Preach on LFR

[stomination]

That's why performance needs to be graded and rewarded...it's not just "baddies" who are bringing LFR down. It's everyone, and it's because there's no incentive for good behavior.

Performance in LFR...lol.

That system would never happen too many people would be against it.

[stomination]

Why? There'd be no punishment. You could still afk/auto-attack. You'd get the same loot chance you have right now.

But.

Now if you do X dps and avoid Y damage, you get # valor.
If you do X+Y dps, avoid Y damage, you get # valor plus a bonus roll.

Etc.

The data's all there. AMR rates your performance based on similar ilvl and spec. It could be done if they wanted--it would just take a lot of coding at the forefront (and then extensive raid testing, which should be happening anyway, to establish benchmarks). Healers focus on healing vs overheals vs damage done to raid. Tanks focus on dmg taken, dmg done, as a function of uptime on boss (so tanks aren't spam-taunting for more uptime). I realize it's complicated and imperfect, but it's better than what we have now.

All it would do is encourage people to actually play, and play well. It wouldn't penalize people for sucking.

Still wouldn't work.

The majority of players who do LFR are not capable of doing a correct rotation/uptime. Mechanics are largely ignored because they don't do enough dmg and only slow down the killing of the boss.

[stomination]

The point is to reward people for playing and learning to play. Right now we have mythic raiders admitting on these forums that they AFK. Why? Because they have no motivation to do otherwise. Give them a reason to compete, even in the kiddie pool.

Then you give people a quantifiable measure to stand up to. Wow, I got a below-average grade on this wing? I must be doing something wrong.

I'm telling you, if you don't penalize people for being bad, but you give substantial rewards for being good, you'd be surprised at how quickly LFR would change.

Your still in the belief that they want to improve. They know they are not doing well they just don't care because its free loot that doesn't require them to get invited to.

All your "thing" is going to do is drive more people away from LFR especially when the game starts telling them that they are bad when they already hate other players telling them.

[Wingspan]

We saw larger raids because there were far less tiers.

I am not sure if you are serious or not.


If so, that is some pretty heavey denial.


I am sure that having less tiers helped, but he explained budget justifications right there in the quote.

[Xada]

That's a pretty pessimistic outlook, amigo! Agree to disagree, as neither of us really can substantiate our claims beyond generic view of human nature.

I think you'll need to ease people into it, remove LFR, nerf normal to be harder than lfr, easier than normal. Giving people a queue system for these groups removes any sense of accountability if you arent a tank, so everyone abuses it from time to time and even worse, people troll the crap out of it. Increase the difficulty over time back to normal level after several major content patches and new raids. May want to break raids up into slices for them to keep it casual.

[Wingspan]

I think you'll need to ease people into it, remove LFR, nerf normal to be harder than lfr, easier than normal. Giving people a queue system for these groups removes any sense of accountability if you arent a tank, so everyone abuses it from time to time and even worse, people troll the crap out of it. Increase the difficulty over time back to normal level after several major content patches and new raids. May want to break raids up into slices for them to keep it casual.

I am 99% positive that if LFR were removed that within a year or so all of the exact same rage towards LFR would be directed towards Normal.


Other than a queue system, very little differentiates them. In fact, people that try to convince people to step out of LFR often swear that Normal is easier and faster due to player screening.

[Xada]

I am 99% positive that if LFR were removed that within a year or so all of the exact same rage towards LFR would be directed towards Normal.


Other than a queue system, very little differentiates them. In fact, people that try to convince people to step out of LFR often swear that Normal is easier and faster due to player screening.

Not trying to poison the well here, but everyone rages about everything at some point. What matters is do they have a point, if they do, are they still looking at the right thing? I think LFR was a worthy experiment, but ultimately should be replaced by something better that keeps players not only progressing gear wise, but challenges them skill-wise, all the while not taking much time once everyone figures out what they need to do.

[Wingspan]

Actually, I think that's the very thing that infuriates the anti-LFR crusaders the most. They want to remain the gatekeepers of the content, to keep out the "undeserving" and those they deem beneath acceptable abilities. It's also the primary draw of LFR and without it I think LFR participation numbers would only slightly eclipse the numbers of Normal.

