Legion - Subtlety discussion

[shaunika123]

Shadow dance giving back 100 energy (with relentless strikes talent) is stupid. It promotes a braindead playstyle of mashing your spenders because you want to be low energy at all times.

The idea of pooling energy while you wait for shadow techniques to fill a 5th combo point to minimise rng loss of combo points won't be a thing if pooling energy is a bad thing, so anticipation is going to be required to catch your shadow techniques combo points. I've yet to see shadow techniques in action though so maybe I am getting ahead of myself.

I would like to see them remove the on use energy return and shift that power somewhere else in the spec. Then at least we will have some sort of pooling gameplay.

what exactly is the difference between paying attention to keeping your energy low and paying attention to keep it high?
also im pretty sure vigor is gonna be the best since that allows an extra ability to be cast during dance which is huge.
and if ur not running vigor then u lose 10-15 energy every time you dance.

shadow dance is a lot more flexible
you only have to use it if you're:
a: at 3 stacks
b: symbols is falling off

otherwise you're fine with waiting for it, so it's not the end of the world if you have to pool a little for shadow techniques and then spend your energy after using a finisher.


and obviously find weakness is "stronger"
the whole point of new sub is that dance is a lot more frequent and flexible
not your 1 minute hero ability outside of which you hit like a wet noodle.
so yeah

[Deleted]

the whole point of new sub is that dance is a lot more frequent and flexible

Flexible? Not that much. You have 4-5 seconds window to refresh SoD without clipping. And you need to repeat it every 20 seconds.

While idea of stacking shadow dance is great, SoD destroys its flexibility.

[elfporn]

I disagree.

Find weakness is much powerful debuff with 2x shorter duration and 2x stronger dps increase. It makes our stealth special moment of high damage.

But Symbols of death? We will probably have to keep it up almost 100% of time. It doesn't makes our stealth moment of high damage, it makes it moment when we boost our damage outside stealth.

As I said before: affliction warlocks already have this thing. Each 30 seconds they spend randomly generated (even similar resources system) souls shards for soulburn: haunt. And this is boring.

can you quantify the damage increase from when FW is up, to when it's not? how much is gained from ignoring armor?

not that it matters. FW will not be coming back due to the shift towards shadow damage. it's a thing of the past. And about time too (in my opinion)

- - - Updated - - -

Flexible? Not that much. You have 4-5 seconds window to refresh SoD without clipping. And you need to repeat it every 20 seconds.

While idea of stacking shadow dance is great, SoD destroys its flexibility.

this is incorrect, SoD doesn't require dance to be refreshed, just stealth. And with the tools in legion we'll have more ways to enter stealth more frequently than ever. you should definitely have 100% uptime on SoD.

[Kourvith]

SoD doesn't require dance to be refreshed, just stealth. And with the tools in legion we'll have more ways to enter stealth more frequently than ever.

Correct.
This artifact talent is being largely underestimated..

[Iuffy]

Correct.
This artifact talent is being largely underestimated..

IDK how often you plan on being able to sprint without taking damage, especially when you want to do it

[ReleaseDay]

Pruning ruins shit again.

[dak1]

Yep. And despite all feelings of love for FW (lol) the shift to shadow damage necessitates the removal of FW in favor of SoD.

Are there any simcraft tools or similar that can map out legion rotations yet? Or am i jumpin' the gun

Impatient as i am, perhaps i should wait till atleast shadow tech is working....though HaT could be a stand-in

I'd like to see Symbols of Death removed.

Then turn Shadow Blades into a passive that does the following:

Shadow Blades: (Passive) While in stealth and for 10 seconds after leaving stealth, all of your attacks and special abilities that deal physical damage deal shadow damage instead and all of your attacks that normally deal shadow damage have their damage increased by 20%.

Make Shadow Dance and Subterfuge also count as "stealth" for Shadow Blades, so that it's active for the entire duration of Shadow Dance + 10 seconds.

There would be slightly less complexity here than with Find Weakness, since you wouldn't need to try to time your last Ambush to extend the duration as long as possible (you'd get the +10 seconds automatically), but I think that's more along the lines of the kind of esoteric complexity that I'm OK with removing.

