[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[Supliftz]

I have no idea how you can say a healer with such low mobility, and heavy personal requirements has a lower skill floor than other classes.

[Unir]

BoV does seem to have a great deal of potential, in raids as well as dungeons. I'm not really sure why people focus on BoV as a dungeon tool and not a raiding tool. Besides the obvious benefit of being able to line your your high throughput abilities with the BoV uptime, it also provides great synergy with Bestow Faith - both because it lets you 'steal' a GCD from the non-BoV time into BoV time, and because it essentially makes it into a smart heal (with Prism, LoD and BoV, a lot of your healing essentially becomes smart healing).

BoV also has a non-intuitive secondary effect: it makes Martyr (and to a lesser extent, JoL) usable. One of the major downsides to Martyr is of course that it doesn't transfer over beacon - but obviously, with BoV, you have clear periods of time where Martyr becomes very competitive in terms of HpS (and far superior in terms of HpM) as well as being instant and providing mobility. Using Martyr also lets you save HS procs for BoV time, meaning you get pretty much all of the benefit of using HL/FoL over Martyr while remaining very mobile. Bestow Faith on yourself as you Martyr twice going into BoV also helps a lot on the overhealing issue of BF.

I cannot agree with this. BoV does not make LotM usable. The main drawback to LotM is not that it doesn't transfer through beacon (though that is a drawback of course). The main drawback to LotM is the damage that it returns. That is still true when using BoV as opposed to any other beacon.

In terms of HPS and HPM, I consider it to do exactly half of the healing listed because half of that comes back to someone as damage. That depresses its HPS and HPM values considerably.

It also scales negatively with gear, which strikes me as terrible. The more gear I get and the larger my heals become, or the more likely they become to crit, the more dangerous LotM gets. That's um, bad.

I am curious about BoV, though. I have been focusing on using BoLightbringer mainly, but are good results coming from BoV in raids? Just thinking through it, the only downsides I can see would be:

a) mana cost using it on CD (iirc it is between FoL and HL but closer to FoL in mana cost),
b) loss of the global to cast it every 15 seconds, and
c) lack of indirect tank support when the BoV non-active window was present.

I have not mathed anything out, but I would think the raw BoV HPS is higher just from the higher beacon uptime.

[Deleted]

I am curious about BoV, though. I have been focusing on using BoLightbringer mainly, but are good results coming from BoV in raids? Just thinking through it, the only downsides I can see would be:

a) mana cost using it on CD (iirc it is between FoL and HL but closer to FoL in mana cost),
b) loss of the global to cast it every 15 seconds, and
c) lack of indirect tank support when the BoV non-active window was present.

I have not mathed anything out, but I would think the raw BoV HPS is higher just from the higher beacon uptime.

No, BoV is a dungeon talent. There is limited/no usage in raids. Having 1 guy who takes most of the damage beaconed 100% of the time for free+ mastery effect+30% LoD is miles better than having 4 guys(3 at complete random) beaconed 43% of the time(global cooldown) + mana cost of 12% total mana per minute(do you realize that if the fight lasts 5 minutes you have 60% more total mana with Lightbringer?).

I doubt anyone can link a log with the opposite.

[Jooji]

How does beacon of faith work? Does the 20% penalty reduce both beacons to (40-20) or reduce both beacons to 40*.80?

I'm kinda shocked to see so many people putting down the skill required to play holy paladin, saying "we have no decisions to make." I think LotM creates many interesting decisions. You have a single target instant(MOBILITY) heal that is our best hp/s and hp/m heal if you don't factor in the health lost. There's many situations where that health lost doesn't matter and the massive, instant heal is life-saving. The only stronger heal in our kit is an infused FoL.

[Deleted]

So you want to deny that holy paladin has a ridiculously low skill cap (barely above the skill floor)? Play holy paladin, resto druid and holy priest if you want to focus solely on the boss because everyone can master those without even trying.

Even holy priests and resto druids are a lot harder to play than paladin because they have to keep an eye on their mana. The hardest part about paladin is choosing the right talents, its really sad.

I have no idea how you can say a healer with such low mobility, and heavy personal requirements has a lower skill floor than other classes.

Yea man picking lightbringer, standing at ranged and then hitting everything when it comes off cd is so hard.