I think 90% of the hate spawns from the fact that LFR gives something resembling decent gear (even though it is 4th or 5th rate).

I think if it gave no gear at all and people somehow ran it all day long, enjoyed it, and still never left it for regular raiding, then we would barely hear a word about it.

[MoanaLisa]

I think 90% of the hate spawns from the fact that LFR gives something resembling decent gear (even though it is 4th or 5th rate).

I think if it gave no gear at all and people somehow ran it all day long, enjoyed it, and still never left it for regular raiding, then we would barely hear a word about it.

Perhaps. But it's easy enough to imagine in that case people saying it's pointless and needs to be removed. There very much is a strong strain of "bad players should not be seeing this" that underlies it. That started pretty much the very first day it was announced and hasn't let up since. It expresses in different ways but even the business with tourist mode and no gear was to marginalize it to the point that no one would do it and it would be removed. And that's because there's still a lot of people unhappy that everyone can see a raid. The gear now is much less than it was in Mists and if anything the intensity of the "LFR Needs to Go" threads has increased. There are people that still get off on the idea of controlling access to content and LFR negates that control at many levels. Witness earlier posts about how the game should be less inclusive and more exclusive. A less inclusive game is suicide for Blizzard at this point.

Frankly there's a piece of me that wants to see LFR pulled because I know what that will mean for raiding generally. Less of them and probably more dungeons which would suit me just fine. But I'm not terribly interested in seeing Blizzard blunder through all of that after watching them blunder through Cataclysm and Warlords. I had thought that, pandaren aside, they had more or less righted the ship after Cataclysm with Mists but apparently not. That's one reason why Warlords has been an excessively disappointing expansion.

[Wingspan]

Perhaps. But it's easy enough to imagine in that case people saying it's pointless and needs to be removed.

Sure, that would happen to some degree, but it would likely not be the same set of people calling for its removal.

After all, we don't really get a ton of "No more Holiday bosses" threads despite the fact that they are traditionally pretty easy and you can queue for them (so they share a lot of the qualities of LFR, but don't get the hate).

But then they have never offered much in the way of competitive gear (and about half the time they have pitiful gear). And in the rare cases that the gear was decent, it was usually only for 1 slot anyway.

I really do think gear is about 90% of what it is all about, regardless of the claims (by many) to the contrary.

There very much is a strong strain of "bad players should not be seeing this" that underlies it. That started pretty much the very first day it was announced and hasn't let up since. It expresses in different ways but even the business with tourist mode and no gear was to marginalize it to the point that no one would do it and it would be removed. And that's because there's still a lot of people unhappy that everyone can see a raid. The gear now is much less than it was in Mists and if anything the intensity of the "LFR Needs to Go" threads has increased.

This is kind of where the other 10% comes in (in my view). There are some that legitimately feel (with no real proof) that LFR is damaging to the structure of the game.


And I think the only reason we are seeing a surge right now is due to the pending expansion and Blizzcon announcements. Many are just taking the time for some wishful thinking and hoping that some last minute effort will influence a decision for the next expansion and kill it off. Depending on what plans Bliz lays out for LFR, next Satuday could be amazing on the forums.

[Xada]

Perhaps. But it's easy enough to imagine in that case people saying it's pointless and needs to be removed. There very much is a strong strain of "bad players should not be seeing this" that underlies it. That started pretty much the very first day it was announced and hasn't let up since. It expresses in different ways but even the business with tourist mode and no gear was to marginalize it to the point that no one would do it and it would be removed. And that's because there's still a lot of people unhappy that everyone can see a raid. The gear now is much less than it was in Mists and if anything the intensity of the "LFR Needs to Go" threads has increased. There are people that still get off on the idea of controlling access to content and LFR negates that control at many levels. Witness earlier posts about how the game should be less inclusive and more exclusive. A less inclusive game is suicide for Blizzard at this point.

Frankly there's a piece of me that wants to see LFR pulled because I know what that will mean for raiding generally. Less of them and probably more dungeons which would suit me just fine. But I'm not terribly interested in seeing Blizzard blunder through all of that after watching them blunder through Cataclysm and Warlords. I had thought that, pandaren aside, they had more or less righted the ship after Cataclysm with Mists but apparently not. That's one reason why Warlords has been an excessively disappointing expansion.

