Resto - trinket question.

[Deleted]

Hello,

Recently I won Demonic Phylactery (HC) and there has been a problem.
At the moment I run with the Seed of Creation (HC WF) + Auto Repairing Autoclave (HC). In this composition I have a 2151 spirit, which is the amount ideal for my style of play (heavy rejuv user). When I change the Auto-Repairing Autoclave to Demonic Phylactery my spirit falls to 1473, which is a small amount that scares me a little.

Here comes my question: How much spirit is worth the reduction of Demonic Phylactery? I have not tested yet this trinket but I'm afraid that I will very quickly OOM myself with this trinket.

I do not have Felshadow Unstable Emulsion yet, so I can not replace it for Seed of Creation.

Last question: In the future, when I've drop Unstable Emulsion Felshadow it will be best to combine it with Demonic Phylactery or the Seed of Creation (Warforged version of this trinket is doing a really nice healing).

[Ogion]

Here comes my question: How much spirit is worth the reduction of Demonic Phylactery?

Heroic version ~890 spirit

[Deleted]

So can I concluded that a change Auto-Repairing Autoclave to Demonic Phylactery will not reduce my healingu due to the rapid burning out of mana but in that place it will provide me better mana management?

[Hypasonic]

Phalactery is better, also comes with a lot more throughput.

[Aleks0410]

Why not run with autoclave + phylactery?

[Keiyra]

Why not run with autoclave + phylactery?

Most likely because 2 strong regen trinkets is often overkill, and they are trying to determine which one of the two to pair with the Leech trinket?

[Aleks0410]

But define overkill? Too much mana? How does Seed compare to the added spells of Autoclave (and the haste)?

[Hypasonic]

If you're on progress, you're better off with the leech trinket even over autoclave. If you're on farm or looking for ranks, seed (on most stacked fights) is better. You really shouldn't have any need for both the phalactery (Which is your automatic choice regardless) and the autoclave.

[Aleks0410]

I'm sorry, I still don't get the statement "shouldn't need".

All trinkets are throughput trinkets. Autoclave lets you use x amount of spells that you wouldn't have enough mana for without it. You turn the extra mana into healing. Are you saying that it's impossible for you to go OOM if you have Phylactery + Autoclave? Cus in that scenario, yes, I can see it's "overkill" or a waste.

If not, then you need to calculate the healing from Seed and compare it to the "extra spells" from Autoclave (+ the haste). Sure, on a stacked fight, I can see Seed being superior. I don't plan on swapping out my Mythic Autoclave before HC Leech though.

[Tiberria]

I'm sorry, I still don't get the statement "shouldn't need".

All trinkets are throughput trinkets. Autoclave lets you use x amount of spells that you wouldn't have enough mana for without it. You turn the extra mana into healing. Are you saying that it's impossible for you to go OOM if you have Phylactery + Autoclave? Cus in that scenario, yes, I can see it's "overkill" or a waste.

If not, then you need to calculate the healing from Seed and compare it to the "extra spells" from Autoclave (+ the haste). Sure, on a stacked fight, I can see Seed being superior. I don't plan on swapping out my Mythic Autoclave before HC Leech though.

As far as it being impossible to go OOM with Phylactery + Autoclave, it really depends. There is a lot of relatively short fights in this tier, and a significant amount of variance in healing requirements. In a lot of the really short fights, it is next to impossible to OOM with just a Phylactery equipped. For example, looking at Mythic fights:

Assault - Doesn't really matter what you do.
Iron Reaver - The fight is too short for it really to be possible to go OOM on.
Kormrok - An even shorter fight, with even less healing required throughout most of it.
Council - A very long and mana intensive fight (well at least on progression). Would want max regen for this.
Kilrogg - Next to impossible to go OOM - fight is relatively short and nothing to heal on half of it.
Gorefiend - Very mana intensive - especially if you are maxing throughput on the adds. Very possible to OOM and would want max regen.
Socrethar - Medium length fight, but not really mana intensive because most of the healing requirement is single target mana efficient HoTs on debuff targets.
Iskar - Next to impossible to go OOM. Fight is too short and there is so little healing required during most of it.
Zakuun - Next to impossible to go OOM. It's fairly healing intensive but is too short to really stress your mana pool.
Tyrant - Even though it's a short fight, P2 and P3 are incredibly spammy and healing intensive. Can use max regen here.
Xhul'horac - Really short fight and really lax healing requirements outside of tank healing until P3 (it's commonly 3 healed).

