Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Geckoo]

agreed.

Shuriken Storm generates 1cp for every target it hits which is awesome. it doesn't need to be changed into a finisher. the AoE rotation just needs another ability added to it.

I agree, it doesn't even have to be an active ability but i believe it should be something related with stealth/shadow dance.

Shuriken storm = more combo points = more finishers = more shadow dance charges = more chances to use our aoe talent.

A few examples...
It could be a passive talent that adds a shadow explosion to shadowstrike.
It could be a passive talent that makes our next nightblade after exiting stealth affect all nearby targets.
It could be a passive talent that adds a big chunk of shadow damage to shuriken storm while stealth is active.

And of course, it could be an active finisher or just an active ability, but honestly... i don't think that throwing more buttons to the problem is a way to solve it. AoE tools shouldn't differ too much from your regular toolkit and rotation, specially when we just want to be able to use the spec in all scenarios while we are fully aware that AoE is not our speciality.

BTW, a friendly reminder that death from above, while it sucks, it's actually half an aoe finisher

[kalaratic]

BTW, a friendly reminder that death from above, while it sucks, it's actually half an aoe finisher

probably more like a quarter of an aoe finisher since half the time u never actually land

[Deleted]

I feel Shuriken Storm (fan of knives) always turn any AoE situation into a 2 buttons mindless spam, which is not very satisfying.

I think a better design would be an ability to splash single target damage to nearby foes. This keeps the target priority capabilities without dumbing down the gameplay.

Remove Shuriken Storm and add a Prophecy of Fear style finisher.

[Deleted]

Perhaps an finisher that applies nightblade to targets depending on how many combo points you have and add Shuriken Storm advances you nightblade ticks by 1 on crit.

4 targets would yield 4cp from SSt then use your finisher will put up 4 nightblades, build again with SSt with chance of extra NB ticks and spam eviscerates into kill targets.

Would give sub leg up in council fights and 5man mythic content, where currently they will be garbagio, but because of the cap on targets not that strong on swarming adds that die quickly fights.

[RobertoCarlos]

Legion release date set for August. Get used to how sub is currently playing.

[elfporn]

Legion release date set for August. Get used to how sub is currently playing.

Because its set in stone for the release 4 months from now

[RobertoCarlos]

Because its set in stone for the release 4 months from now

I'm just going by past experience and how blizzard development cycles generally run also new abilities = new icons = more artwork = not even mentioning new animations which they are already fine tuning. If you expect big changes to how sub is playing or any of the other specs I dunno what to say other than I'm jealous of your ignorance.

There will be number tweaks and maybe slight additions or removal of abilities or aspects of said ability. But I can tell already rogues are going to be medicore in at least pvp for half the expansion like warlords. We will be hitting feral druids like wet noodles while they do more damage than us in bear form and just laugh in our face while having more mobility and CC and ability to do anything else.

Having 0 ways to peel melee I can already tell vsing warrior/dk/monk is going to a barrel of laughs.

And pve solo looks fucking lame with half our kit gone. BUT ROBERTO ALL OTHER CLASSES ARE LOSING SHIT TOO ITS PART OF A BIGGER GENERAL CHANGE FOR THE GAME AS A WHOLE AND REMOVAL OF SHIT ACROSS THE BOARD ITS GONA BE GREAT, yea fuck no thanks I want more shit with each expansion not less.

[Wow]

Because its set in stone for the release 4 months from now

While many things can change if we go by history on rogues we'll get nothing but dmg tuning until 7.1/7.2. And if history has shown us anything on that the tuning will be very poor and will likely leave the rogue specs weak.

[Smaxy]

I feel Shuriken Storm (fan of knives) always turn any AoE situation into a 2 buttons mindless spam, which is not very satisfying.

I think a better design would be an ability to splash single target damage to nearby foes. This keeps the target priority capabilities without dumbing down the gameplay.

Remove Shuriken Storm and add a Prophecy of Fear style finisher.

SS and tab targeting Nightblade is hardly "mindless." If that's mindless, what would you consider Outlaw AoE? Moonkin? Frost dk?
90% of the other specs in the game?

[shoegazing]

SS and tab targeting Nightblade is hardly "mindless." If that's mindless, what would you consider Outlaw AoE? Moonkin? Frost dk?
90% of the other specs in the game?

Neither is recognizing when you can use Shuriken Storm to quickly build combo points in PvP (e.g. vs hunter pets, snake traps, stacked opponents) and also doing so without breaking CC

This is the type of depth that we want more of, not less

[Smaxy]

Neither is recognizing when you can use Shuriken Storm to quickly build combo points in PvP (e.g. vs hunter pets, snake traps, stacked opponents) and also doing so without breaking CC

This is the type of depth that we want more of, not less

Agreed. Not to mention a Blade Flurry like ability (activate and continue ST rotation) essentially provides no gameplay depth.. You just turn it on and continue to use ST rotation. As it stands now (and even more so with an AoE finisher) your rotation/actions are different for 1, 2, 3, 5 targets and you have to adjust on the fly to the situation. Not to mention, you also have to account for how much hp the targets have.


What does a "splash dmg from priority target" do for gameplay? It's basically ST rotation with an extra button.

