Simcraft / Dotless CoP with class trinket

[masterprtzl]

Does anyone know how to force simcraft to avoid dot weaving if I am trying to sim myself using a dotless build with CoP? It is still showing SWP and VT on my damage per execute time.

[Kilee25]

Yeah.

There are three useful APLs that I have found.

This is my original DoTless Insanity APL, and still the "best one" for getting stat weights. You need a haste value over 2400 or so in order for this APL to work properly.

Insanity APL

actions.cop_insanity=devouring_plague,if=shadow_orb=5
actions.cop_insanity+=/mind_blast,if=active_enemies<=5&cooldown_react
actions.cop_insanity+=/shadow_word_death,if=target.health.pct<20
actions.cop_insanity+=/insanity,interrupt=1
actions.cop_insanity+=/devouring_plague,if=shadow_orb>=3&(cooldown.mind_blast.remains<gcd*2|(target.health.pct<20&cooldown.shadow_word_death.remains<gcd*2))
actions.cop_insanity+=/shadowfiend
actions.cop_insanity+=/mind_spike,if=target.debuff.mental_fatigue.remains>=gcd*1.5&target.debuff.mental_fatigue.stack=5
actions.cop_insanity+=/mind_flay,if=(target.debuff.mental_fatigue.remains<gcd*1.5|target.debuff.mental_fatigue.stack<5),interrupt=1,chain=1

Credit for Keasebrezen for pointing out a bug that was causing the Mindbender APL to cast too many Mind Flays.

Mindbender APL

actions.cop+=/mindbender
actions.cop+=/devouring_plague,if=shadow_orb>=3&(cooldown.mind_blast.remains<=gcd|(cooldown.shadow_word_death.remains<=gcd&target.health.pct<20))
actions.cop+=/mind_blast,if=cooldown_react
actions.cop+=/shadow_word_death,if=target.health.pct<20
actions.cop+=/mind_spike,if=target.debuff.mental_fatigue.remains>=gcd*1.5&target.debuff.mental_fatigue.stack=5
actions.cop+=/mind_flay,if=(target.debuff.mental_fatigue.remains<gcd*1.5|target.debuff.mental_fatigue.stack<5),interrupt=1,chain=1

Credit to LLeaf for trying to combine these two APLs and attempt to add some improvements.

Combined, and attempting to game the 4p set bonus, disregards haste

actions.cop_row=insanity,if=t18_class_trinket&target.debuff.mental_fatigue.remains<1.5*gcd&target.debuff.mental_fatigue.stack=5,interrupt_if=target.debuff.mental_fatigue.remains>1.5*gcd
actions.cop_row+=/mind_flay,if=t18_class_trinket&target.debuff.mental_fatigue.remains<1.5*gcd&target.debuff.mental_fatigue.stack=5,interrupt_if=target.debuff.mental_fatigue.remains>1.5*gcd
actions.cop_row+=/mindbender,if=talent.mindbender.enabled
actions.cop_row+=/shadowfiend,if=!talent.mindbender.enabled&(!buff.insanity.up|buff.insanity.remains>gcd)
actions.cop_row+=/devouring_plague,if=shadow_orb=5&(active_enemies=1|talent.insanity.enabled)
actions.cop_row+=/devouring_plague,if=shadow_orb=5&(active_enemies>1&talent.insanity.enabled)&primary_target=0,cycle_targets=1
actions.cop_row+=/mind_blast,if=cooldown_react
actions.cop_row+=/mind_spike,if=buff.surge_of_darkness.react=3
actions.cop_row+=/shadow_word_death,if=target.health.pct<20
actions.cop_row+=/devouring_plague,if=shadow_orb>=3&talent.insanity.enabled&!buff.insanity.up&(cooldown.mind_blast.remains<2*gcd|(target.health.pct<20&cooldown.shadow_word_death.remains<2*gcd))&(!set_bonus.tier18_4pc|set_bonus.tier18_4pc&buff.premonition.up)
actions.cop_row+=/devouring_plague,if=shadow_orb>=3&!talent.insanity.enabled&(cooldown.mind_blast.remains<gcd|(target.health.pct<20&cooldown.shadow_word_death.remains<gcd)|(talent.mindbender.enabled&cooldown.mindbender.remains<gcd|cooldown.shadowfiend.remains<gcd))&(!set_bonus.tier18_4pc|set_bonus.tier18_4pc&buff.premonition.up)&active_enemies=1
actions.cop_row+=/devouring_plague,if=shadow_orb>=3&!talent.insanity.enabled&(cooldown.mind_blast.remains<gcd|(target.health.pct<20&cooldown.shadow_word_death.remains<gcd)|(talent.mindbender.enabled&cooldown.mindbender.remains<gcd|cooldown.shadowfiend.remains<gcd))&(!set_bonus.tier18_4pc|set_bonus.tier18_4pc&buff.premonition.up)&active_enemies>1&primary_target=0,cycle_targets=1
actions.cop_row+=/insanity,chain=1,interrupt_if=(cooldown.mind_blast.remains<=0.1|(cooldown.shadow_word_death.remains<=0.1&target.health.pct<20))
actions.cop_row+=/mind_flay,if=t18_class_trinket&(target.debuff.mental_fatigue.remains<1.5*gcd|((cooldown.mind_blast.remains<2.5*gcd|(talent.mindbender.enabled&cooldown.mindbender.remains<2.5*gcd|cooldown.shadowfiend.remains<2.5*gcd))&target.debuff.mental_fatigue.remains<2.5*gcd)),interrupt_if=target.debuff.mental_fatigue.remains>1.5*gcd
actions.cop_row+=/mind_flay,if=t18_class_trinket&target.debuff.mental_fatigue.stack<5,interrupt=1
actions.cop_row+=/vampiric_touch,if=talent.surge_of_darkness.enabled&ticks_remain<=3.5&target.time_to_die>(15*0.75+cast_time)&primary_target=0,cycle_targets=1
actions.cop_row+=/mind_spike