I haven't seen the last two Mythic fights yet, but out of the first 11, only Council, Gorefiend and Tyrant really have the healing requirements/patterns that would warrant using Autoclave + Phylactery. On most of the other fights, I would say that you reach a point where more Spirit doesn't really improve your throughput because you can't burn mana fast enough at appropriate times to take advantage of it.

Thankfully, the Leech trinket is so strong on progression that the decision is really taken out of your hands most of the time. 95% of the time, it's better to just use Phylactery + Leech on progression. Messing around with the class trinket and the other throughput trinkets (Felspark, Gift) is really only something worth doing if you want to try and rank.

[theburned]

As far as it being impossible to go OOM with Phylactery + Autoclave, it really depends. There is a lot of relatively short fights in this tier, and a significant amount of variance in healing requirements. In a lot of the really short fights, it is next to impossible to OOM with just a Phylactery equipped. For example, looking at Mythic fights:

Assault - Doesn't really matter what you do.
Iron Reaver - The fight is too short for it really to be possible to go OOM on.
Kormrok - An even shorter fight, with even less healing required throughout most of it.
Council - A very long and mana intensive fight (well at least on progression). Would want max regen for this.
Kilrogg - Next to impossible to go OOM - fight is relatively short and nothing to heal on half of it.
Gorefiend - Very mana intensive - especially if you are maxing throughput on the adds. Very possible to OOM and would want max regen.
Socrethar - Medium length fight, but not really mana intensive because most of the healing requirement is single target mana efficient HoTs on debuff targets.
Iskar - Next to impossible to go OOM. Fight is too short and there is so little healing required during most of it.
Zakuun - Next to impossible to go OOM. It's fairly healing intensive but is too short to really stress your mana pool.
Tyrant - Even though it's a short fight, P2 and P3 are incredibly spammy and healing intensive. Can use max regen here.
Xhul'horac - Really short fight and really lax healing requirements outside of tank healing until P3 (it's commonly 3 healed).

I haven't seen the last two Mythic fights yet, but out of the first 11, only Council, Gorefiend and Tyrant really have the healing requirements/patterns that would warrant using Autoclave + Phylactery. On most of the other fights, I would say that you reach a point where more Spirit doesn't really improve your throughput because you can't burn mana fast enough at appropriate times to take advantage of it.

Thankfully, the Leech trinket is so strong on progression that the decision is really taken out of your hands most of the time. 95% of the time, it's better to just use Phylactery + Leech on progression. Messing around with the class trinket and the other throughput trinkets (Felspark, Gift) is really only something worth doing if you want to try and rank.

I found gift to be rather strong on particularly gorefiend, when we progressed I found myself being one of the best on tormented essences inside the stomach, numbers showing that I was the best.

[Seikusa]

I thought the seed worked well on heavy raidhealing bosses like council mythic (its the only one I had to heal this far) it did 12% of my healing.
on coucil the leech trinket increase my hps(though not counted in the logs since leech is personal) by ~26-30%.
since im am moonkin i didnt get a phylactery yet.

[Ogion]

We killed council mythic 1st time last week. And I have to say that seed + leech trinket are wonderful there. We had 4 healers and only I used leech trinket. So my total healing: 44.16m + 13.63m(from leech). And the seed made 7.65m.
It was difficult mana-management fight for me, but these 2 trinkets are really efficient there.

[MegaVolti]

The first problem here is that you have Seed of Creation in the first place. Your guild should not have given it to you It's rather shit for Resto Druids, your dps classes would have benefited a LOT more from it.

