Do you think the Mongols could have taken over Europe?

[Kontinuum]

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistoria...ered_a/cgtr2i9

[hellhamster]

Those regions were suited to cavalry warfare, look at how the militaries in those regions developed, then look at how European militaries developed.

Europe favoured infantry because geography meant you can't feed a large number of horses without massive logistics problems and those problems are what creates the weakness in the Mongol army - you cut them and they're screwed until they've sorted out the problem and in the meantime you go and cut them elsewhere. Basically you use horse archer hit-and-run tactics, but do it with a navy, the Mongols are hoisted by their own petard.

Someone played Total War here :^).

[Exception]

Mongol tactics of forcing cities to surrender or be annihilated don't work particularly well on the Mediterranean, as you can supply the coastal cities by sea, evacuate them and/or reinforce them once the Mongols move on. It would mean the Mongols having to garrison the cities with enough men for defence, thereby weakening their main army. Even if the Mongols gained a fleet they would have to contend with nations that had fleets and crews experienced in that region.

Hm this is true... they did have some problems in the Levant along the coast.

[hellhamster]

I see you continue to ignore some of the examples. I guess your grasp on history is too great to even handle such ideas that go against yours....

I'm just debunking your argument by stating it is based in blind predictions.

[ParanoiD84]

Wow, you're going all out. If you are unable to understand European history, it's not my problem, but understand this: Mongols back then only conquered the militarily weakest regions of Europe. I don't know who would have won in a direct clash, but you are definitely underestimating Europe's military strength and defense.

There is no basis in which you can easily ascertain that Mongols would overrun Europe. It's like saying "The Mets are gonna win everything this year", half a year beforehand.

Subutai owned Europe's main army's like it was child's play.

[Reeve]

I dunno man, one of those walls was pretty great.

But not very effective. The Theodosian Walls were pretty hard to beat.

[Exception]

The greatest fortifications in Asia had nothing on the efficacy of the Theodosian Walls.

I don't know enough about this to comment on which were the strongest but China for sure had some quite remarkable ones which fell. But you might be correct...

[GennGreymane]

Those regions were suited to cavalry warfare, look at how the militaries in those regions developed, then look at how European militaries developed.

Europe favoured infantry because geography meant you can't feed a large number of horses without massive logistics problems and those problems are what creates the weakness in the Mongol army - you cut them and they're screwed until they've sorted out the problem and in the meantime you go and cut them elsewhere. Basically you use horse archer hit-and-run tactics, but do it with a navy, the Mongols are hoisted by their own petard.

I know most of the M.E regions were set up that way, but the mongols did fight against much stronger armies too, namely China. Also European armies had issues with resources, most of what we associate with Europe was not for the average soldier.

[ItachiZaku]

You just have to read about Subutai to know that the answer is yes. Arguable the best general of all times.

Subutai was a Tuva*Turkic*general, and the primary military strategist of*Genghis Khan*and*Ögedei Khan. He directed more than twenty campaigns in which he conquered thirty-two nations and won sixty-five*pitched battles, during which he conquered or overran more territory than any other commander in history.[1]*He gained victory by means of imaginative and sophisticated strategies and routinely coordinated movements of armies that were hundreds of kilometers away from each other. He is also remembered for devising the campaign that destroyed the armies of Hungary and Poland within two days of each other, by forces over five hundred kilometers apart.

That my friends is some epic shit to say the least.

My two "main"s in wow are named Subudei and Muqali. I couldn't use Subutai, as that named ended up being used in game. Along with Jebe, these three REKT shit. Things came to a halt when G-Man fell off his horse and died, but it was a power struggle for succession between Juchi and Chagatai, and so Ogedei was given the leadership (declared before the mighty Khan's death), and those progress did continue, it didn't reach its zenith until Kubla but alas, exhaustive losses in campaigns vs Japan.

If they'd stayed united and focused on the mainland territories and avoided crossing over into india and Japan, yeah, they would have conquered all, but as others have pointed out, they would NOT have been able to hold that vast of a territory.

[hellhamster]

Subutai owned Europe's main army's like it was child's play.

Europe's main army as in central-east Europe's armies? Because that's not Europe's main army.

[GennGreymane]

I'm just debunking your argument by stating it is based in blind predictions.

