Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Nekroman]

Trained soldier has simmed higher than satyr for me for both sub and assass since it came out. Even if it didnt, ill take a guaranteed boost to finisher/poison damage over an rng bolt proc any day, very much especially for progression.

[Feali]

Is DfA bugged on Fallen Avatar? The Evis part never hits for me in Phase 1.

[Varolyn]

Is DfA bugged on Fallen Avatar? The Evis part never hits for me in Phase 1.

DFA is pretty wonky on Fallen Avatar in general. Top rogues are still going DFA on the fight but if it's giving you issues you might want to consider using MfD or going assassination assuming you have decent relics, leggos, etc. on the fight.

[Feali]

DFA is pretty wonky on Fallen Avatar in general. Top rogues are still going DFA on the fight but if it's giving you issues you might want to consider using MfD or going assassination assuming you have decent relics, leggos, etc. on the fight.

I'd prefer if I never had to play DfA but oh well.. it has flavor no doubt but it' so shitty designed.

[honung]

Is DfA bugged on Fallen Avatar? The Evis part never hits for me in Phase 1.

From what I've noticed, you need to be in front of the boss when you use it. If you're off to the side it doesn't go off properly.

[Varolyn]

I'd prefer if I never had to play DfA but oh well.. it has flavor no doubt but it' so shitty designed.

Well, looking at the t21 bonuses for sub, I don't think DFA will be the flavor after Tomb is done. The bonus just doesn't synergize with it well, while MfD does. Moreover, the bonus is currently bugged with DfA, but I think they will be fixed before Antorus goes live anyway.

[Feali]

Well, looking at the t21 bonuses for sub, I don't think DFA will be the flavor after Tomb is done. The bonus just doesn't synergize with it well, while MfD does. Moreover, the bonus is currently bugged with DfA, but I think they will be fixed before Antorus goes live anyway.

Is sub still going to be the go to spec in 7.3?

[Varolyn]

Is sub still going to be the go to spec in 7.3?

The hell I know, Blizz seems to save tuning for the .5 patches now. But if it is, I think the reign of DFA will be over.

[Kwakman]

Few questions, shamefully asking for other peoples opinions since I donthave enough time to test things myself:
- Is Weaponmaster truly fixed with DFA? Heard some rumors of it being fixed and they did that crazy testing on the PTR so I figured I'd ask.
- With our new set bonus in tier 21 do we start moving towards more versatility and possibly more Backstab oriented relics? Mastery will worsen when Backstab gets an even bigger part of our dmg pie and doesn't benefit from mastery

[Deleted]

Yes Weaponmaster is fixed for Death from Above, it's only worth taking if there are 3+ targets.

[Deleted]

Afaik WM is 'fixed' in a way that evis is blacklisted. So yes your evis part goes off now but it will never proc on evis (does proc on everything else), so I doubt it's worth taking apart from M+ or smt.

[Deleted]

The Eviserate on DfA can proc WM, I have logs of it proccing.

[Nekroman]

Yea it procs on evis. Used it for harj on Wednesday. I switched to sub to avoid rng tho so idk if ill use it often.

[Varolyn]

Yea it procs on evis. Used it for harj on Wednesday. I switched to sub to avoid rng tho so idk if ill use it often.

Then you are going to love the sub t21 4-set!

[Banan]

Does anyone know when mastery pulls ahead statwise? Idk if im simming wrong but crit pulls ahead alot in my sims, ilvl 926, missing both shoulders and CoF that might help bump mastery's value but still should be higher than it current weight imo.
Here is how it looks right now.

Crit: 23.66
Agi: 22.50
Mastery: 21.50
Vers: 21.33
Haste: 10.60

[Drub]

Looks right. Crit is really nice, hence why the shoulders are so good. Mastery would definitely get bumped up if you had them, same with vers probably.

[Won7on]

Sub Rogues on M Maiden, do you hold Vanish/CDs for damage buff or use it off CD?

[Deleted]

Sub Rogues on M Maiden, do you hold Vanish/CDs for damage buff or use it off CD?

I've been having similar results with both options, but since you ideally want to break her shield asap, it makes the most sense to hold it for the overall health of your raid group, I guess.