I just picked up RoW last night, and I can verify without question that the first APL is the cast style that we should be aiming for.

When you run these APLs, it's going to look like Mastery is your best stat, however this is a bit of a lie. There's a massive haste break point around 2400ish haste rating that you need to build up to, and while simcraft is very stable, the real live game is not, and the amount of haste you need to maintain the rotation is much higher. In practice, you basically just need to keep stacking haste, prioritizing it over everything, and getting as much as you can, even - at times - at the expense of slightly higher iLevel items.

[masterprtzl]

Yea, I noticed Hesp from Midwinter has like 2800+ haste in some of his gear sets so I think many top spriests have come to the same conclusion. His #1 spriest velhari log on Warcraft Logs actually shows him using RoW insanity.

I dont think I have the haste to pull this off yet, If I get to the ~2400-2500 haste mark its at the expense of DSI for Piston or about 5 ilevel worth of gear

I am not too savy on using my own action lists, do I just replace the existing action lists in my profile in simcraft?

[Kilee25]

Piston vs DSI is a perfect example of an acceptable trade in order to get enough haste to pull off the rotation.

Basically you just replace all the action lists with the one you want to use, then make sure it's calling it at the top where it says something like "call actionlist name=xxx".

[masterprtzl]

Thanks a ton, going to be simming a ton today thats for sure, then off to test it on some heroic zakuun

- - - Updated - - -

Getting the following...

Player Vyrle_Active has 'use_item' action with no custom buff or action setup.
Player Vyrle_Active has 'use_item' action with no custom buff or action setup.

I may have messed something up, maybe in regards to the legendary ring?

Interesting, even my default profile and action list seems to have the same...

[Kaesebrezen]

I may have messed something up, maybe in regards to the legendary ring?

Get the nightly simcraft build, Ring should work with that.

[masterprtzl]

Get the nightly simcraft build, Ring should work with that.

Downloaded the files, whats the best way to install it, i normally use the installer and not sure the best way to unpackage this.

[Deleted]

I just picked up RoW last night, and I can verify without question that the first APL is the cast style that we should be aiming for.

When you run these APLs, it's going to look like Mastery is your best stat, however this is a bit of a lie. There's a massive haste break point around 2400ish haste rating that you need to build up to, and while simcraft is very stable, the real live game is not, and the amount of haste you need to maintain the rotation is much higher. In practice, you basically just need to keep stacking haste, prioritizing it over everything, and getting as much as you can, even - at times - at the expense of slightly higher iLevel items.

Do you know the exact haste% needed for that breakpoint? And mind detailing a little more exactly what the breakpoint accomplishes?

[masterprtzl]

Do you know the exact haste% needed for that breakpoint? And mind detailing a little more exactly what the breakpoint accomplishes?

2400 is about the minimum, as Kilee said, you need to mess with it to figure out what your latency and FPS will allow you to play at. I personally am playing at 60-150fps and 50-100ms and 2400 is still really really tight for me, especially when you factor in movement. I'd say its closer to 2500-2600 to give a little room for human error.

[Djriff]

Good to know swapping out DSI for IRP isn't a terrible idea. With IRP on I can hit 2501 haste which is good for me. It drops me down to 60% mastery though, is that still worth it?

[masterprtzl]

I think its a "test it out" type thing, though sadly no two raid environments will be identical so it may take you quite a few pulls on something like Fel Lord to get a feel for it. I am going to be testing a full haste set up thats simming very high for me at the moment, even if I am dropping 3-4 ilevel. I want to see how it compares to my logs last week on mythic zakuun.

Cant share logs sadly, guild policy to keep private as we had some attempted sniping issues.

