Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Jaronicity]

I've done plenty of sims with the legendaries I currently have access to and I've found so many combinations to be neck and neck. If I can get my hands on the DI bracers then I can actually replace Denial with a Shadowblade and run shoulders+ring and it sims ahead. I know my sims have also put a Vigor ring combination ahead on aoe fights (for total DPS not priority target by a small margin) so it does seem you can pick and choose as long as you have appropriate filler gear. So, yeah, lots of things can happen as you get new gear. Probably just stick to Shoulders+Bracers for tonight but may swap bracers for Shadowblade on AOE fights like Mistress or even inquisition.

EDIT: Real quick just simmed the aforementioned combos and they came out both at 1.08M and change for ST patchwerk. I imagine as more targets increase Shadowblade becomes more valuable.

[Deleted]

I've done plenty of sims with the legendaries I currently have access to and I've found so many combinations to be neck and neck. If I can get my hands on the DI bracers then I can actually replace Denial with a Shadowblade and run shoulders+ring and it sims ahead. I know my sims have also put a Vigor ring combination ahead on aoe fights (for total DPS not priority target by a small margin) so it does seem you can pick and choose as long as you have appropriate filler gear. So, yeah, lots of things can happen as you get new gear. Probably just stick to Shoulders+Bracers for tonight but may swap bracers for Shadowblade on AOE fights like Mistress or even inquisition.

EDIT: Real quick just simmed the aforementioned combos and they came out both at 1.08M and change for ST patchwerk. I imagine as more targets increase Shadowblade becomes more valuable.

I can't confirm. For pure ST Mantle/Hands combination sims nearly the same as Mantle/Bracers for me. When i sim heavy movement or Mistress, Mantle/Ring is like ~30k behind. So even on heavy movement fights Mantle/Bracers is the bet Setup for me.

What i am totally confused about are my current stat weights which i simmed wit raidbots Mantle/Bracers:


Agi 25.88
Vers 23.94
Crit 22.94
Mastery 22.67
Haste 12.38

[Won7on]

Both, raidbots and amr are up-to-date. On heavy movement fights Sin pulls ahead by a large margin tbh. I guess people with bis legendaries in both specs and being invested in either will benefit most and just switch from boss to boss.

Gonna be honest, I don't quite understand comments like this. I see this said a LOT, "Sin performs better when there's boss downtime". Uh, how? Vendetta is a 20-second duration, TB is 9 seconds, KB is 14 seconds, and often NONE of these are aligned, meaning you've got some sort of cooldown running 50%+ of the time, and losing uptime during these is a significant hit.

Sub, on the other hand, bursts really hard for 6 seconds every 25-30 seconds and can then basically afk away from the boss for the next 19. As long as you get your full DFA combo off (read: as long as you're not dumb and leave yourself >6 sec on boss timers), you're basically golden and can soak all the mechanics you want. Sure, Sin's damage while away from the boss is higher since it has stronger DoTs, but Sin's damage loss from being away from the boss is also higher.

Sub can even swap between 25 sec CD burst and 30 sec CD burst by using 2p+2p or 4p, if one of those is better for aligning with boss mechanics for whatever reason.

I don't really get it.

[Jaronicity]

I can't confirm. For pure ST Mantle/Hands combination sims nearly the same as Mantle/Bracers for me. When i sim heavy movement or Mistress, Mantle/Ring is like ~30k behind. So even on heavy movement fights Mantle/Bracers is the bet Setup for me.

What i am totally confused about are my current stat weights which i simmed wit raidbots Mantle/Bracers:


Agi 25.88
Vers 23.94
Crit 22.94
Mastery 22.67
Haste 12.38

Can't confirm that my individual setup is different than yours? I don't have the hands so obviously I won't be simming them. I also don't have any SB relics if that has any bearing here. Quick sparknotes from things I just ran with my gear setups.

My current sims are as follows:
Pure ST Patchwerk (as if these exist anymore):
Shoulders+Bracers : 1084629 dps
Shoulders+Vigor : 1080874 dps

If I change it to 2-target:
Shoulders+Bracers : 1232679 dps, 1144285 dps to main target
Shoulders+Vigor : 1251258 dps, 1159739 dps to main target

Light Movement puts them at nearly identical spots as well. Add cleave favours bracers, Heavy movement favours bracers as well until I add a second target.