There is no other players in the game who can stop you or anyone else from entering a raid. Raiders don't care about the gear you have for the same reason Wingspan said, it isn't good gear, do you think they care that you wear crap? There is no grand conspiracy of elite players who govern WoW from behind closed doors and they certainly are not trying to remove LFR purely out of spite. Stop trying to be some sort of oppressed group in a video game. There are so many people complaining about 715+ ilvl, get 9 of them and try your hand, make a few friends and see if you can do more later on your own time. I think people are just afraid to talk to each other, that or everyone's going to bite their head off, and being held accountable for something. Rather than facing insecurities, people try to find a scapegoat and that's why i think everyone goes after those elitist pig raiders.

[oldgeezer]

Actually, I think that's the very thing that infuriates the anti-LFR crusaders the most. They want to remain the gatekeepers of the content, to keep out the "undeserving" and those they deem beneath acceptable abilities.

There's that, and there's also self-esteem issues.

A (small) subset of raiders want the rest of the player base to look up to them, and their achievements. To be impressed. To a certain degree, LFR removes that.

Speaking for myself, I couldn't care less about what others do in game, what gear they wear, or which dragons they have killed. It makes absolutely no difference to me. If they're out there having fun, great. It's a game; it's ultimately trivial and inconsequential, nothing more, nothing less. That's fine.

[MoanaLisa]

There is no grand conspiracy of elite players who govern WoW from behind closed doors and they certainly are not trying to remove LFR purely out of spite.

Who said anything about closed doors or conspiracies? It's been possible to read all about it every day here for years.

[HeedmySpeed]

There's that, and there's also self-esteem issues.

A (small) subset of raiders want the rest of the player base to look up to them, and their achievements. To be impressed. To a certain degree, LFR removes that.

Now why would that sense of recognition be removed? Why would anyone ever "look up" to a player? Before I give my thoughts on this I want to hear you first.

[oldgeezer]

Now why would that sense of recognition be removed? Why would anyone ever "look up" to a player? Before I give my thoughts on this I want to hear you first.

Why do people AFK in their shiniest gear outside the AH? Or become YouTube celebrities? To impress the natives. It's human nature. People like to show off. As I said, this is only a small subset of the community (such as the people vocally calling for the removal or degradation of LFR are a small subset of the community).

The vast majority of raiders don't do this, as I suspect the vast majority of them don't care about LFR. They are silent on the matter. It's the noisy bunch that get the attention; their self-esteem is punctured by the fact that the plebs get to see the content, and beat it too. It is no longer 'special'. That is what LFR removes.

[jMerliN]

Actually, I think that's the very thing that infuriates the anti-LFR crusaders the most. They want to remain the gatekeepers of the content, to keep out the "undeserving" and those they deem beneath acceptable abilities. It's also the primary draw of LFR and without it I think LFR participation numbers would only slightly eclipse the numbers of Normal.

No. Nobody is trying to prevent anyone from doing anything. If you want to raid, go raid. Nobody is stopping you. You're the one at fault for not being willing to go find a group of people with the same interests.

Gotta love this modern entitlement. You're also the most special person in the world, did you know that?

A (small) subset of raiders want the rest of the player base to look up to them, and their achievements. To be impressed. To a certain degree, LFR removes that.

A small subset of the idiots around here think that we care what they think. You're not in the raiding community, so your thoughts on the matter of achievement are in every way irrelevant.

[HeedmySpeed]

Why do people AFK in their shiniest gear outside the AH? Or become YouTube celebrities? To impress the natives. It's human nature. People like to show off. As I said, this is only a small subset of the community (such as the people vocally calling for the removal or degradation of LFR are a small subset of the community).

No, I mean, why do other people "look up" to them.

The vast majority of raiders don't do this, as I suspect the vast majority of them don't care about LFR. They are silent on the matter. It's the noisy bunch that get the attention; their self-esteem is punctured by the fact that the plebs get to see the content, and beat it too. It is no longer 'special'. That is what LFR removes.

Because the vast majority of raiders don't post period.