[Djriff]

I'll do some testing in my garrison if I have time tonight. Not very happy with my fel lord DPS from last night and want to push it higher if possible. I was more asking if the trade off of the master + int proc was worth the haste and crit.

If people are getting sniped because of logs and actually leaving, you're probably better off without them. No guild/raid loyalty is a shitty thing.

[Kilee25]

Do you know the exact haste% needed for that breakpoint? And mind detailing a little more exactly what the breakpoint accomplishes?

Theoretically, you need enough haste so that the last tick of the last Insanity is within 10 seconds of the first tick of the next insanity.

In order to accomplish this, we need 8.5 GCDs to happen in 10 seconds.

10/8.5 = 1.176471 - this is the GCD we are aiming for

gcd = 1.5/((haste/90/100+1)*1.05)

((haste/90/100+1)*1.05)= 1.5/1.176471

haste/90/100 = 1.275/1.05 - 1

haste = .214285*100*90

haste = 1928.57 (round up to 1929)

That's the theoretical minimum amount of haste you'd need to avoid casting normal mind flays. In reality, as masterprtzl said and others, you need quite a bit more than this to actually pull it off. This is due to latency and the fact that you lose a little bit of cast time every time you cast a spell.

The actual number is mid 2000s, but it'll be slightly different for every person. A good rule of thumb is to just get as much haste as you can, and aim to overshoot the mark.

..............

The reason why this works is two fold. One, on pure ST it's just higher damage than Mindbender. Secondly, it builds a play style that allows for target switching and to rebuild stacks naturally without modifying your play style or obssessing over tracked buffs. The debuff will rebuild and stay up throughout the majority of the fight if you just "play normally". There's certainly some optimization that can be done to eek more damage out, but even the derpiest effort while executing the proper rotation will overpower whatever you could do with some other combination of CoP trinkets and play styles. Basically haste makes the play style resilient and start to approach something that has room for error, and resembles an actual functional mode of play rather than just a paper theory that has no practical application.

[Deleted]

Makes sense, I was mostly looking for comfirmation on the actual %, cos you know, gnome master race

I'll give it a try soon I think

[Sxq]

I get up to about 2750 haste (and 80 something% mastery) with my CoP/RoW set and it works pretty nicely. I find that even with that much haste I still have to cast normal mind flay occasionally, but I assume that's some small degree of latency/user error. I'm using mythic IRP atm since my other trinkets are heroic, but I'd switch to mythic DSI if I got it which I assume would be a decent dps increase since my haste would still be above the theoretical threshold. But still, since switching to full haste for my CoP set I've been pretty happy with the results and easily hit 85-95k dps on Fel Lord even when the fight timing is super poor for legendary ring usage (~3-4 mins instead of 2 something or 4 something).

I guess my question is about shadowfiend timing - I know that I shouldn't delay mind blast, but is it worse to lose 2-4 ticks of insanity to get shadowfiend out asap? Or should I always replace a mind spike with shadowfiend?

I'm a bit of a simcraft noob (mostly just messed around with the default builds (?) which seem to not use RoW properly) so I'm not sure how to check what the sim is doing here.

[Kilee25]

If you're doing the DoTless Insanity rotation with Row, you will want to delay shadowfiend until the Insanity sequence has finished. You can't delay Mind Blast, and that must be hit on CD, or you'll miss the window to refresh Mental Fatigue. Basically you have to cast Shadowfiend in place of your first Mind Spike, and that's about the only time you can get it in.

Glad to hear that you are doing so well with it.

[Djriff]

I think even with 80 MS i have to much latency at 2536 haste >< I figured out a rotation that works mostly, just gotta commit it to muscle memory.

Also Kilee there's an error with that Insanity APL you posted. I'm fairly certain it's a Simcraft issue, but it doesn't build RoW stacks on the pull for some reason.

]

[Kilee25]

I will check it out. That seems odd. Last time I ran it there were mind flays in the damage list.

[Wayne25uk]

I wish i was smart enough to understand a word anybody said on this entire thread,i read it.....but understood 0.

[Kilee25]

DJ, looking at the APL, it's prioritizing building buffs before casting the next Mind Blast.

It's channeling Mind Flay for 4.934-2.118 seconds (2.816 total). That's about 2.5 GCDs worth of channel, so it's building up to 5 before it breaks out of it and moving on. Since that's the only point in the sim that it casts Mind Flays, it's okay. We can fix it, but it shouldn't affect DPS enough to upset anything like stat weights or expected damage.

I'm actually more concerned by the absence of a second Insanity channel further down the list, and what appears to be an imperfect rotation setting in. I see the same thing happening on my end as well. It will do the proper rotation 2-3 times in a row, then skip it and insert a Mind Flay later down the list in order to keep the debuff from falling off.

I'll have to look into it, but this may just be a situation where Simcraft isn't perfect. We've had a few threads up on H2P this expac discussing the fact that channeled spells in SimC do not break reliably.