Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Deleted]

snip

Agree with most of the stuff. Particularly:
Goremaw's Bite: make it fun.
ShadowBlades: 3min rechargeable spoom burst dmg. Either lower to 1min and low duration or something else.
death from above: faster yes.
Shadow Nova: yes not break stealth.

Disagree:
Talents...were always an illusion of choice. There are those mandatory talents to choose and others that are more or elss of a choice. This is related to the fact that most spells are broken down/baked into said talents.
Energy Regen: have seen some videos and i think it is more of "Combo Point Regen" in Legion rather than Energy Regen. Plus if damage output is very good it justifies for low energy regen. Otherwise, if damage output is low we should have higher energy regen to compensate for the low dmg output.

Can't think of anything else to add to the post of yours mate.
Perhaps nightblade still being dispelable?

edit:
Oh..I also want to add this. These kinds of changes seem already "small touches". We won't be seeing SoD removed anytime soon I guess.

[elfporn]

Agree with most of the stuff. Particularly:
Goremaw's Bite: make it fun.
ShadowBlades: 3min rechargeable spoom burst dmg. Either lower to 1min and low duration or something else.
death from above: faster yes.
Shadow Nova: yes not break stealth.

Disagree:
Talents...were always an illusion of choice. There are those mandatory talents to choose and others that are more or elss of a choice. This is related to the fact that most spells are broken down/baked into said talents.
Energy Regen: have seen some videos and i think it is more of "Combo Point Regen" in Legion rather than Energy Regen. Plus if damage output is very good it justifies for low energy regen. Otherwise, if damage output is low we should have higher energy regen to compensate for the low dmg output.

Can't think of anything else to add to the post of yours mate.
Perhaps nightblade still being dispelable?

edit:
Oh..I also want to add this. These kinds of changes seem already "small touches". We won't be seeing SoD removed anytime soon I guess.

Yea the energy thing is probably a tuning issue, it's still a concern people seem to express though.

I added nightblade's dispellableness and a few other things.

It really is small stuff, but it all contributes to a bd experience

[Kalador]

I was neutral towards SoD but I'm not a big fan of the new one.

It's just going to be a pure maintenance buff with no decison making witch is super boring. if they want to change the duration i would have made it shorter not longer...

The revision of the lvl 30 talent... lol what a big revision...

I'm normaly pretty optimistic but i think we won't see many change going foward witch worries me a bit.

I don't think they need to redo the spec but some change are needed for the spec to be good mechanically. Also, we will more than likely end up with a cookie cutter build.

[Smaxy]

Can sign on elfporn's post. I would like a complete talent rehaul to be honest, though maybe emphasize talents as lacking in meaningful choice/not enough changes to gameplay. If you'd like. Besides lvl 30 row and a few other select ones (Anticipation vs Deeper Strategem, for example) it is very lacking.

I can post on officials so I'll be there, too.

[Geckoo]

Energy Regen: have seen some videos and i think it is more of "Combo Point Regen" in Legion rather than Energy Regen. Plus if damage output is very good it justifies for low energy regen. Otherwise, if damage output is low we should have higher energy regen to compensate for the low dmg output.

I do agree that their focus seems to be combo point gains, but the problem is how does that contribute to how fun the spec is to play. Sure, there needs to be a balance between how many resources we generate and how much damage we deal, but is also important to consider if the way we have to gain those resources is more or less fun.

Usually, at least for me, is more fun to have an active gameplay, have the player pressing buttons instead of playing the waiting game with the energy bar or the passive combo point gains. The moment they changed passive shadow dance any idea they had on how resource management would work for subtley became obsolete and they haven't done a single thing to fix it nor have they said anything to defend or explain that model.

[elfporn]

[SUBTLETY] Feedback List

Grievances and Major Issues:
************************

Shadow Blades
-Weak ability for long cooldown (3min)
-No SnD means it is much weaker than in the past
-Works on auto attacks only

Goremaw's Bite
-Unoriginal, un-fun, boring ability
-1 minute cooldown for damage and 8 second slow is lackluster in the extreme

Shadow Nova
-Uncontrollable aoe during pvp situations means breaking CC (sap, blind, etc)

Akaari's Soul
-Uncontrollable damage during pvp situations means breaking CC, or telegraphing ability use

AoE options
-aoe options are limited, uninspired, and un-fun

Talents
-talent choices are leaning towards the illusion of choice
-talents will be "set it and forget it" again

Concerns and QoL issues:
***********************

Energy regeneration
-Worry is that no energy-over-time ability will lead to very slow downtimes between shadow dance/vanish
-No relentless strikes