[Leefa]

If only we had a viable option that we could use whenever we wanted, like Chain Heal, Prayer of Healing, Renew, Rejuv, Vivify....but nope we gotta have that fucked up spell that nobody wants to use cause its horrible. Theres only one thing I have to say about Martyr: Kill it with fire.

Theres nothing challenging about holy paladins, we dont have to watch our mana and we have no choices to make like every other god damn healer do. It's boring as fuck to spam Holy Light and hit things when they come off cooldown, its too similar to a dps rotation. Healing should be about making choices based on the situation, not braindead hitting things on cooldown.

[Deleted]

I'm kinda shocked to see so many people putting down the skill required to play holy paladin, saying "we have no decisions to make." I think LotM creates many interesting decisions. You have a single target instant(MOBILITY) heal that is our best hp/s and hp/m heal if you don't factor in the health lost. There's many situations where that health lost doesn't matter and the massive, instant heal is life-saving. The only stronger heal in our kit is an infused FoL.

That is just straight up wrong, word of advice: dont give other people advice when you dont know how the class even works in the first place.

How does beacon of faith work? Does the 20% penalty reduce both beacons to (40-20) or reduce both beacons to 40*.80?

it is 40*.8

[Jooji]

That is just straight up wrong, word of advice: dont give other people advice when you dont know how the class even works in the first place.


it is 40*.8

What's wrong about it? Per mana LotM is more efficient than FoL, HL, and even shock. And it provides more hp/s as well. The only drawback is the health loss. That health loss is neglible in many situations. And if we're talking a raid situation there's plenty of aoe heals constantly going out that would quickly top us off. I'm not saying we should be spamming LotM when there's heavy raid dmg going out, but if you have someone about to die and you casting LotM isn't going to get you killed, it can be your best heal.

[Michelis]

What's wrong about it? Per mana LotM is more efficient than FoL, HL, and even shock. And it provides more hp/s as well. The only drawback is the health loss. That health loss is neglible in many situations. And if we're talking a raid situation there's plenty of aoe heals constantly going out that would quickly top us off. I'm not saying we should be spamming LotM when there's heavy raid dmg going out, but if you have someone about to die and you casting LotM isn't going to get you killed, it can be your best heal.

LotM doesn't work with beacon of light/ faith or virtue, that is the reason people hate it so much.

[Jooji]

LotM doesn't work with beacon of light/ faith or virtue, that is the reason people hate it so much.

Even without beacon interaction it's still more mana efficient. Fol does about 20% more healing if beacon doesn't overheal. I think the best thing about martyr is the mobility it provides. Go play a holy priest and you'll appreciate martyr lol

[Genzen Han]

So I have a question about what makes Paladin strong single-target healers.

We always say Paladins are good for spot heals and tank heals etc, and I'm just wondering what it is that makes them so much better at ST healing than other classes. Every class pretty much has the core 'Holy Light/Flash of Light' spell-set, with one being slow and cheap and the other being fast and expensive. Are the Paladin versions just better in some way? We have Holy Shock and Bestow Faith with short CDS, but most classes have a short CD spell that heals for more, or have a HoT or two that they can have rolling to augment their 'Holy Light/Flash of Light' spam. Again, are the Paladins' versions just better? Is it just that fact that, when a Paladin does a single-target heal, it's also transferring 40% across to the Beacon target, which effectively makes their 'Holy Light/Flash of Light' spam 140% of the others'?

Just wanting to understand what my strengths will be and why, so I can make more informed triage decisions.

Anyone have any insights that could help here?

[Deleted]

What's wrong about it? Per mana LotM is more efficient than FoL, HL, and even shock. And it provides more hp/s as well. The only drawback is the health loss. That health loss is neglible in many situations. And if we're talking a raid situation there's plenty of aoe heals constantly going out that would quickly top us off. I'm not saying we should be spamming LotM when there's heavy raid dmg going out, but if you have someone about to die and you casting LotM isn't going to get you killed, it can be your best heal.

In PvE he only time LoTM is your best heal is exactly when you prevent someone's death. Any other team its a bad ability because it has no beacon interaction, no power of the silver hand interaction and it does self damage. Saving someone's life is something that happens relatively rarely in PvE(and remember you also have Lay on Hands). The mobility it provides is irrelevant unless you absolutely need to move.

