Legion - Assassination Discussion

[Celfydd]

I spent a long time dummy testing this after it went live and was surprised to find my overall numbers pretty much exactly the same on live so not sure how it's a nerf.

Just from the numbers: the Instant Poison and Envenom changes are both +20% to those abilities, but those abilities contribute relatively little (around 12%) to overall assassination damage (source). Whereas Rupture being nerfed by a sixth has a proportionately greater effect since it does around 44% of overall damage (according to the same source). Of course, your damage distribution might be different if you're using different talents and artifact traits on beta from the simc model.

Not that live results matter anyway - looking forward to new sims.

Indeed, there may be interactions that haven't been considered.

[Sedativ]

Indeed, there may be interactions that haven't been considered.

I'm curious to see how those changes stack up with Artifact traits. You get a lot of traits that buff poison damage. Long term you'll want relics that reduce Vendetta CD but it will be interesting to see how others will interact.

[omeomorfismo]

Trying to remember when combat was ever a first choice spec before ... Ulduar? I remember people seemed to like it back then though I stuck with Sin at the time. They cranked it's ST up again in early MoP but heavily nerfed it back again when it caused the AOE to get too high. Otherwise combat was only the AOE spec which you switched to from your proper ST spec , whether Sin or Sub.

why an aoe spec mustnt be a "first choice" spec? whatever it means..
historically is the only rogue spec that is always viable

[Demeia]

For the love of God stop calling Assassination "Sin". It's pronounced "Mut".

Sorry, I'd rather live in Sin than with a Mut.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe, but it was Blizzard's clear design decision for rogues (and others) in WoD. They wanted to reward specs that required more effort and Sin is an example of how they punished simplified specs with poor damage. Have they indicated that philosophy has changed? I hadn't noticed it.

They haven't ever said anything super-clear on this point, have they? They are always contradicting themselves. At one point they thought complexity=more damage was good, then they said, no, probably not, then as you suggest they seemed to have changed their mind again. It's very possible that their feelings towards this are more like the stealth part: something they don't like that's been part of the game, and maybe they should get it out. Or maybe they really like the idea now.

I've always suspected something of the opposite: that with the pure classes they want one spec that's fairly forgiving to play. In practice, that spec will do more damage for a higher percentage of the playerbase. This is almost what you are saying, of course. The difference is that they might bring down a rotation that's too complex (and reduce the damage) if my interpretation is correct. So two specs roughly the same in damage and complexity and one easier.

[Gilor]

why an aoe spec mustnt be a "first choice" spec? whatever it means..
historically is the only rogue spec that is always viable

Umm well we're just playing different games I guess. Combat was always the go to spec for AOE but (with very short exceptions) was never competitive ST and therefore was not viable for serious raiding on fights that didn't require AOE. If you found it otherwise, more power to you but logs tell a different story for the rest of us.

[Sedativ]

Gross. You can tell when someone started playing this game by the use of "sin" to designate an Assassination rogue.

People are elitist about naming conventions of a spec.

[Willoughby]

Trying to remember when combat was ever a first choice spec before ... Ulduar? I remember people seemed to like it back then though I stuck with Sin at the time. They cranked it's ST up again in early MoP but heavily nerfed it back again when it caused the AOE to get too high. Otherwise combat was only the AOE spec which you switched to from your proper ST spec , whether Sin or Sub.

Combat was the top ST and AOE spec in T16 thanks to the CDR trinket and KSpree damage from the set bonus. Our other specs just didn't benefit to the degree Combat did so it pulled ahead.

[omeomorfismo]

Umm well we're just playing different games I guess. Combat was always the go to spec for AOE but (with very short exceptions) was never competitive ST and therefore was not viable for serious raiding on fights that didn't require AOE. If you found it otherwise, more power to you but logs tell a different story for the rest of us.

never said that combat was top single target after tbc, my question is why a spec that is used in basically half of encounters must be "less important" than single target specs.
however is "assa" not mut or sin

[Gilor]

I've always suspected something of the opposite: that with the pure classes they want one spec that's fairly forgiving to play. In practice, that spec will do more damage for a higher percentage of the playerbase. This is almost what you are saying, of course. The difference is that they might bring down a rotation that's too complex (and reduce the damage) if my interpretation is correct. So two specs roughly the same in damage and complexity and one easier.

I think that's exactly what they did with Sin in MoP and then continued in WoD, making the spec simpler and simpler so that the gap between a skilled player and an unskilled players was smaller (it was still there hence ranks.) However they then made a very obvious example of Sin in leaving it so far behind Sub damage in WoD as to make it unplayable for people who cared about their dps. The increase in having more to watch with the current version at least gives them a way to justify having it do competitive dps now and I'd hate to see that change.