Backstab
-Why is this ability the only one in the game with a positional requirement?
-Despite removing the "hard requirement" from backstab, it still forces players into a positioning requirement

Symbols of Death
-Why is this on the GCD?
-"Punishing" ability to maintain
-Un-fun and un-innovative ability overall

Nightblade
-Duration is too low

Death from Above
-loss of control
-animation/ability speed is too slow

Alacrity
-Stack time too high (admittedly, it's highrisk/reward)

Solutions
********************

Backstab
-Replace this with gloomblade
-OR remove the soft-requirement

Nightblade
-Increase duration to match rupture
-OR make backstab/gloomblade increase duration by 1sec(or X sec)
-Make nightblade undispellable

Death from Above
-Speed up animation
-Shadow Clone the animation
-Have the aoe whirl scale off of mastery(uncertain if it does so - can someone confirm?)

Shadow Nova
-Make it not break CC

Akaari's Soul
-Make it not break CC

AoE options
-Provide a talent row with aoe options
-Add an artifact trait to modify shadow nova
-Add a talent to tie shadow nova ot shadowstrike, in competition with strong single target talents
-Add a talent to provide burst cleave in competition with strong ST talents(not necessarily shadow nova)
-Add a talent that is an aoe finisher, again in competition with ST talents
-Make Shadow Nova scale with mastery
-Add in the relentless strikes effect (finishers return energy) for Shuriken Storm use

Shadow Blades
-Remove the CP gen, make ALL attacks deal shadow damage
-Tie it to stealth, similar to Master of Subtlety
-Make the CP gen stronger(add 1), add relentless strikes effect(energy return on finisher)

Energy Regeneration
-Increase energy gained from haste
-Add energy regen to SoD
-Add energy regen to Nightblade

Goremaw's Bite
-Complete redesign

Symbols of Death
-Swap with Shadow Blades, add CP generation from Shadow Blades(makeSoD a 3min cd with dmg+cp gen)
-Pull it off the GCD
-Add passive energy regen
-Add an additional effect such as chance for next eviscerate(or DFA) to inflict shadow damage instead of physical

Alacrity
-Reduce stack time

#############
Talents
#############
-Talents are lackluster, with choices that aren't fun, and point towards a "set it and forget it" loadout, similar to WoD talents

-The level 75 talent row is rediculously boring and uninspired, they are more for solo play and pvp, however, better talents can be had in that row, for example: Make the level 75 row into a set of aoe talents, modifying shadow nova

Solution:

-Swap Alacrity with Relentless Strikes, this would make the level 90 row into a resource focused choice, and put Alacrity in a place to compete on more equal footing.

-Make the level 75 talent row into an AoE talent row; possibly move DFA here

{Talent Solutions per Smaxy}

-Master of Shadows to talent, WoD Relentless Strikes baseline. If you want don't want to pool for SD, you can talent into it. Smooths out AoE phase with Shuriken Storm usage.
-Master of Subtlety baseline. Fits the spec.
-remove Weaponsmaster, Vigor, Alacrity, and Relentless Strikes (Legion) from talents. Make Enveloping Shadows baseline. In addition to possibly altering lvl 75 row (which I could support, but not as important IMO) we get five new talents (assuming Master of Shadows as a talent took spot of Master of Subtlety).

Related to AoE options in talents: I believe we should have AoE options, yes, but not three different AoE options in a row... Absolutely not. That's not really giving much choice, just the illusion of choice- unless the talents drastically change how we deal AoE damage. I'd like one or two AoE talents (if two, on different rows) and have them on the same row as Single Target talents, so that there is a trade-off. You sacrifice ST dps to increase AoE damage. No to AoE row.

Overall:
********************

The spec is headed in a decent enough direction, small tweaks and redesigns are needed to put it back on the straight and narrow.

- - - Updated - - -

The list is unfinished, please feel free to quote/copy it and add in.

Don't go overboard, work with what we have, ill be adding stuff myself when i get more time

Updated. Feel free to quote and add-in thoughts/changes.

[Smaxy]

Concerning elfporn: Not on board at all with energy regen on Nightblade, were just copy pasting Assn concepts... I'd like to increase base energy regen, at least slightly, maybe moderately. Not too much though. Sub isn't a spammy spec. I do agree, again, with revamping Artifact Active, Shadow Nova, and Akkari's Soul. The two traits mentioned just don't fit current design of Shadow Dance. Shadow Nova especially is problematic, cancel aura macros are not something we should be wanting in our spec..