Even without beacon interaction it's still more mana efficient. Fol does about 20% more healing if beacon doesn't overheal. I think the best thing about martyr is the mobility it provides. Go play a holy priest and you'll appreciate martyr lol

You cannot delete the self damage it causes just to the math looks nicer..

After the artifact LoTM does 287.5% spellpower in healing.
After the artifact FoL does 654.5% spellpower in healing, and this is without counting Infusion of Light, Power of the Silver Hand, the Light Saves or Tyr's Deliverance.

Light of the Martyr is insanely awful.

Anyone have any insights that could help here?

Long story made short. Once upon a time Paladins only had single target heals. Because of this those single target heals were really good/efficient and most people agreed that paladins were really strong with single target healing back then. As the years passed a lot changed but not people opinion - that never changes.

[Leefa]

Even without beacon interaction it's still more mana efficient.

No it isn't, Martyr is worse than every other spell available to you when it comes to healing per mana spent.

[Jooji]

Reducing LotM's heal by 50% on paper is incredible over-simplification of the ability. You clearly don't like the ability conceptually. I'm not even going to bother responding to your points. If you can't see how awesome martyr can situationally be, then that's your own problem. I never said it's a great heal in every situation, but it definitely has some fantastic uses.

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No it isn't, Martyr is worse than every other spell available to you when it comes to healing per mana spent.

Until you factor in health spent, it has incredible efficiency and power. As I've already said, sometimes that health spent is negligable. And sometimes that health spent can cause problems. It's a situational heal that involves making the decision "can I afford x health to heal my ally for 2x health?"

[Deleted]

Anyone have any insights that could help here?

Check some cata T11/12 gameplay. Divine Light was a good mana dump and WoG (with basically guaranteed crit below 35% talent) a really strong single target finisher.

But these glory times are over. We can't have anything that could punish bad players because they waste mana/CDs at the wrong time.
It's pretty clear that whoever designs holy paladin nowadays isn't actually playing it. Additional evidence: our "legendaries" - lol

[Deleted]

Reducing LotM's heal by 50% on paper is incredible over-simplification of the ability. You clearly don't like the ability conceptually. I'm not even going to bother responding to your points. If you can't see how awesome martyr can situationally be, then that's your own problem. I never said it's a great heal in every situation, but it definitely has some fantastic uses.

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Until you factor in health spent, it has incredible efficiency and power. As I've already said, sometimes that health spent is negligable. And sometimes that health spent can cause problems. It's a situational heal that involves making the decision "can I afford x health to heal my ally for 2x health?"

Not sure if you're serious. I play the game at a much higher level than you, believe me I understand the ability well enough. Of course you are avoiding points you cannot fight against, that's natural.

I'm not going to bother emphasizing that you are solo responsible for healing yourself in mythic/+ dungeons, so moving directly to raids. During the testing last Friday, the general overhealing for us was somewhere around 15-20% and most healers ran on fumes. This is very low. This is likely to get even lower on mythic progression. By comparison the overhealing on Archimonde Mythic during farm was somewhere around 50%.

Like Celestalon you have the misguided assumption that there is an hp cushion lying around, the damage that you take from LoTM is going to get healed by "some" hot you have on yourself. What happens actually during progression/challenging encounters is that the assumed hot is healing damage the encounter is already putting in you, and as such the damage you take can be directly deduced.

Yes sure, if there is no damage going on and you have a hot on you, you shouldn't deduce martyr like I do. But if you are in this situation, you're better of doing damage anyway. The only viable question is " Will X die without you healing him with LoTM?".

[Spazzix]

LotM is 6% less HPM than Holy Light...
LotM is 41% less HPS than FoL...
BEFORE YOU EVEN FACTOR IN BEACON
As soon as you factor in beacon, HL and and FoL both crush LotM in both HPM and HPS.