Shadow Dance would still be a big damage cooldown, since you'd get the 100% ignore armor, although now it would be in the form of Shadow damage. Gloomblade would have an interesting interaction with the delayed burst, and there would also be some interaction with some of our artifact abilities, like Goremaw's Bite that would get +20% damage (you'd probably open with Goremaw's Bite, which would be a lot more satisfying than opening with Symbols of Death — BIG NUMBERS!).

I think this would also solve the issue with Shadow Blades not interacting very well with our design in Legion, with Slice and Dice being gone.

Then lower the cooldown of Vanish to 1 minute to fit it into the rotation a bit better (which could be maintained up to 52 seconds with proper spacing, even without Deepning Shadows proccing, and would leave it there to help fill in a gap if Deepening Shadow procs were proving problematic). Vanish down to 1 minute would also make up for losing Prep (and the -30 sec perk from WoD).

Shadow Dance triggering your abilities to do shadow damage also seems fairly thematically appropriate.

This would also keep most of our rotation fairly similar:

• Shadow Dance (8sec) -> Shadow Dance (4sec with 3 charges and RNG of Deepening Shadows)
• Find Weakness (triggered by Vanish and Shadowmeld) -> Shadow Blades (want to weave in Goremaw's Bite on CD during SB, triggered by Vanish)
• Rupture (24sec duration at 5cp, -3sec on mulistrike tick) -> Nightblade (16sec duration at 5cp)
• Slice and Dice (36sec duration at 5cp) -> Enveloping Shadows (20sec duration at 5cp) (optional, might be Alacrity or Premed, which are passive, instead)

I think I'd also up Shadowstrike back to generating 2 combo points, instead of 1.

Oh, and then give us a silence with a shadow theme useable while stealthed to replace Garrote...

Deathsign: Empower your daggers with shadowy energy and carve the sign of death on your enemies throat, silencing them for 3 seconds and causing 366% Shadow damage over 8 seconds. Awards 1 combo point.

That would also give Nightelves something interesting to do with Shadowmeld. After leaving Shadow Dance or stealth ending, but inside that 10 second window, you'd want to Meld -> Deathsign for a small damage increase, although the damage difference would be fairly minimal. You could potentially tune Deathsign's damage even slightly higher, to make an interesting choice between Shadowstrike (440% damage and 2 cp) and Deathsign (n% * 1.2 over 8 seconds and 1cp).

I think I could get behind that design and enjoy it in both PvE and PvP.

[Smaxy]

We aren't getting a silence back. Its gone.

[Deleted]

We aren't getting a silence back. Its gone.

For that reason, they better give rogues more damage output to overcome the removal of certain abilities, such as garrote.

[Deleted]

For that reason, they better give rogues more damage output to overcome the removal of certain abilities, such as garrote.

^This

Not only that, opening on mages is going to be a nightmare. Blink and pet nova instantly, having to blow cloak just to get near them or use step is not going to be fun at all. Dance will be pretty scary for them if they have no block with shadowstrike teleporting, so dunno might be better. No garroting a healer coming out of cc is a shame also.

My hope is they also tone down how much of our damage comes from auto-attacks as well, make our builders feel more meaningful!!!

[Wow]

My hope is they also tone down how much of our damage comes from auto-attacks as well, make our builders feel more meaningful!!!

Anything can happen in tuning but as it is now all three specs active dmg is a lot higher than live. No snd on 2 specs moves away from passive dmg a lot and so far they've made up combat's lost dmg with active dmg.

[Deleted]

^This

Not only that, opening on mages is going to be a nightmare. Blink and pet nova instantly, having to blow cloak just to get near them or use step is not going to be fun at all. Dance will be pretty scary for them if they have no block with shadowstrike teleporting, so dunno might be better. No garroting a healer coming out of cc is a shame also.

My hope is they also tone down how much of our damage comes from auto-attacks as well, make our builders feel more meaningful!!!

This too*I agree.

Regarding the 1st point: we have many more SD's now resulting in more damage output hopefully; plus shadowstrike teleports the rogue, perhaps making it worth/balanced as garrote got removed.

