[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[Simulacrum]

All I am saying is the statement that "FoL is more mana efficient than LotM" is an over simplification.

No it isn't.

I also assume that since you say we can't ignore the self damage from LotM that you also disagree with all the people who are using aura of sac?

Aura of sac doesn't cost you any mana.

Though it has an opportunity cost. But that's a different topic.

[Afrikanz]

Guys, how do you feel about items like Drape of shame from karazan (10% increased healing for crit heals passive on cloak) and Gnawed thumb ring (3 minute 5% healing cd)
I feel like the drape is very strong, like at 855 ilvl, its probably better than 865 ilvl ones. specially for us since we stack crit.

I got an 870 titanforged version of this cloak Tuesday night on my first run. I immediately replaced my existing 870 cloak w/ socket for this. Seems like after a few nights of use I've definitely noticed this playing a pretty big role as far as healing output. It's increased the value of Holy Shock even further as I'm now hitting 900k-1m HS crits, up from roughly 800k on average.

I feel like this is definitely a great pick-up, especially if you can get a titanforged/socketed version of it. Even without that, the equip makes it very good. It has pretty good itemization as well with Crit/Vers.

[Unir]

I also assume that since you say we can't ignore the self damage from LotM that you also disagree with all the people who are using aura of sac?

Seriously? You assume incorrectly, and wildly so. It seems you simply do not understand the issue. No wonder your observations about LotM make no sense. Aura of Sac does not do any additional damage to anyone, it only redirects some damage to you from other players. It contributes neither positive nor negative health to the raid. By using it you are only choosing to keep your health depressed at no cost to raid health in order to get the AM benefit.

LotM removes health from the raid as a whole, or, depending on how you want to view the sequence of events, cuts in half the value of every heal from LotM. By using it outside of its use case scenario, you are choosing to inflict unnecessary damage on the raid or to use a much smaller heal than you could.

They are not the same, not even close.

cuz it simportant if you're not healing LFR

This is snarky but accurate.

[Hawg]

Spamming LotM, not that it's recommended, can run you out of mana more quickly since there is no cast time associated with it.

You still have the global cd.

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No it isn't.

Yes it is... see this is productive debate isn't it?

Aura of sac doesn't cost you any mana.

Though it has an opportunity cost. But that's a different topic.

You are being disingenuous here, you are saying that the only way to accurately compare the hpm of Lotm is if you account for the damage it does to the caster. But when that damage comes mana free for blessing of Sac?

- - - Updated - - -

Seriously? You assume incorrectly, and wildly so. It seems you simply do not understand the issue. No wonder your observations about LotM make no sense. Aura of Sac does not do any additional damage to anyone, it only redirects some damage to you from other players. It contributes neither positive nor negative health to the raid. By using it you are only choosing to keep your health depressed at no cost to raid health in order to get the AM benefit.

I understand the issue. I just disagree.

I haven't sat down to try and calculate how much passive healing is in a typical 20 man raid, while in combat, is overheal (or leads to overheal because it "snipes" part of an actively cast heal), but to the extent the damage you do to yourself by casting lotm is healed by ambient healing that would otherwise be an overheal, that portion of your loss health is free and should not be counted against the "mana inefficiency" of Lotm. IMHO. In addition, in a given raid there is generally a lot of overheal anyway. Looking at my last log for all encounters (6/7 that night) I overhealed 25.61%. (Unfortunatley I didn't use Lotm once that entire night.)

So between passive heals, and reduction of overheals part (not sure if its a little or a lot, but it is certainly greater than zero) of the damage you do to yourself with Lotm is a "free resource". And therefore counting the loss of that health against Lotm when talking about mana efficiency is missing part of the story.

LotM removes health from the raid as a whole, or, depending on how you want to view the sequence of events, cuts in half the value of every heal from LotM. By using it outside of its use case scenario, you are choosing to inflict unnecessary damage on the raid or to use a much smaller heal than you could.

They are not the same, not even close.

As I explained above, I don't think its half.

This is snarky but accurate.

Its not accurate (I haven't stepped into LFR this expansion).

[Rorschachs]

cuz it simportant if you're not healing LFR

That's exaggerating the self damage by a lot, we are already tankier than everyone else.

[Hawg]

Ignoring infused flash of light here is how they compare with revised numbers for 7.1:

If you are healing your Beacon target:

LotM hpm = 66.67 (cut that in half 33.33 If you want to factor in the self damage)
FoL hpm = 50

(That assumes that you get the 40% extra heal from FoL when you heal your Beacon target, not sure if that is the case, if not it would make the hpm 35.7)

But if you are healing a non-Beacon target:

LotM is the same
FoL hpm drops down to 35hpm.