What you want to run (on pretty much every single fight) is Phylactery plus Felshadow Emulsion (the leech trinket).
Phylactery offers way more in terms of mana savings than any other trinket in the game. The spirit-equivalent is just awesome, it's certainly stronger than BRF spirit trinkets. This one is pretty much set in stone, equip it and never take it off for any fight.
The second trinket slot should be the leech trinket simply for the awesome throughput it offers, plus it also has a decent amount of regen. You just don't get a great deal like that with any other trinket. Sure, in short fights you could argue that the regen is wasted but even then the throughput from leech alone is more than enough to make it worth it. The throughput from leech is about the same as from Seed of Creation (under ideal conditions for SoC, when spread the leech trinket throughput is much higher) - with the only difference that it doesn't show on your healing meter. But if you worry about that you are doing it wrong, anyway Seed of Creation is strictly inferior to the leech trinket. Apart from cheesing meters I see absolutely no reason for a Druid healer to ever use it.

We killed council mythic 1st time last week. And I have to say that seed + leech trinket are wonderful there. We had 4 healers and only I used leech trinket. So my total healing: 44.16m + 13.63m(from leech). And the seed made 7.65m.
It was difficult mana-management fight for me, but these 2 trinkets are really efficient there.

That's what I mean with it being strictly inferior to the leech trinket. Almost 14m from the leech trinket (which also offers regen) and only about 8m from Seed of Creation (which offers nothing else).

While the healing done be SoC looks nice (when paired with the leech trinket, never instead of the leech trinket) I'd still question the decision of dropping Phylactery for it. The mana savings would have meant way more WG casts during this time. The additional casts of WG might very well have resulted in more than 8m overall healing (plus the throughput gain from throughput stats on Phyl).

[theburned]

The first problem here is that you have Seed of Creation in the first place. Your guild should not have given it to you It's rather shit for Resto Druids, your dps classes would have benefited a LOT more from it.

Yeah cause clearly there is no other option for having the class trinket than your guild giving it to you before any other dps.
We have coins, getting it over wf/socket rolls, having resto as OS, the trinket is great for balance. And you are not sure to have the phylactery either.

[Aleks0410]

As far as it being impossible to go OOM with Phylactery + Autoclave, it really depends. There is a lot of relatively short fights in this tier, and a significant amount of variance in healing requirements. In a lot of the really short fights, it is next to impossible to OOM with just a Phylactery equipped. For example, looking at Mythic fights:

Assault - Doesn't really matter what you do.
Iron Reaver - The fight is too short for it really to be possible to go OOM on.
Kormrok - An even shorter fight, with even less healing required throughout most of it.
Council - A very long and mana intensive fight (well at least on progression). Would want max regen for this.
Kilrogg - Next to impossible to go OOM - fight is relatively short and nothing to heal on half of it.
Gorefiend - Very mana intensive - especially if you are maxing throughput on the adds. Very possible to OOM and would want max regen.
Socrethar - Medium length fight, but not really mana intensive because most of the healing requirement is single target mana efficient HoTs on debuff targets.
Iskar - Next to impossible to go OOM. Fight is too short and there is so little healing required during most of it.
Zakuun - Next to impossible to go OOM. It's fairly healing intensive but is too short to really stress your mana pool.
Tyrant - Even though it's a short fight, P2 and P3 are incredibly spammy and healing intensive. Can use max regen here.
Xhul'horac - Really short fight and really lax healing requirements outside of tank healing until P3 (it's commonly 3 healed).

But this is all farm or? I bet these fights we all pretty "oom-able" on progression. Where I'd rather have control over extra spells than the proc from Seed.

How do people go about checking Leech healing? I assume warcraft logs still isn't counting it as the healers healing.

EDIT: As in other discussion, I feel like it applies differently for me when 2 healing 10-12 people. I hope this is the right link, but it should show myself ending HC Council at 20k mana left. That's after 5 min and 24 sec.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=11&spell=100

On a sidenote. Is it showing my 2 set doing more healing than my actual Lifebloom?

[Ogion]

How do people go about checking Leech healing? I assume warcraft logs still isn't counting it as the healers healing.

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/leech-trinket-counter

[Koor]

Here comes my question: How much spirit is worth the reduction of Demonic Phylactery?

