Really excited with the 6.2.2 buffs to WW

[Kinchouka]

Anyone able to generate the Sim-Math for Windwalker compared to all the other classes / specs?
Only asking because I'm pretty dumb with Simcraft / advanced tools like that...

http://kinchouk.free.fr/reports/Raid_T18M.html

Shadow priest buffs are not yet coded btw.

[archkiller]

http://kinchouk.free.fr/reports/Raid_T18M.html

Shadow priest buffs are not yet coded btw.

The chart don't make sense. Sub rogue get buff to do 99k dps?

[Shadow Fox]

The chart don't make sense. Sub rogue get buff to do 99k dps?

That is a Mythic Sim.
I changed the M in the address to a H to get the one I wanted, but there doesn't seem to be a Sim for Normal.

[Deleted]

so 6.2.2 is gonna be serenity time? or still chiexp better in single?

[asapeazy]

Those buffs are welcome. My DPs is already pretty good but this will give me that extra edge.

[Babylonius]

so 6.2.2 is gonna be serenity time? or still chiexp better in single?

As it's been said 100x, Serenity is still better for single target on average. However due to the number of proc chances, smoothness of rotation and damage, and ranged attack ability, ChiEx closed the gap to be nearly comparable, or even better with great luck. Think of Serenity as having a higher average but lower max, while ChiEx has a lower average but higher theoretical max.

The buffs coming in 6.2.2, as it's been said in this thread and others, will further widen the gap between Serenity and ChiEx. ChiEx will still have the higher possible max, but Serenity's average will pull further ahead of ChiEx's average.

[Tibbets]

As it's been said 100x, Serenity is still better for single target on average. However due to the number of proc chances, smoothness of rotation and damage, and ranged attack ability, ChiEx closed the gap to be nearly comparable, or even better with great luck. Think of Serenity as having a higher average but lower max, while ChiEx has a lower average but higher theoretical max.

The buffs coming in 6.2.2, as it's been said in this thread and others, will further widen the gap between Serenity and ChiEx. ChiEx will still have the higher possible max, but Serenity's average will pull further ahead of ChiEx's average.

With that said. Overall, is the return on investment for a WW in the "average mythic raid team" going to be higher with multistrike enchants or pure chiEX build with haste enchants?

[Babylonius]

With that said. Overall, is the return on investment for a WW in the "average mythic raid team" going to be higher with multistrike enchants or pure chiEX build with haste enchants?

The difference is very very small, with the changes in 6.2.2, Haste is still best for CX, but Multistrike has closed the gap a bit and is close behind. Multistrike is still the best for Serenity but with the class trinket and 4pc, haste has closed the gap there as well.

Personally, it depends on what you're progressing on, I'm progressing on Xhul and Tyrant, so I'm sticking full haste. If you're earlier in Mythic, or still in Heroic, you may see better returns on Multistrike. I'd much prefer to go back to multistrike, but I'm on the fights designed for CX and haste, so I'm staying.

[Adus]

The difference is very very small, with the changes in 6.2.2, Haste is still best for CX, but Multistrike has closed the gap a bit and is close behind. Multistrike is still the best for Serenity but with the class trinket and 4pc, haste has closed the gap there as well.

Personally, it depends on what you're progressing on, I'm progressing on Xhul and Tyrant, so I'm sticking full haste. If you're earlier in Mythic, or still in Heroic, you may see better returns on Multistrike. I'd much prefer to go back to multistrike, but I'm on the fights designed for CX and haste, so I'm staying.

Is there any consideration to be given to the fact that we get 15% extra multistrike? So we're getting more 'bang for our buck' with it? Or is it not enough to really matter in cases like yours?

[Deleted]

Yes. All the calculations / simulations are usually done considering the 15% extra multistrike. The 15% extra are the only thing that make multistrike so strong compared to the other stats. Since they removed the proc chance of Tiger Strikes from our autoattack multistrikes, we don't really gain any other advantage from it. The fact that Tiger Strikes is an increased multistrike chance even increases the scaling of other stats relative to it. So it's kinda weird to be our "special" stat.

[Deleted]

This was fun thread to read

I started to play WW @ HFC start and was hitting my head to wall while yelling why this class is so bad and why did i even choose this to my new main... My opinion has changed fully. What i learned was this class has, like said, very high skill cap and while i was standing with my 700~ilvl without skill and T18 pieces, i was dps racing against our tanks... NOT_FUN_AT_ALL.