So if you start excluding at least some of the self damage, the mana efficeny of LotM Is better than a non infused FoL. Even if you don't exclude any of the self damage, it is not far off (a nice trade for mobility and insta cast?).

One thing I forgot in my calculations, if you have gotten far enough in your artifact talents so that you are now spending shit tons for crappy talents you may have Justice through Sacrifice which would increase LotM healing by 15%. I assume that means it also increases the self-damage you do by 7.5% but have been unable to find an answer to that.

If it does also increase the self damage then the hpm for Lotm (including self damage) would be 38.3 hpm (76.7 hpm if you ignore self damage). That would make it more efficient than a non-infused FoL on a non-beaconed target.

[Dreamguard]

The damage from Light of the Martyr is always 50% before damage reductions, so Justice through Sacrifice would increase both at the same rate.

(n * 1.15)/2 = (n/2) * 1.15

[Hawg]

The damage from Light of the Martyr is always 50% before damage reductions, so Justice through Sacrifice would increase both at the same rate.

(n * 1.15)/2 = (n/2) * 1.15

That's what I assumed, I just haven't been able to test it yet. You know how Blizzard is with writing the tool tips, they may have made that so it only increases the healing (not the damage) and they would probably write it the same way.

[Afrikanz]

You still have the global cd.

Yes, but if your cast time is longer than the global CD (with Holy Light for instance) then you will still be able to cast LotM more frequently.

[Nyel]

So, I am fairly new to this thread and just want to ask a question:

Using LotM is a thing now? Or still a cast I will most likely never use?

[Lestrang]

845 ilvl life relic with shock treatment or 850 ilvl life relic with 10% reduced cooldown on lay on hands, is the ilvl worth it?

[Nyel]

845 ilvl life relic with shock treatment or 850 ilvl life relic with 10% reduced cooldown on lay on hands, is the ilvl worth it?

I've got the same question.

Right now I managed to get 3 relics with Shock Treatment so that my Holy Shock crits heal for 148% and I would love to never change that but when is ILVL > effect especially when it's Shock treatment?

[MCC]

So, I am fairly new to this thread and just want to ask a question:

Using LotM is a thing now? Or still a cast I will most likely never use?

There's a time and place to use it. Don't listen to those who try and tell you it's completely useless, and also don't listen to those who tell you it's your go-to spell. The truth is somewhere in the middle as always.

[HPLathus]

Yea casting LoTM during wings sounds like a good idea *1 mil LoTM crit* YES NICE I SAVED HIM

oh shit i took 500k damage, and just got targeted by a boss mechanic. Oh crap the healers have to save me or i will instantly die.


LoTM efficiency is thrown out the door when things like this can happen. Stop trying to justify using it as a main spell.

[Genzen Han]

I've got the same question.

Right now I managed to get 3 relics with Shock Treatment so that my Holy Shock crits heal for 148% and I would love to never change that but when is ILVL > effect especially when it's Shock treatment?

I too would like to know about this. Does Ilvl trump traits, or is it better running a good trait with poorer Ilvl than running a higher level with a throwaway trait?

[Rorschachs]

So, I am fairly new to this thread and just want to ask a question:

Using LotM is a thing now? Or still a cast I will most likely never use?

I use it sometimes, feels better than trying to get more holy shocks with crusader's might or something clunky like that. You need to cast it only if you are completely safe and your health lost will be healed up by things that would otherwise overheal, like your own LoD or bestow faith for example.

[Lestrang]

in this thread: people talking about LoTM and nothing else, might as well change the thread name, no one discussing the new item from karazan, no one talking about if they changed from sanctified wrath after nerf, no one commenting about feels with LoD after divine purpose+second sunrise fix, no trait, nothing, only LoTM for the last 5 pages. whatever, this stopped being useful a while ago

[Nedralixx]

in this thread: people talking about LoTM and nothing else, might as well change the thread name, no one discussing the new item from karazan, no one talking about if they changed from sanctified wrath after nerf, no one commenting about feels with LoD after divine purpose+second sunrise fix, no trait, nothing, only LoTM for the last 5 pages. whatever, this stopped being useful a while ago

Why don't you initiate a discussion with your questions? This is a forum. If someone has to share anything he does. People are not supposed to take initiative and start writing guides.

[mob1lejunkie]

I'm at 869 but I literally have 0 Versatility. For some reason every upgrade I have been getting is Crit and Mastery. I use the spreadsheet in Discord to determine if the item is upgrade and the item often an upgrade due to more Int and Crit.

How much heal am I missing out on by not having any Versatility?

[Pawladeen]

Hello All!

I'm looking for a list for value of trinkets for healing. Anyone seen something like this?

Ty