2nd point: I sincerely agree that most of sub-rogue's damage must come from special abilities, that way the spec is more PvP oriented as it has been considered *always*. Making the spec dependent of auto-attacks makes it more PvE oriented, look at combat passives, Main Gauche and etc. This is why I agree with the removal of SnD - there are other creative options to earn energy/combo points actively or passively, such as the new or old premeditation for example.

I have always seen sub-rogues as a "spoon". *Hit and Run*, all of this without taking damage preferably. See the new talent: Thief's Bargain.

[Smaxy]

My guess is they looked at the amount of CC we had and determined it was redundant to also give us a silence. I say this because Blind came back, but not Garotte.

Regardless, I highly reccomend you guys sit down on Alpha and carefully evaluate the spec and things Blizzard reps have said regarding where they want to take it and with these two bits of info, write up a constructive post regarding your issues and your suggestions. If you don't have Alpha I'll try to answer specific questions, but I feel its something you often have to experience yourself to get the complete picture.

I feel like I'm just linking posts I made from the Legion topic, but I wrote up a very long overview of the talents on that topic if anyone is interested. I'm a Mythic Raider who PvPs very casually so my perspective is likely different from many others on this board- and that's fine. We need a wide variety of opinions from different types of players. The more well thought out (I hope what I wrote constitutes as being well thought out XD), constructive posts that the devs can go over, the better.

[Jaronicity]

I feel like I'm just linking posts I made from the Legion topic, but I wrote up a very long overview of the talents on that topic if anyone is interested. I'm a Mythic Raider who PvPs very casually so my perspective is likely different from many others on this board- and that's fine. We need a wide variety of opinions from different types of players. The more well thought out (I hope what I wrote constitutes as being well thought out XD), constructive posts that the devs can go over, the better.

o.O You were not kidding. Gonna have to put a pot of coffee on for this one...and I don't even drink coffee.

[maddnesskhaz]

o.O You were not kidding. Gonna have to put a pot of coffee on for this one...and I don't even drink coffee.

Oh it's not THAT long!

I'm going to have to reroll a new Sub char since I still can't load any char parked at the Shrine and write up some more detailed feedback after more time on a target dummy.

Initial thoughts are;

• SD isn't really a "DPS" cooldown; the DPS comes from the SoD buff; which doesn't stack. This limits the point of using Shadow Dance again within the ~20 second window that SoD is up until you need to refresh.
• SoD isn't a pleasant addition to the rotation; Shadowstrike still feels meaningless most of the time.
• "Stealth" (Vanish / Dance / Stealth) only has value in PvE because it allows you to refresh SoD, which I'm not sure I find particularly enjoyable.

I think it's an improvement over the initial Sub build they put out, but there's a whole lot that doesn't flow intuitively.

It feels so very wrong to say this, but Arms actually is a more satisfying spec to play at the moment. Each ability 'feels' rewarding to press, and various abilities all tie in closely with one another, Sub still lacks a synergy between various abilities, where T18 4pc really made each finisher feel valuable and important.

Note; I'm a massive fan of Restless Blades type mechanics.

[elfporn]

Oh it's not THAT long!

I'm going to have to reroll a new Sub char since I still can't load any char parked at the Shrine and write up some more detailed feedback after more time on a target dummy.

Initial thoughts are;

• SD isn't really a "DPS" cooldown; the DPS comes from the SoD buff; which doesn't stack. This limits the point of using Shadow Dance again within the ~20 second window that SoD is up until you need to refresh.
• SoD isn't a pleasant addition to the rotation; Shadowstrike still feels meaningless most of the time.
• "Stealth" (Vanish / Dance / Stealth) only has value in PvE because it allows you to refresh SoD, which I'm not sure I find particularly enjoyable.

I think it's an improvement over the initial Sub build they put out, but there's a whole lot that doesn't flow intuitively.

It feels so very wrong to say this, but Arms actually is a more satisfying spec to play at the moment. Each ability 'feels' rewarding to press, and various abilities all tie in closely with one another, Sub still lacks a synergy between various abilities, where T18 4pc really made each finisher feel valuable and important.