After a while i first got my 2p and had gain some skill, i started to gain better results. i wasn't top in any fights, but i beat tanks and our other monk which plays WW as OS. After i got 4P and trinket my thoughts were WOAH WTF JUST HAPPENED! i still wasn't top, but i fought top5 dps (in our raid group) for a short moment in many fights. Not sure, but i think it was coz adds were alive a little longer.
After others started to get more gear, i ended to be above average dps almost in every fight. I came in solution i still was playing bad.

For 3 resets now, i've been playing fully ChiEx and i just simply love it. I've climbed from above average to top5 again except few fights, but im ok with it since i know its doable if i just play better in those... Just a bit hard coz every coming reset those fights will be a little shorter and starting burst will matter more.

Im doing now 75%-95% in warcraft logs and i got plenty of stuff to improve, but watching our raidgroup 8 melees which most of them are pretty high skilled (imo) and me ending up as top4 melee in most of the fights, i say monks are in good standing right now. Especially in progression when fights are longer.

Oh, and i didn't even mention our mobility and surviving!

About the 6.2.2 buffs, im afraid i have to start learn how to use serenity and chi brew.. on the other hand i kinda know im gonna be killin' it for the most of the time after i get the enough skill for ST (Serenity/CB).

For those whining about bad class and gear, class is fine and gear will come eventually.

[Xiaojin]

I recently had a similar experience, Kupton. Though I haven't played Windwalker as my main spec for a while (last time was in 5.4 and even then only for a short time before Brewmaster became my main spec; also only after playing my Paladin for a very long time) I'm still somewhat experienced as a Windwalker. But the you really do notice the set bonuses a lot as a Windwalker. Getting 2p was noticable and getting 4p was even more noticable in my DPS. Too bad I still don't have the class trinket and a lot of gear I get has Mastery on it. I blame those two factors, especially the later, on why I'm usually in the bottom 5 of DPS. Well, eventually good leather gear, that nobody else wants, will drop and I'll get it despite being at the bottom of the "gear (food) chain" so to speak (joined a new guild recently because all the raiders of my old one left).

I'm still hoping that there will be some ChiEx buff or that they revert the BoK buff, but TBH I do not see that happening any time soon. I just don't like the Chi Brew/Serenity gameplay, ChiEx so much more compelling. Which is funny, because I initially disliked the idea of ChiEx when I read about it due to a sort of lack of control of how much chi it consumes. Now that I have enough experience with either talent I like ChiEx so much more than Serenity...

[Babylonius]

If you like ChiEx better and have much more experience with it then stick with it, specially if you've been seeing better results with it. Not everyone is going to see the best results from the best methods. If something works for you and you can back it up with results then don't force yourself to enjoy the spec and game less because something is best practice.

[Xiaojin]

The thing is that I know how to play with Serenity. I will most likely make a few mistakes at first (like using Serenity just before the boss leaps away) until I get used to using Serenity on the HFC fights. But I guess that with a little practice I will get better results out of it. I've used it before and I did get good results out of it back then. And if your goal is to get through Mythic (we're at 3/13M right now) you should consider optimizing your performance to a reasonable degree. E.g. I won't change races, the benefits are too small really to justify that IMHO. But do I dislike Serenity (compared to ChiEx anyway; it's not really bad by itself) really that much to not take advantage of the additional DPS I would gain?
I'm considering changing my enchants to MS and using Serenity where appropriate this weekend already despite the changes not being on Live yet. Part of it is because I'll most likely have to anyway and part of it is because I still don't have my class trinket (and I already killed Archimonde on Normal this week; was happy when a proper token dropped, rolled a 89, but then I lost to a 95 ).

But generally I agree with you. People should play what they like and what they're good at. You get better results that way. I met only few people who are really that good at learning new stuff that they can easily switch around talents that signficantly change gameplay, specs or even classes without long(-ish) periods of bad results.

[Notter]

But generally I agree with you. People should play what they like and what they're good at.

Highly disagree.
yes, learning a new class or spec is a bit extreme, but changing from chiX to serenity?