To be honest, I don't see the point of having the Legion version of Relentless Strikes. You cap/waste energy if you don't have Vigor which is terrible design. I think Alacrity is a god awful talent, in flavor as well as gameplay. Here is what I'd prefer, conerning talents:

-Master of Shadows to talent, WoD Relentless Strikes baseline. If you want don't want to pool for SD, you can talent into it. Smooths out AoE phase with Shuriken Storm usage.
-Master of Subtlety baseline. Fits the spec.
-remove Weaponsmaster, Vigor, Alacrity, and Relentless Strikes (Legion) from talents. Make Enveloping Shadows baseline. In addition to possibly altering lvl 75 row (which I could support, but not as important IMO) we get five new talents (assuming Master of Shadows as a talent took spot of Master of Subtlety).

Related to AoE options in talents: I believe we should have AoE options, yes, but not three different AoE options in a row... Absolutely not. That's not really giving much choice, just the illusion of choice- unless the talents drastically change how we deal AoE damage. I'd like one or two AoE talents (if two, on different rows) and have them on the same row as Single Target talents, so that there is a trade-off. You sacrifice ST dps to increase AoE damage. No to AoE row.

The last thing to mention regarding talents is Gloomblade and the relation with Backstab. I'm still not decided how to go about this. Open to suggestions. I like flavor of Backstab, but understand negative gameplay ramifications. I'd also rather have Gloomblade do something more interesting: Rough talent idea- short duration (~5-7 sec), high Shadow Damage stealth only DoT. A talent which alters Gameplay, how cool.

[mindghosts]

Im personally happy about moving away from snd's white dmg and more towards active dmg. Heres some of My thoughts.

SoD becomes find weakness again. if target is under effect of nightblade? (I forget its name) your next shadowstrike applies find weakness. It suits fantasy better than flat dmg buff and most of sub spec is now made up of lots of passive incr dmg already. Still requires some thought and set up.

Shadowstrike teleport brought in line with a few suggestions. Teleport only works from stealth and not in shadow dance. Makes us more empowered When in stealth. Or... Have it work only in shadow dances. Or... Shadow dance gets reworked to a proper cd and not a charge system. Anything between 30-60 cd.

Perhaps shadow blades can empower active abilities instead?

More abilities in stealth to get us the stealth bar back. Id Love to see garrote make a return if melee mobility is brought in line. Old premed button back. And i liked shoes idea of stealth detection

If blizz wont make our slow undispellable.. Perhaps that talent that enhances the slow (entangled shadow?) could do that as well as offer the extra slow. hoppfully more talents gets reworked.

Energy regen must be reworked a bit ofc now with opportunity for longer dances. Energy return on finishers sound good to me. Id also like to see all three specs get disarm back. That way we can also help peel and support and not just mongo people.

[Smaxy]

Honestly, what id love even more is the PvP talent Phantom Assassin moved to general talents (and placed on rows increasing throughput, maybe w/ MfD and DfA- cool trade-offs there and different skill caps) and a talent like Vigor increasing max energy moved to PvP talents for PvPers who want to opt into that. Note that this still means PvP players can get Phantom Assassin, also means that PvE players can too.


Actually I really like PvP talent Phantom Assassin on the lvl100 row with DfA and MfD, now that I think about it.

[elfporn]

Snip

The Solutions section is just a list of ideas for each problem so far.

And you're right about relentless strikes(live) clashing with MoS and relentless strikes(legion) - i like the live version much bettern due to the long-term energy returns instead of "upon entering stealth"; Either way, energy regen, and ideas for it, are all over the place

As for Alacrity, i don't think they will budge much on this one, so i put up possible solutions for making it more user friendly.

I'll add in your talents ideas to the list

[Mafic]

Honestly, what id love even more is the PvP talent Phantom Assassin moved to general talents (and placed on rows increasing throughput, maybe w/ MfD and DfA- cool trade-offs there and different skill caps) and a talent like Vigor increasing max energy moved to PvP talents for PvPers who want to opt into that. Note that this still means PvP players can get Phantom Assassin, also means that PvE players can too.


Actually I really like PvP talent Phantom Assassin on the lvl100 row with DfA and MfD, now that I think about it.

Cold Blood and Tricks of the Trade I think should be PVE talents as well because I think they both these current PVP talents offer Sub and Outlaw unique flavor for PVE.

[elfporn]

Updated my list with Smaxy's input

I've got most of that covered mindghost

Keep collating feedback

[Willoughby]

I don't think the SoD duration increase changes much. Makes it easier to keep up, sure, but it's always been a boring maintenance buff. If anything, the change mostly just reinforces their intent for it to be more like SnD (or more appropriately, Enrage) than a new Find Weakness.