[Vixae]

Hi guys new sub rogue player here, switched a week ago. For some reason I seem to have a lot of issues getting the 4th ability off in one shadow dance, so lets say I DFA with 6cp > ShD/SS (Macro) on way down > SS > Evis > SS, I cant seem to get the last one off and it turns into a backstab instead. About 25% of the time I succeed to do it, but sadly more often I do not. So far messing around with custom lag tolerance 0-400 did not help either.

I've been trying to figure out why this happens, but I ran out of ideas. Any tips/ideas are welcome.

[Deleted]

Damn, I really want to keep using 2p+2p over 4p but at this point it's simming 50k lower.

Big difference is a 4p sim gets 5.7% damage out of Dread Torrent, but a 2p+2p sim only gets 3.8%.

actions.cds+=/use_item,name=specter_of_betrayal,if=talent.dark_shadow.enabled&buff.shadow_dance.up&(!set _bonus.tier20_4pc|buff.symbols_of_death.up|(!talent.death_from_above.enabled&((mantle_dura tion>=3|!equipped.mantle_of_the_master_assassin)|cooldown.vanish.remains>=43)))

Just to make sure, with 2p+2p I use Specter with Vanish+Symbols+Dance, and then again off CD in the downtime so it's up again for the next Vanish. Would this APL do that correctly? It seems like it would wait for Dance to use the 2nd one, which would delay the 3rd use too long to line up with Vanish.

Also, I think I average way more than 3.8% with it, here's a Goroth 5.1%: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=16, here's 2 Sisters logs at 4.47% and 5.77%

Course, even if the 2p+2p sim did the same damage with its Dread Torrent, there'd still be 22k DPS separating the 2 builds... I just really hate playing without T19 2p and I'll do anything to play 2p+2p or 2p+4p if I can. :P

- - - Updated - - -



Wow these stat weights (Bracers + Vigor ring). I guess, unsurprisingly, Crit is actually really good when you take the Shoulders off.

I have very bad rng towards gear drops. My crit is stacked so hard currently, that I have over 43% crit but only 80% mastery in sub setup. Unfortunately I still dont have both the bracers and the vigor ring :-/. My evi has 73% crit chance xD (but this does not prevent you from not critting 5 times in a row with your dfa evi :-/)

[Vixae]

Hi guys new sub rogue player here, switched a week ago. For some reason I seem to have a lot of issues getting the 4th ability off in one shadow dance, so lets say I DFA with 6cp > ShD/SS (Macro) on way down > SS > Evis > SS, I cant seem to get the last one off and it turns into a backstab instead. About 25% of the time I succeed to do it, but sadly more often I do not. So far messing around with custom lag tolerance 0-400 did not help either.

I've been trying to figure out why this happens, but I ran out of ideas. Any tips/ideas are welcome.

Anyone maybe?

[Critical92]

Don't use the shd/ss macro for dfa, you use shd befor eviscerate uses your cp, so maybe u waste this ss. Another reason could be not enough energy before you dfa.

[Ace192]

So a little OT from all you guys talking about end game stuff/builds/etc. I am leveling up a couple of alts but rogue has definitely caught my fancy. Is sub the spec to go? I've seen a ton of people recommend it and it looks really good. A lot of fun stuff going on in the spec and I would definitely love to play it. However I also hear that this spec is one of the most legendary reliant specs. Is this true? Is sub really only good with the bracers and shoulders?

[honung]

So a little OT from all you guys talking about end game stuff/builds/etc. I am leveling up a couple of alts but rogue has definitely caught my fancy. Is sub the spec to go? I've seen a ton of people recommend it and it looks really good. A lot of fun stuff going on in the spec and I would definitely love to play it. However I also hear that this spec is one of the most legendary reliant specs. Is this true? Is sub really only good with the bracers and shoulders?

Nah, don't think it's unusually dependant on legendaries anymore post-nerf. Situationally legendaries can be completely bonkers though, such as shoulders in Mythic+ being incredibly overpowered.

[Deleted]

I believe once weapon master is fixed they also rework the sub build once again a little bit. A proper working weapon master in the current situation would be a little bit to overpowered and it would be a massive rng shit show on the ranks (who got 15 out of 15 dfa double evi crits).

