most mages believe" flies around while it seems a minority posts a lot while most lurk.


Pets add a unique element to the mechanics of gameplay: They can cast simultaneously with the player.

It makes a spec more complex and interesting. Remove the pet and the player can only cast singularly.

[Sarm]

I don't even like my battle pets following me around, nevermind something that's supposed to be part of my damage. When I'm on my mage, I just prefer that 100% of my damage comes directly from my own character. I only put up with the spec last expansion because as an LFR-only player, fire felt even worse (plus I hated the AT-PoM Pyro gimmick) and arcane felt even more constricted since I always ran around with Incanter's Ward.

The very last thing I wanted was to interact with the damn thing, so as soon as I was able to start leveling again after MoP, I instantly swapped to fire just to get away with it. Even though it made my experience suffer a lot for it because of how the pruning felt like it ravaged arcane and fire for me.

[Imnick]

Like or not, "has a pet" is a very strong mark of difference between specs. As differentiating specs is Blizzard's design goal this expansion, the chances of it going away are slimmer than they've ever been.
Even if we already had a talent that removed it, I'd not be surprised if this expansion took it away. It almost certainly won't add one.

[Polarthief]

Why are you bothered by the pet? I personally don't even notice it exists anymore. A lot of "most mages believe" flies around while it seems a minority posts a lot while most lurk.


Pets add a unique element to the mechanics of gameplay: They can cast simultaneously with the player.

It makes a spec more complex and interesting. Remove the pet and the player can only cast singularly.

You know what's fun? Not having your pet in range of your new target, so you spam Water Jet hoping it will do something. "Use the glyph!" I'd rather not, assuming it's still bugged, and even if it isn't, I don't have the slot for it.

You know what else is fun? When certain mechanics target your pet and kill him. Dungeons may be "irrelevant", but one of the last trash enemies in Auchindoun always, I mean "100% of the time he does this", targets my pet with an Immolate that is guaranteed to kill him. I am not exaggerating when I say it's 100%, and I'm sure there will be a few mechanics in Legion, maybe even in a raid, that does this.

Some people simply don't like pets, and people who played Mage since Vanilla/BC never had a permanent pet, then was suddenly forced to have one. It should be optional through a glyph/talent.

Like or not, "has a pet" is a very strong mark of difference between specs. As differentiating specs is Blizzard's design goal this expansion, the chances of it going away are slimmer than they've ever been.

The problem with Water Elemental is how little you interact with it that it might as well not be there. Though, if they made more interaction with it, it needs to have the glyph (that follows you) be a passive and not be something that should be forced on the player, since at that point, it's really not choice, similarly to Splitting Ice (it also shouldn't be a glyph).

[Deleted]

The problem with Water Elemental is how little you interact with it that it might as well not be there. Though, if they made more interaction with it, it needs to have the glyph (that follows you) be a passive and not be something that should be forced on the player, since at that point, it's really not choice, similarly to Splitting Ice (it also shouldn't be a glyph).

Looking at other petclasses Waterjet is really unique and imho the only real interaction between pet and player. Hunters and WLs just click a button and the pet does an action. Thats far more similar to maybe CS or IN.
For Waterjet the pet has to cast together with you. Its not the holy grail of interaction but its more then the simple Frostnova from the start of MoP.

[Polarthief]

Looking at other petclasses Waterjet is really unique and imho the only real interaction between pet and player. Hunters and WLs just click a button and the pet does an action. Thats far more similar to maybe CS or IN.
For Waterjet the pet has to cast together with you. Its not the holy grail of interaction but its more then the simple Frostnova from the start of MoP.

I'm not so much upset about Water Jet, I just wish that the glyph wasn't bugged and baseline (or just give Water Jet a 100 yard range, lol). Then, I'd at least have some less frustration with it, but I'd still have some annoyances (such as it dying to practically any targeted spell on it and it being buggy when you go to a different phase/zone during an encounter). I'd still love some form of talent to merge with it, but eh, getting my hopes up.

[Deleted]

If the technical issues bother you about the pet fix those rather than mixing abstract concepts of lore with core mechanics of gameplay (a common mistake in here). For instance the glyph could be removed and the pet could always be 'smart' and at very close range to the mage or with a 100 yd range able to cast while moving or whatnot. At the end of the day the pet is not an ornament to lore to make it look pretty, it offers a unique element to gameplay since it's the only way to cast 2 spells simultaneously in this game.

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Hell, they could even "infuse" the pet inside the mage for all I care. So that it can cast the same way but without it running about. It would be the same for gameplay.

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I'll just send that last bit as a suggestion because it's pretty unique.

[Emeraldon]

Some people simply don't like pets, and people who played Mage since Vanilla/BC never had a permanent pet, then was suddenly forced to have one. It should be optional through a glyph/talent.