- - - Updated - - -

Does anyone know when mastery pulls ahead statwise? Idk if im simming wrong but crit pulls ahead alot in my sims, ilvl 926, missing both shoulders and CoF that might help bump mastery's value but still should be higher than it current weight imo.
Here is how it looks right now.

Crit: 23.66
Agi: 22.50
Mastery: 21.50
Vers: 21.33
Haste: 10.60

Mastery doesn't pull ahead by much at currently achieveable Ilvls unless you have the shoulders - I'm 937 with shoulders (Not using CoF unless I'm on a bracer fight). Sitting on 11k mastery and 8k vers, and these are my current weights: Agility=26.04, CritRating=22.81, HasteRating=14.08, MasteryRating=26.52, Versatility=25.29.

That's a Glove/shoulder sim.

This is Shoulder/Bracer + cof: Agility=26.01, CritRating=23.36, HasteRating=16.15, MasteryRating=26.41, Versatility=24.18

[Won7on]

So.

A small, but important point regarding Vanish usage:

https://subtlety.guide seems to suggest Vanish SS DFA-Dance SS SS Evisc SS. However, doing it this way causes the 100% Crit buff to fall off before the Evisc, which I don't quite understand. Seems like making sure the huge Dance-buffed Evisc crits is more important than replacing one BS with a SS.

I asked in the Sub discord and the response I got was "ss at 0, dfa at 1, ss at 2.5, ss at 3.5, evis at 4.5", which may work in theory but just not in practice. In practice, there's about a ~0.5 sec delay after you land before you can SS (even spamming Dance+SS as hard as you can). And before you say that this is me being bad, it even happens in the World #1 Goroth parse: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...tstart=3737134

"00:00:09.553 最靓蘑菇头 Eviscerate Goroth *11143157*
00:00:10.086 最靓蘑菇头 Shadowstrike Goroth *3123877*"

(~0.5sec apart)

And then, as a result:

"00:00:12.067 最靓蘑菇头's Master Assassin's Initiative fades from 最靓蘑菇头
00:00:12.092 最靓蘑菇头 Eviscerate Goroth *7302926*"

I don't get it, is this latency-dependent? I'm only playing on 50ms. Is it helped by macros? I'm spamming as hard as I can, I'm just GCD locked. Don't see any points a macro could do it faster. Are you supposed to just hope for Gutripper to carry you on the crit? Or is all the established literature wrong about this?

[shaunika123]

So.

A small, but important point regarding Vanish usage:

https://subtlety.guide seems to suggest Vanish SS DFA-Dance SS SS Evisc SS. However, doing it this way causes the 100% Crit buff to fall off before the Evisc, which I don't quite understand. Seems like making sure the huge Dance-buffed Evisc crits is more important than replacing one BS with a SS.

I asked in the Sub discord and the response I got was "ss at 0, dfa at 1, ss at 2.5, ss at 3.5, evis at 4.5", which may work in theory but just not in practice. In practice, there's about a ~0.5 sec delay after you land before you can SS (even spamming Dance+SS as hard as you can). And before you say that this is me being bad, it even happens in the World #1 Goroth parse: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...tstart=3737134

"00:00:09.553 最靓蘑菇头 Eviscerate Goroth *11143157*
00:00:10.086 最靓蘑菇头 Shadowstrike Goroth *3123877*"

(~0.5sec apart)

And then, as a result:

"00:00:12.067 最靓蘑菇头's Master Assassin's Initiative fades from 最靓蘑菇头
00:00:12.092 最靓蘑菇头 Eviscerate Goroth *7302926*"

I don't get it, is this latency-dependent? I'm only playing on 50ms. Is it helped by macros? I'm spamming as hard as I can, I'm just GCD locked. Don't see any points a macro could do it faster. Are you supposed to just hope for Gutripper to carry you on the crit? Or is all the established literature wrong about this?

because a crit shadowstrike from vanish(IE +25% dmg) will most likely do similar dmg to non finality evis crit, depending on your vers/mast/amount of WP relics
but evis also has a much larger chance to crit, so statistically it's worth more to SS

in reality there really wont be a difference either way