1st of all, it's not such a major change, so i don't see what's to "like".
and 2nd, what if it's a fight where AoE will be detrimental? you'd still do Chix?

personally if i was a raid leader, and someone chooses wrong talents, just cause he doesn't like to "correct" ones, and he performs worst for it, i would consider replacing him.
can't force anyone to play a certain way, but don't have to bring them.

anyway, @Kupton
It's great to hear you're finding your way with the monk, it's a class that takes quite some time for things to "click" together.
but again... saying monk is in a good place just cause in YOUR raid you're doing well is not super objective..
i already wrote enough about what i think about that, and it's pretty much a fact monk are NOT doing well in single target, cause blizzard have already buffed it, and now are buffing it again.

[Babylonius]

Highly disagree.
yes, learning a new class or spec is a bit extreme, but changing from chiX to serenity?

1st of all, it's not such a major change, so i don't see what's to "like".
and 2nd, what if it's a fight where AoE will be detrimental? you'd still do Chix?

personally if i was a raid leader, and someone chooses wrong talents, just cause he doesn't like to "correct" ones, and he performs worst for it, i would consider replacing him.
can't force anyone to play a certain way, but don't have to bring them.

anyway, @Kupton
It's great to hear you're finding your way with the monk, it's a class that takes quite some time for things to "click" together.
but again... saying monk is in a good place just cause in YOUR raid you're doing well is not super objective..
i already wrote enough about what i think about that, and it's pretty much a fact monk are NOT doing well in single target, cause blizzard have already buffed it, and now are buffing it again.

The vast majority of players, play the game to enjoy it, so playing a talent or spec that they don't like isn't something they'd like to do. What you may have missed in the previous posts was that you can play whatever spec you want, as long as you can back it up with sufficient performance. Its the exact situation we saw with Raitank. Conventional wisdom said that he shouldnt' even attempt Chi Ex on Zakuun, yet he did it bc he enjoys it more and it worked for him. If a raider performs worse for their talent choices than that is one thing. But forcing someone to play with talents they aren't familiar with can result in less DPS with the "optimal" talents.

Monks arent' doing well in single target, hence the buffs coming next week. However, only 1, MAYBE 2 or 3 bosses in HFC are actual "single target" bosses. The use of SEF on nearly all the bosses brings WW more in line with other specs, and on some fights ahead of most of them. HFC is practically designed with Windwalker in mind, so the lack of pure ST damage isn't as important outside of Iron Reaver and Zakuun.

[Xiaojin]

personally if i was a raid leader, and someone chooses wrong talents, just cause he doesn't like to "correct" ones, and he performs worst for it, i would consider replacing him.

Not every guild has an infinite roster. Or an infinite pool of people on the realm to recruit new people from. Sometimes you just have make whatever you got work somehow. Non-optimal choices, which are then executed on (nearly) perfectly, can deliver better results than optimal choices, which are executed in a (very) flawed way.

[Notter]

Yes, of course you're right
but I think it's more probable to perform better with the talents that are designed for the purpose of the what you aim to do.
And in the case of chiX and serenity, I don't believe the difference in gameplay is that different or requires a lot of learning.

And in a more broad way, I've encountered a lot of players (not just monk) that were using the "wrong" spec and were under-performing by a large margin compared to others from the same class with comparable gear.

So in short, if the difference between talents is negligible (like monk right now) yeah choose whatever works for you.
but taking something like RJW instead of Xuen for Zakuun "just cause you like it more" would be completely silly. that's more of where i was going with my previous post.

[Babylonius]

You're taking the most extreme situations possible. The discussion is between Serenity and CX and in that situation, choosing the talent that you're most comfortable and experienced with can have a major effect on your ability to perform.

[Deleted]

Yes, of course you're right
but I think it's more probable to perform better with the talents that are designed for the purpose of the what you aim to do.
And in the case of chiX and serenity, I don't believe the difference in gameplay is that different or requires a lot of learning.

And in a more broad way, I've encountered a lot of players (not just monk) that were using the "wrong" spec and were under-performing by a large margin compared to others from the same class with comparable gear.

So in short, if the difference between talents is negligible (like monk right now) yeah choose whatever works for you.
but taking something like RJW instead of Xuen for Zakuun "just cause you like it more" would be completely silly. that's more of where i was going with my previous post.

I think the hardest part with serenity is keeping ZS, Energizing Brew and ChiBrew on CD. It just takes too much of my attention to handle them well.