[Varolyn]

So a little OT from all you guys talking about end game stuff/builds/etc. I am leveling up a couple of alts but rogue has definitely caught my fancy. Is sub the spec to go? I've seen a ton of people recommend it and it looks really good. A lot of fun stuff going on in the spec and I would definitely love to play it. However I also hear that this spec is one of the most legendary reliant specs. Is this true? Is sub really only good with the bracers and shoulders?

You'll need really strong legendaries to get 95+ parses, but in order to be competitive, you don't really need them. Shoulders, Shadowblade ring, and Bracers sort of serve as the "Holy Trinity" for sub. Any combination with those three will usually yield good results, with shoulders and bracers pulling slightly ahead. Otherwise, sub has a lot of options for legendaries in order to do competitive dps. Belt, cloak, gloves, Ravenholdt Ring, and even Prydaz are good legendaries for sub.

tl;dr: Sub deals very good damage with almost any two legendaries, but like every other spec in legion, you'll need the best in order to unlock it's full potential.

[Deleted]

So a little OT from all you guys talking about end game stuff/builds/etc. I am leveling up a couple of alts but rogue has definitely caught my fancy. Is sub the spec to go? I've seen a ton of people recommend it and it looks really good. A lot of fun stuff going on in the spec and I would definitely love to play it. However I also hear that this spec is one of the most legendary reliant specs. Is this true? Is sub really only good with the bracers and shoulders?

This aint true anymore. It was very dependent on Shadow Satyr's Walk before patch. After that rework any dps legendary is viable, but surely you'll need best in slot legendaries to compete with other rogues. Shoulders / Bracers is the best combination for straight single target fights. On fights where you have to switch targets a lot, Vigor ring and Bracers with T19 2P + T20 4P is even a better combination. Besides T19 2P makes your rotation much smoother.

Anyone maybe?

I guess pooling is the key word.

I believe once weapon master is fixed they also rework the sub build once again a little bit. A proper working weapon master in the current situation would be a little bit to overpowered and it would be a massive rng shit show on the ranks (who got 15 out of 15 dfa double evi crits).

Did i miss something? Have they mentioned to fix it yet? I mean this bug has been here from the very beginning and is still not fixed. I doubt they will fix it before 8.0 and with 8.0 Sub is gonna get a rework anyways (as you said).

[Deleted]

Did i miss something? Have they mentioned to fix it yet? I mean this bug has been here from the very beginning and is still not fixed. I doubt they will fix it before 8.0 and with 8.0 Sub is gonna get a rework anyways (as you said).

It seems they working on it on the ptr

[TheRogue]

Is anyone else finding that soul rip is sometimes hitting while you are using vanish abuse macro? Meaning you get a bit less time on shoulder buff?

Im not sure if it is causing my stealth to randomly break or something else, about 3/4 times i stay in stealth til I hit DFA. But using the macro the same way every time I do it, sometimes the stealth breaks before I use DFA.

[cafecito820]

Question from a rogue who is still leveling (I'm only 105, so I can't just go sim it):

Is there a massive difference between Death from Above and Master of Shadows (gaining 25 Energy when entering Shadow Dance)? I'm not a big fan of the "align the stars and blow your load" playstyle, and am just curious how much realistic DPS using Master of Shadows would cost me. I checked the SimCraft site, and even in Tier 20, it is only simming a 10k difference on Patchwerk:

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T20M.html

[Xerroth]

Well from my understanding Master of Shadows is not that great , at least not at decent gear levels never really played Sub below 880ish, a better build for you would be going 2310012 (1, 2, and 3 being the talent on that row with 0 being whatever you like) called the marked for death build which is more of a sustain build afaik although keep in mind sub in general is very much line everything up and "blow your load" by design

[InfernalDark]

MfD build not viable anymore? Removed from all the guides.

[Deleted]

MfD build not viable anymore? Removed from all the guides.

Depends what you're doing. I've found it to be really good for upper Kara (curator adds, medeiv adds and ghost packs at the start) and coen (every boss has priority adds you single target down, disgustingly strong on mephistroph).

[Laurix]

MfD build not viable anymore? Removed from all the guides.

What guides? I've been looking for a good Sub one.