Also, we will more than likely end up with a cookie cutter build.

That's what happens when talent tiers don't really provide situational choices but different flavors of single target throughput.

[Deleted]

snip!

let me jump on board of your "revamp-some-of-the-talents-train" for a moment:

In addition, what is "Strike From The Shadows" doing there? No one will ever pick it up. Ever. It has too much of a PvPT taste than of a PvET taste. Plus no one is using that for PvP, unless of course I am willing to troll a massive amount of people. Trolling happens once in a while. Like once a month or so. Maybe more often.

Moreover, do we really need "Hardiness" PvPT? It is for tanks. We are rogues. We are like chickens. Deadly, Energetic, thousand-yard death stare (Shell Shock), and, of course, tasty. Preformated talents for everyone including us rogues. That is why we have it.

Why Adapation PvPT? 1 full KS and it triggers. Good Game. Relentless is good for healer in RBGS. Why not replace adaptaion with "your CC's do not incur DR for 3 successive casts, after that target becomes imune for 15 secs?

Why 10 yards on honor among thieves? Is this a PvET where everyone is on top of each other and at the feet of a boss? Even so in PvE this doesn't happen so much.

Dagger in the Dark, really? Well I guess it is another talent for that 1 time of the month when we feel like trolling. Here take my huge piñata and die. Why a piñata you wonder? Well..have you ever tried hitting one? It is impossible!!! you run around in circles hitting nothing, but once you hit the stupid thing it opens up and its sugary entrails come out.

on and on and on.
But I seriously doubt they will change these, they are making small changes as it seems.

[Smaxy]

Cold Blood and Tricks of the Trade I think should be PVE talents as well because I think they both these current PVP talents offer Sub and Outlaw unique flavor for PVE.

You mean general talents? PvPers get to use general talents as well, no such thing as PvE talents. I'd like Tricks WoD functionality back baseline. No Tricksbot IMO.

And yeah, I really despise Alacrity. It's boring, tedious, and extra boring.


As Blizzard seems like they're going to keep SoD as a maintenance buff, judging by the changes this build, I'm going to focus more on official forums in relation to artifact traits and talents. I guess I'll have to live with that, it's not the end of the world I guess.

Going to get up a post by Saturday, don't have time to get up a solid post til then.

[elfporn]

snip

Do up a grievances->solutions list for the pvp talents, ill stick it on my feedback list

The lvl 75 talent tier is junk, and i have that in my list already.

I want to bring all the feedback together in one spot(list) and shove it down their throats

[Skayaq]

Am I the only one who is a little disheartened by the fact that even though they reworked the spec, most of the feedback is largely the same as it have been the last two expacs(pos. req. on backstab, boring/bad talents)

[maddnesskhaz]

Am I the only one who is a little disheartened by the fact that even though they reworked the spec, most of the feedback is largely the same as it have been the last two expacs(pos. req. on backstab, boring/bad talents)

Amusingly, we've provided almost the exact same feedback for 5(?) alpha builds now and there's been 0 acknowledgement of a single thing from those lists - and those lists are very consistent between posters.

[Zoulis]

To be honest, I'd like to see alacrity gone. Makes absolutely no sense for Subtlety.

Also Artifact Traits are still the same as they were when the specc had Dance as a passive. How can they not see that it isn't working? Every single class has some trait that somehow changes their main CD. I swear the only thing we have is the damn AoE talent that makes no sense.
Give us artifact traits tied to Shadow Dance, or to actually being in stealth. Something that empowers us during the dance, and not just damage %, sth interesting, atleast one of the "secondary big ones".


Get rid of Goremaw's Bite, it's so bad that keeping it the way it is and giving it a CP cost actually makes it more fun.
But just rework it and give us a stealth finisher that deals dmg and gives us % of dmg out of stealth or sth, and then, oh look at this you can make SoD a stealth finisher that gives us extra % dmg in stealth. Ofc higher % in stealth etc.That way you can choose between them depending on how many Dances you want in a row etc.
But at this point anything different than goremaw's will make me happy, I won't be too picky.

[Smaxy]

Amusingly, we've provided almost the exact same feedback for 5(?) alpha builds now and there's been 0 acknowledgement of a single thing from those lists - and those lists are very consistent between posters.

Yep, if anything my suggestions to make SoD more bursty and less maintenance driven made a negative effect... SoD is up at 35 energy for 35 seconds now. Oh well.

Good post by the way, Madness.