And really, this is not an obvious issue. Forever how many times people bring up "the lack of incentive to raid" for LFRer's, the usually response is "they wouldn't raid anyway." Well what about the current raiders, the ones in guilds putting an effort? The incentive has faded for everyone.

I can tell you that a huge incentive to raid for most people is to actually see the instance and have the privilege of fighting the next boss. That was a huge reason to deal with the negative aspects of organized raiding.

That incentive is gone and I feel most raiders feel this to some degree. These days casual guilds can barely get off the ground and raiding culture is a lot less serious.

[Deleted]

I think you'll need to ease people into it, remove LFR, nerf normal to be harder than lfr, easier than normal. Giving people a queue system for these groups removes any sense of accountability if you arent a tank, so everyone abuses it from time to time and even worse, people troll the crap out of it. Increase the difficulty over time back to normal level after several major content patches and new raids. May want to break raids up into slices for them to keep it casual.

Before the introduction of LFR only a tiny minority has ever bothered to actually raid, why do you guys believe that now you could suddenly change that by more of the same old? It wont work, mostly because these people DO NOT WANT TO raid in the fashion you believe they ought to. They don't want to engage in having to find and maintain premades or sticking to a fixed schedule.

The closest we got to getting them to do it was in MoP with flex and yes I can already see you going "BUT FLEX IS NOW NORMAL" conveniently ignoring how flex did not have actual lockouts that prevented people from doing stuff more than once (even tho no loot), how it split the raid up in portions etc.

The whole thought line of you guys, the attempt at devaluing everything outside of raids while trying to bully people into becoming raiders is exactly what got us into the mess WoD is. More of that wont suddenly fix these problems. If anything reverting to the pre WoD status would be a far more logical conclusion.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually, I think that's the very thing that infuriates the anti-LFR crusaders the most. They want to remain the gatekeepers of the content, to keep out the "undeserving" and those they deem beneath acceptable abilities. It's also the primary draw of LFR and without it I think LFR participation numbers would only slightly eclipse the numbers of Normal.

Basically, for them it's not good enough to get bonuses and a pat on the back in the form of achievments and mounts, they also want to devalue what everyone else has access to or do away with it entirely to inflate their own ego and feeling of superiority. It's why their solutions usually involve making stuff worse for everyone else and having gotten what they wanted with WoD it turned out to be a complete catastrophe as they're a tiny minority.

[MoanaLisa]

Basically, for them it's not good enough to get bonuses and a pat on the back in the form of achievments and mounts, they also want to devalue what everyone else has access to or do away with it entirely to inflate their own ego and feeling of superiority. It's why their solutions usually involve making stuff worse for everyone else and having gotten what they wanted with WoD it turned out to be a complete catastrophe as they're a tiny minority.

If Blizzard is only paying attention to the 20% or so that's really on Blizzard. Everyone makes demands on forums. Everyone holds up their subscription as if it's a hostage in a negotiation. It's a curious thing and something that some day will change if Blizzard intends to keep the game alive. Meanwhile, we have a lead designer who thinks that the only 'important' things in the game are PVP/raiding so there's some work to do there first. Raiders aren't the bad guys here. They aren't necessarily the good guys either. They are an interest group like any other. It does seem as if Blizzard has paid more attention to them in the past. We'll know in a week if there's any hints of that changing. Meanwhile, everyone should take a deep breath.

[Deleted]

It's not even 20% to be honest tho. As Blizzard has devalued "Normal" (flex previously) and heroic aswell compared to Mythic. The mount only drops on Mythic, most of the achievments come from Mythic etc. They basically for some obscure reason heap praise and rewards onto a small 0,2% group neglecting the large player base that enjoys a lot of other things in the process in an attempt to make these people stand out more, something they often demand.

I'm not really convinced about Legion being an improvement or U-turn in this developement. Especially looking at what they announced for PvP so far. It seems to me as if they're going to take the same sledgehammer they took to quite a few PvE things in WoD now and use it on PvP gear, throwing out the attempt of MoP to make both sides of the game more accessible to the other. Depending on what exactly they announce and everything so far sems extremly dire, we could very well see raid gear rule supreme in World PvP and PvP gear being all but useless in anything but PvP (and even there being only equal if not worse than high end PvE gear).