Having said that Outlaw is really a very simple spec to play (made simpler by less RTB fishing now) and yet it's damage is through the roof. That either signifies a change of philosophy or, more likely in my consideration, is another temporary boost to "combat" which they'll retract when the ramifications become clear (seen it before but they want people to try their shiny new spec.) Only time will tell.

[Gilor]

Combat was the top ST and AOE spec in T16 thanks to the CDR trinket and KSpree damage from the set bonus. Our other specs just didn't benefit to the degree Combat did so it pulled ahead.

Oh yeah forgot about the CDR trinket shenanigans ... that was awesome, though I still seem to recall playing Sin for single target fights anyway.

Gross. You can tell when someone started playing this game by the use of "sin" to designate an Assassination rogue.

Oh yeah, and when was that?

[Xanatu]

Oh yeah forgot about the CDR trinket shenanigans ... that was awesome, though I still seem to recall playing Sin for single target fights anyway.



Oh yeah, and when was that?

Nah, assassination was dead that entire expac. Combat was best in SOO start to finish. Can check the logs to verify, combat dominated every single fight, ST and cleave/AOE. Blizz has definitely had our AOE spec be just the best all-around spec before. The precedent is there.

[Demeia]

Certainly after BC....duh.

I can't recall but as mutilate came with 2.0.1 and the spec has always been called Assassin, well, it seems like someone would have called in Sin in molten core. I don't remember if that was the case, however; it was a long time ago.

[Celfydd]

I think "sin" (shouldn't it, strictly, be 'sin?) as an abbreviation for assassin first started in Guild Wars: Factions, therefore 2006 or so. Although that was around the same time as Burning Crusade there wasn't much crossover between players of the two games at that time. TBH I don't really remember "mut" being used at that time either, people said "mutilate rogue".

I don't really see why people can't just write assassination. It's not like you're going to wear your fingers out, and if you find it takes up too much of your valuable typing time you can always macro it. It has the benefit of being easier to read and disambiguate, and people read things much more often than they write them.

[billyisinehre]

Gross. You can tell when someone started playing this game by the use of "sin" to designate an Assassination rogue.

I'm sorry but was Mutilate an ability pre BC? Nah friend. We called it sin back then.

[Roiids]

Frankly I want to play outlaw, but like every Xpack Blizz will hotfix damage a week or so in and EFF everyone up since they already were pouring AP into their Artifact of choice.

[ringthree]

Maybe, but it was Blizzard's clear design decision for rogues (and others) in WoD. They wanted to reward specs that required more effort and Sin is an example of how they punished simplified specs with poor damage. Have they indicated that philosophy has changed? I hadn't noticed it.

Dumb question: What is Sin?

Trying to remember when combat was ever a first choice spec before ... Ulduar? I remember people seemed to like it back then though I stuck with Sin at the time. They cranked it's ST up again in early MoP but heavily nerfed it back again when it caused the AOE to get too high. Otherwise combat was only the AOE spec which you switched to from your proper ST spec , whether Sin or Sub.

Combat was top for a while in Cata, like mid DS before Sub outscaled (but the Sub rotation at the time was a practice in carpal tunnel abuse).

I spent a long time dummy testing this after it went live and was surprised to find my overall numbers pretty much exactly the same on live so not sure how it's a nerf. Not that live results matter anyway - looking forward to new sims.

I think their goal wasn't to give a buff, but to give "poison" talents an equal footing.

[ymirsson]

Assassination was a spec long before mutilate was an ability. So much for any teens. Or boppers.

True heroes call it "assa" anyway.
Because real rogues like the ass in their game.

[RobertoCarlos]

I call it assass for short. Anyway all the talk of poisons, who cares they missed the ball on it. They should have effects and be more dynamic rather than passive damage and pvp passives like mind numbing/wound.

They could have given assass the sub treatment and just give us 10 different spells with the word poison in it like shadow. Class fantasy yo

[Gilor]

Combat was top for a while in Cata, like mid DS before Sub outscaled (but the Sub rotation at the time was a practice in carpal tunnel abuse).

I guess we all have different experiences - I used sub for spine burst but it was never a playable spec prior to SoO (and even then it was still behind until they made it mandatory in WoD.)

I think their goal wasn't to give a buff, but to give "poison" talents an equal footing.

Agreed, the guy I was commenting on was saying it was a nerf which I don't see in live numbers.

Nobody called it Sin, broheim shake.

It's true we always used to call it ass and changed to Mut (because ... ass) but personally I like the change to Sin - fits better with naming conventions for other specs. Change is good friend.

This guy gets it!

Sin is what the teenie boppers call AssasSINation nowadays. It's pretty stupid. It's pronounced "mut".

Sadly I turned 50 last year and rolled my first rogue back in vanilla so I actually quite like being called a teenie bopper by internet rands. Thanks

[TheRogue]

Sin-mut-ass sounds like a wild weekend