Note; I'm a massive fan of Restless Blades type mechanics.

Your conclusion about SD is the same i've come to. I think SD/SoD will work out. But now that those are looking better, shadow blades is not fitting the puzzle.

Shadow blades needs to be changed to something more meaningful, whether it's a passive that is triggered via another ability(synergy) or just made more powerful with a shadow damage modifier.

The restless blades effect, albeit inverted, comes from legendary bracers and modifies duration of shadow blades based on CP usage over time. I think 'sin has a similar piece somewhere for vendetta cd reduction.

[Jaronicity]

Oh it's not THAT long!

I'm going to have to reroll a new Sub char since I still can't load any char parked at the Shrine and write up some more detailed feedback after more time on a target dummy.

Initial thoughts are;

• SD isn't really a "DPS" cooldown; the DPS comes from the SoD buff; which doesn't stack. This limits the point of using Shadow Dance again within the ~20 second window that SoD is up until you need to refresh.
• SoD isn't a pleasant addition to the rotation; Shadowstrike still feels meaningless most of the time.
• "Stealth" (Vanish / Dance / Stealth) only has value in PvE because it allows you to refresh SoD, which I'm not sure I find particularly enjoyable.

I think it's an improvement over the initial Sub build they put out, but there's a whole lot that doesn't flow intuitively.

It feels so very wrong to say this, but Arms actually is a more satisfying spec to play at the moment. Each ability 'feels' rewarding to press, and various abilities all tie in closely with one another, Sub still lacks a synergy between various abilities, where T18 4pc really made each finisher feel valuable and important.

Note; I'm a massive fan of Restless Blades type mechanics.

It looked longer when I was skimming :P

[dak1]

We need a wide variety of opinions from different types of players.

Tell that to Blizzard. They invited pretty much every single person who had completed Mythic Hellfire at a certain point (I think literally every single one), but the only PvPers who have gotten invites are streamers. There may have been a few who have gotten invites that just don't spend much/any time on the forums, but every single Rogue PvPer who regularly writes long, thoughtful posts has not yet gotten an invite.

You'd think since the overall class design has significantly greater impact on PvP than PvE (you know they're going to tune the damage numbers for PvE regardless of how the spec functions), they'd seek out a bit more input earlier in the design process. But they still seem to be stuck in the raid or die mentality that has really undermined the last several expansions.

[Lorentz]

Oh it's not THAT long!

I'm going to have to reroll a new Sub char since I still can't load any char parked at the Shrine and write up some more detailed feedback after more time on a target dummy.

Initial thoughts are;

• SD isn't really a "DPS" cooldown; the DPS comes from the SoD buff; which doesn't stack. This limits the point of using Shadow Dance again within the ~20 second window that SoD is up until you need to refresh.
• SoD isn't a pleasant addition to the rotation; Shadowstrike still feels meaningless most of the time.
• "Stealth" (Vanish / Dance / Stealth) only has value in PvE because it allows you to refresh SoD, which I'm not sure I find particularly enjoyable.

I think it's an improvement over the initial Sub build they put out, but there's a whole lot that doesn't flow intuitively.

It feels so very wrong to say this, but Arms actually is a more satisfying spec to play at the moment. Each ability 'feels' rewarding to press, and various abilities all tie in closely with one another, Sub still lacks a synergy between various abilities, where T18 4pc really made each finisher feel valuable and important.

Note; I'm a massive fan of Restless Blades type mechanics.

But ShD is a DPS cooldown. It allows rogue to use Shadowstrike which will hit harder than Backstab/Gloomblade for sure. When big important add comes we will use several stacks in a row to kill it. This is a on-demand burst versus buff uptime trade-off.

[maddnesskhaz]

But ShD is a DPS cooldown. It allows rogue to use Shadowstrike which will hit harder than Backstab/Gloomblade for sure. When big important add comes we will use several stacks in a row to kill it. This is a on-demand burst versus buff uptime trade-off.

Except I'm skeptical as to whether they'll let Shadowstrike hit 'that' hard given they're notably trying to tune down Sub as a burst spec, the lack of ability to stack Symbols of Death also limits how much this is going to be worthwhile.