The problem with Water Elemental is how little you interact with it that it might as well not be there. Though, if they made more interaction with it, it needs to have the glyph (that follows you) be a passive and not be something that should be forced on the player, since at that point, it's really not choice, similarly to Splitting Ice (it also shouldn't be a glyph).

I love my welly. But, I agree with you in terms of some more customization. I'd also like to have the option to glyph or talent it away, and I would absolutely love for it to have a bigger role. I still dont' get why we can't name the pet either. We also had the ability to heal it at some point, which was also taken away..

[Polarthief]

At the end of the day the pet is not an ornament to lore to make it look pretty, it offers a unique element to gameplay since it's the only way to cast 2 spells simultaneously in this game.

Really? So all my spells that are off the GCD can't be cast simultaneously with other spells off the GCD and 1 spell that's on the GCD? I guess I've been using cooldown macros incorrectly for years now!

Hell, they could even "infuse" the pet inside the mage for all I care. So that it can cast the same way but without it running about. It would be the same for gameplay.

It'd make it a hell of a lot better, that's for sure. You could remove the pet entirely and just have the Mage shoot a Waterbolt at the same rate a Welly would, and have Freeze/WJ work the exact same way: stay off the GCD and have both be castable while another spell is casting, similar to Evanesce and Icy Floes.

Or y'know, make it a glyph/talent with some kind of damage boost or something because I'm sure the other two choices would be an increase.

I love my welly. But, I agree with you in terms of some more customization. I'd also like to have the option to glyph or talent it away, and I would absolutely love for it to have a bigger role. I still dont' get why we can't name the pet either. We also had the ability to heal it at some point, which was also taken away..

I only want it to have more roles if we can: Heal it like Hunters/Warlocks can heal their pets (or have passives that just heal them innately), as well as giving it a non-range issue. It moves SO bloody slow and if you target something a bit further away (say a Doomfire Spirit on Archimonde), you're going to immediately have range issues.

[Deleted]

It'd make it a hell of a lot better, that's for sure.

That amazingly amazing idea of mine was fine and well, though I guess it may make the game too cryptic (especially to beginners to the class). Perhaps it might be best to make the pet much, much smarter. For instance make the glyph the default, and make it even more convenient, more smart, or more configurable.

[Deleted]

That amazingly amazing idea of mine was fine and well, though I guess it may make the game too cryptic (especially to beginners to the class). Perhaps it might be best to make the pet much, much smarter. For instance make the glyph the default, and make it even more convenient, more smart, or more configurable.

Combing of the elemental and a mage though, just seems a bit... shamany?

[Polarthief]

Combing of the elemental and a mage though, just seems a bit... shamany?

Just like having the "Iconic Fire Mage Hero" be a Blood Mage/Destruction Warlock? Does class lore and identity even exist or matter anymore?

[Deleted]

On the subject of Kael'thas (and other notable mage NPCs), I have noticed something peculiar when it comes to their influence on the mage class. I hope I am not the only one with this major gripe.

Whenever a NPC or boss does something cool and appropriate for the class, the devs can use that as an inspiration for a class ability. It might feel a bit out of place lore-wise or display some odd power creep, but it still becomes a class ability because it's cool and looks fun. DKs get several abilities used from the Lich King fight, druids can for some reason morph into a saberon form, rogues can leap into the air like that mandid paragon. The worst offender in that regard are the locks; they can pretty much contol any notable demon, got the cosmetic effect of Kael's veridant spheres from a minor glyph, and have a talent based on major Legion figures. They got their special green fire quest to boot.

However, if mages are to get something equally as cool or powerful, the lore arguments begin. We can't summon a phoenix because Kael has to remain unique. No actual verdant sphere mechanics (like Kael's passive in HotS) either. Mass teleportation around the battlefield is a no go (but the warlock portal is a-ok). Abilities ripped off Khardgar or Medivh are too powerful somehow. Spells displayed by the Blue dragons or the elites of the Kirin Tor/Silvermoon Magisters have to remain confined to them. If the devs are so reluctant to use powers used by mage heroes, no wonder the spec identity of the class is so shallow and watered down.

[Imnick]

Flame Orb (which became Frost Orb) was actually an ability taken directly from a WotLK boss fight, it's not something that never happens for the Mage class or anything.

[Polarthief]

Flame Orb (which became Frost Orb) was actually an ability taken directly from a WotLK boss fight, it's not something that never happens for the Mage class or anything.

And just like that boss fight it was taken from, it was long forgotten. Woulda been nice to get the ICC version over the shitty Old Kingdom version, but you know... Can't be that OP.

Similarly, if we got Runemaster Molgeim's Rune of Power (awesome looking, shining light circle, 50% damage), I probably wouldn't have minded it as much.

PS: Neither of these abilities came from iconic Mages.