By not actually going over the argument? I see your logic and raise you one eyebrow.

- - - Updated - - -

Europe's main army as in central-east Europe's armies? Because that's not Europe's main army.

Your knowledge of European history is fascinating. Tell me more of this United European Army!

Do you mean France? Do you mean Spain? Do you mean Byzantium? Do you Mean England?

[ParanoiD84]

My two "main"s in wow are named Subudei and Muqali. I couldn't use Subutai, as that named ended up being used in game. Along with Jebe, these three REKT shit. Things came to a halt when G-Man fell off his horse and died, but it was a power struggle for succession between Juchi and Chagatai, and so Ogedei was given the leadership (declared before the mighty Khan's death), and those progress did continue, it didn't reach its zenith until Kubla but alas, exhaustive losses in campaigns vs Japan.

If they'd stayed united and focused on the mainland territories and avoided crossing over into india and Japan, yeah, they would have conquered all, but as others have pointed out, they would NOT have been able to hold that vast of a territory.

A very very interesting character Subutai. Seriously he must have been a true genius of the time, shame he is always left out when talking about the greatest generals when he easily should be at the top. No one have as crazy feats as he does.

[GennGreymane]

But not very effective. The Theodosian Walls were pretty hard to beat.

Even strong walls had weaknesses. Maybe not the wall itself, but camp out for a few months and see what happens, kill supply lines while your at it and hope for the best.

[hellhamster]

By not actually going over the argument? I see your logic and raise you one eyebrow.

You don't have an argument. At least you haven't presented one other than a prediction.

Your knowledge of European history is fascinating. Tell me more of this United European Army!

Do you mean France? Do you mean Spain? Do you mean Byzantium? Do you Mean England?

Why are you attacking me? The other guy was speaking of the "European army", I'm just ironically saying that's not the "European army".

Calm your tits friend, we are having a conversation and you are whipping out a pistol.

[Reeve]

Even strong walls had weaknesses. Maybe not the wall itself, but camp out for a few months and see what happens, kill supply lines while your at it and hope for the best.

Constantinople could be resupplied easily from the water. They also had really very good internal access to water, and farmland inside the walls.

There's a reason the walls managed to hold up without the city being taken for more than a thousand years, when the advent of massive cannons and an overwhelming military force made the difference.

[GennGreymane]

You don't have an argument. At least you haven't presented one other than a prediction.



Why are you attacking me? The other guy was speaking of the "European army", I'm just ironically saying that's not the "European army".

Calm your tits friend, we are having a conversation and you are whipping out a pistol.

I said plenty that you wish to ignore. Im sorry that it hurt your world view.

I dont own a pistol. Your the only one going out of their way to ignore other peoples arguments.

[hellhamster]

I said plenty that you wish to ignore. Im sorry that it hurt your world view.

I dont own a pistol. Your the only one going out of their way to ignore other peoples arguments.

Alright, give me your argument then.

[GennGreymane]

Constantinople could be resupplied easily from the water. They also had really very good internal access to water, and farmland inside the walls.

Would have been a great time for some enemies of Constantinople to take advantage of the situation.

- - - Updated - - -

Alright, give me your argument then.

I already did.

Go ahead and actually give it a read. You read one word and your world view was threatened.

[braeldiil]

Well the Mongols were winning pretty handily when they got called back, so absent that it's likely they could have conquered Europe. Even with the untimely death they did take a decent chunk of it, after all.

But Europe did have a really nice defense at the time - the same one they had against the Romans. Put simply, Europe sucked. It had crappy weather and was full of backwards, uncivilized barbarians. There was no economic engine in Europe to make spending any resources on it worthwhile, and it was a huge distance away from anywhere that mattered. At the end of the day, it really wasn't logical to spend a lot of resources taking and holding it. No one who could take it (and lots of people could have taken it, over the years) would actually have wanted to stay - they'd have immediately left for somewhere warmer with access to the finer things in life.

[ParanoiD84]

You don't have an argument. At least you haven't presented one other than a prediction.



Why are you attacking me? The other guy was speaking of the "European army", I'm just ironically saying that's not the "European army".

Calm your tits friend, we are having a conversation and you are whipping out a pistol.

Do you even know who Subutai was? What makes you think that any European army would even stand a chance? The army's of Hungary and Poland stood no chance.