[Deleted]

I'm just going by past experience and how blizzard development cycles generally run also new abilities = new icons = more artwork = not even mentioning new animations which they are already fine tuning.

++

...I want more shit with each expansion not less.

quality over quantity please! +

To all:

[no19]

Because its set in stone for the release 4 months from now

4 months is nothing given the history of rogue changes. If anything, my reaction when I saw it today is that I think we are almost certainly doomed with only 4 months left. And the whole expansion's quality will probably suffer.

[Deleted]

Neither is recognizing when you can use Shuriken Storm to quickly build combo points in PvP (e.g. vs hunter pets, snake traps, stacked opponents) and also doing so without breaking CC

This is the type of depth that we want more of, not less

Can be solved easily by moving it to a pvp talent.

- - - Updated - - -

Agreed. Not to mention a Blade Flurry like ability (activate and continue ST rotation) essentially provides no gameplay depth.. You just turn it on and continue to use ST rotation. As it stands now (and even more so with an AoE finisher) your rotation/actions are different for 1, 2, 3, 5 targets and you have to adjust on the fly to the situation. Not to mention, you also have to account for how much hp the targets have.


What does a "splash dmg from priority target" do for gameplay? It's basically ST rotation with an extra button.

It adds planning/pooling (if ability has a cooldown and limited
Duration) giving a bursty feel true to te spec. Allow scaling with all the other abilities like shadow dance, trinkets or proc that you could take advantage of.

There's a lot similar mechanics in this game and they do feel rewarding. But yeah anyway it's too late for it to happen.

[Smaxy]

Can be solved easily by moving it to a pvp talent.

- - - Updated - - -



It adds planning/pooling (if ability has a cooldown and limited
Duration) giving a bursty feel true to te spec. Allow scaling with all the other abilities like shadow dance, trinkets or proc that you could take advantage of.

There's a lot similar mechanics in this game and they do feel rewarding. But yeah anyway it's too late for it to happen.

I'd rather have planning and pooling on other elements of the spec instead of getting rid of the one unique thing about our AoE currently. Not to mention, you still have planning and pooling with the current iteration of Shuriken Storm. When adds are coming, you pool energy... How is that any less planning or pooling then adding Blade Flurry? And since when does fishing for trinket or procs work well with AoE? Adds spawn and need to die for PvE that's how it works in dungeons and raids. For PvP, AoE situations appear and disappear in an instant. If we had time to wait for trinkets or procs on adds we wouldn't need to worry about not having meaningful AoE, because that means they wouldn't need to die. So... instead, you'd like to remove the one positive aspect of our AoE so you can fish for procs/trinkets for AoE.

and the only thing "rewarding" about using Blade Flurry as a Combat/Outlaw or Moonkin using Starfall is that you use it and then just go back to ST, business as usual. The "reward" is its simplicity.

[Deleted]

I'd rather have planning and pooling on other elements of the spec instead of getting rid of the one unique thing about our AoE currently. Not to mention, you still have planning and pooling with the current iteration of Shuriken Storm. When adds are coming, you pool energy... How is that any less planning or pooling then adding Blade Flurry? And since when does fishing for trinket or procs work well with AoE? Adds spawn and need to die for PvE that's how it works in dungeons and raids. For PvP, AoE situations appear and disappear in an instant. If we had time to wait for trinkets or procs on adds we wouldn't need to worry about not having meaningful AoE, because that means they wouldn't need to die. So... instead, you'd like to remove the one positive aspect of our AoE so you can fish for procs/trinkets for AoE.

and the only thing "rewarding" about using Blade Flurry as a Combat/Outlaw or Moonkin using Starfall is that you use it and then just go back to ST, business as usual. The "reward" is its simplicity.

Blade flurry has no duration. The reward would be how much damage you can burst during the splash debuff on the target.

[Smaxy]

Blade flurry has no duration. The reward would be how much damage you can burst during the splash debuff on the target.

I don't think they're going to give a spec of one class the same ability as another spec in the same class, but with a cooldown. Plus, this would cause huge balance issues on the ST damage of Sub. ST dps would have to be massively nerfed unless this had very low possible uptime, then what's the point of even having it?

I'll take what we have now and an AoE finisher as a talent.

[Deleted]

It's just a matter of balancing out numbers, you don't have to touch the ST damage. You can imagine the debuff splash 100% or more instead of 30% like blade flurry but with a limited window.

anyway let's forget the idea.

[kalaratic]

ya knowing there's only 4 months till release is fucking scary. the second beta comes out Celestalon can finally remove his earplugs and just say "it's beta, there are bigger priorities". really doubt we're going to ever see a blue post in the sub thread again and if there is one it will prob be a one word reply to clarify something obvious to look like they are participating equally.

[Lorentz]

Huge no for changing Shuriken Storm, IMO. It allows us to focus priority targets unlike any class in the game (SS-> finisher -> SS -> finisher, repeat). Why would you want to change this unique gameplay that we have?

Still lobbying for AoE finisher as a talent, balanced to be decent/moderate/average with a ST tradeoff.

Celestalon said long ago that they don't like idea of AoE Eviscerate. Wouldn't spend energy on that front honestly.