It varies depending on the number of mana spells you cast per fight, though the nice thing about it is that the more you cast, its gains "more" spirit. To calculate it, select the "casts" tab on a recent log in warcraftlogs, then on the right there is a CPM(e), which is the average casts per minute. Then the equivalent spirit is:

Normal Demonic Phylactery: CPM(e) * 556 (mana per cast) / 12 (convert to MP5) / 2.06 (convert to spirit) = CPM(e) * 22.49
Heroic Demonic Phylactery: CPM(e) * 639 (mana per cast) / 12 (convert to MP5) / 2.06 (convert to spirit) = CPM(e) * 25.85
Mythic Demonic Phylactery: CPM(e) * 736 (mana per cast) / 12 (convert to MP5) / 2.06 (convert to spirit) = CPM(e) * 29.77

For example for the heroic version, assuming you cast an average of 35 spells per minute, that would be equivalent to 35 * 25.85 = 905 spirit.
For 45 casts per minute, it'll be 45 * 25.85 = 1163 spirit. And the mythic version would be 45 * 29.77 = 1340 spirit.

- - - Updated - - -

How do people go about checking Leech healing? I assume warcraft logs still isn't counting it as the healers healing.

Warcraftlogs doesn't attribute it to specific healers but we can see the "total" healing done by leech when we select the "healing tab" and then sort it "done by ability". I think we can mostly ignore the baseline leech from gear, therefore most of the healing there would be from the leech trinkets.

When zooming in to short "burst healing" periods, leech healing can be pretty significant -- it helps more the more challenging healing is. And it scales both with healers gear, *and* with dps gear, it's pretty OP.

[Tiberria]

We are on what, week 10 or something of most Mythic guilds killing Heroic Archimonde? Even though I agree that the class trinket is mediocre for Resto Druids, it's hardly inconceivable that most people have a heroic class trinket at this point. At the very least, any Resto Druid would want to grab a leftover Vanq trinket for their Boomkin spec.

At any rate, the value of Phylactery is kind of tricky to nail down 100%. This spreadsheet that someone created at the start of the tier estimates it for each healer based on BRF logs https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Xuo/edit#gid=0. However, using logs without Phlactery is a little misleading, because the reality is - once you have it, you are going to be casting more spells than you would without it. In particular, it makes Rejuv so cheap that you are likely to be spamming a lot more filler Rejuvs than you otherwise would. As a result, if anything, the numbers in that sheet under shoot the Spirit value. At any rate, it's a ridiculously good trinket, with way higher regen values than any other trinket plus strong throughput stats, including Druids' best secondary.

I don't view 12% extra Flourish healing done as a good result for the class trinket, especially on a fight like Council. On Council, the reality is that the damage patterns allow you to use Wild Growth virtually on cooldown if you can afford it and have it be effective - at least until the last 1-2 minutes of the fight. Since you obviously can't afford to WG every CD plus keep WM up plus spam Rejuvs in every remaining GCD (obviously keeping LBx2 up and using OOC procs) even with maximum regen gear, we gain full value from additional regen on that fight. If you factor in the amount of extra Rejuvs and WG you would be able to cast from having a regen trinket equipped instead of the class trinket (and the throughput you would gain), it is likely to exceed 12%, even before taking into account the throughput proc on regen trinkets like Autoclave. I did the math earlier this tier, but my opinion is that on a heavily regen limited fight (like Council or Gorefiend), the class trinket is only worth using if the proc exceeds ~20% of your healing done. I could see the class trinket worth considering on a fight like Fel Lord, where it is very difficult to go OOM due to the fight length.

Of course, that also doesn't even address the fact that the estimated value of the Leech proc (from addons/Weak Aura) is in the 15-25% range on almost every fight. If the Leech trinket healing actually registered on WCL, I suspect no one would ever want to unequip the trinket and no one would ever touch the class trinket. I just don't see the value of using the class trinket on almost anything outside of wanting to artificially inflate your ranks/percentiles.

[Seikusa]

I count the leech by most common leech value done by healers or dps and multiply it by 20.
if they are more then 1 healer with leech trinket i divide the leech value by number of people with the trinket.