Further, I'm not sure if this is intended, I swear I read that LotM is supposed to damage based on effective healing, but I'm currently seeing the damage based on the full heal amount. That's right, you get to double dip on penalties. So now, in a low damage movement period, it's not worth casting because of the high likelihood of significant overheal. (Keep in mind that if you heal a person missing 100k hp—but with a rejuv/renew/riptide/wild growth/etc. on them— with an exact 100k LotM, you've still effectively spent mana to do negative healing.) And, in a high damage movement period, if people are taking enough damage to be at risk of dying (and therefor worth casting this horrible spell for) shouldn't you be concerned about your health as well? Whatever is blowing up your raid is probably blowing up you too— if Johnny is about to die, you're also about to die.
Now, I admit the above does oversimplify things, there are plenty of times when you'll have to take a couple of steps and if HS is down, you can net yourself 250 healing that would have otherwise been dead time. That seems like the most realistic scenario for LotM in my eyes, and that's pretty sad. It's a mindless, "I have nothing else I can cast" spell that you'd probably only want to use in situations where you don't have much incoming damage (so the health cost doesn't become a danger), but now ask yourself, "if there's not much incoming damage, why am I so desperate to heal while moving? shouldn't I just wait until I can HL?"

...It's a situational heal that involves making the decision "can I afford x health to heal my ally for 2x health?"

It's not a question of "can I" it's a question of "do I absolutely need to" and >99% of the time, the answer is no.
If you need to save someone and FoL isn't fast enough, use LoH.
If people are frequently in those life-or-death situations—
(again, emphasizing that only the situations in which the ~1.2-1.3s cast of FoL is too long and HS isn't up AND it's magic damage so you can't BoP [admittedly not too hard to meet this one] AND AND AND you don't have infusion up in which case the death needs to be in ~0.8 s so you can't HL)—then LotM is useful you need to reassess your healing comp. Keep in mind, all of that assumes you are solely responsible for this person's life. If it's not a Holy Priest drooling over the idea of HW: Serenity right there, it could be a life cocoon, swiftmend, or PW:S. If you're using LotM, it's a guess. LotM works in such a limited window, that not even voicechat is adequate for the reaction time needed.



(healing in %sp, mana in %base, and casts at 0 haste)
LotM
500 healing - 250 damage = 250 effective healing
7.5 mana

250/7.5 = 33.3 HPM

250 per GCD
250/1.5 = 166.7 HPS

Holy Light
425 healing
12 mana
425/12 = 35.4 HPM

425 per 2.5 cast
425/2.5 = 170 HPS

With Beacon:
35.4 * 1.4 = 49.6 HPM
170 * 1.4 = 238 HPS

Flash of Light
425 healing
16 mana
425/12 = 26.6 HPM

425 per 1.5 cast
425/1.5 = 283.3 HPS

With Beacon:
26.6 * 1.4 = 37.2 HPM
283.3 * 1.4 = 396.6 HPS

[Taeldorian]

I feel like they should have made fervent martyr lower the health cost of LoTM rather than the mana cost. Fervent martyr as it is, is a useless talent and should never be picked, but if they made it lower the health cost I feel like LoTM would be useful in more situations and the talent would actually be picked.

[Spazzix]

Seems like it still wouldn't be able to compete with Sanctified Wrath. Especially not while it requires HL/FoL on a beacon target.

Roll it into aura of sacrifice: Casting direct heals on targets inside your Aura of Sacrifice reduces the health cost of your next LotM by 35%, stacking.

[Unir]

No, BoV is a dungeon talent. There is limited/no usage in raids. Having 1 guy who takes most of the damage beaconed 100% of the time for free+ mastery effect+30% LoD is miles better than having 4 guys(3 at complete random) beaconed 43% of the time(global cooldown) + mana cost of 12% total mana per minute(do you realize that if the fight lasts 5 minutes you have 60% more total mana with Lightbringer?).

I doubt anyone can link a log with the opposite.

Thanks for confirming, that's what I was thinking. If there is a log to the contrary I'd love to see it. It's a shame it's so sub-optimal that it can't be made into an alternative raid healing style.

I'm surprised to see anyone defending LotM, but I'll just leave that alone.

As to this notion that a "superb paladin" is determined by holding and using at some optimal time things like HS, BF, the artifact main heal, or RoL - I just cannot agree with that. Assuming a steady incoming damage profile, those abilities make most sense used essentially on CD. The one caveat I would give is that you may want to hold RoL briefly if about to use AM with AoMercy - but other than that, I would think uptime is king and opportunity cost beats everything else. Certainly if I'm wrong, someone correct me.