Cosmetics are not a meaningful choice, abilities are

[Echocho]

Think of it like this. Choosing a career based on the uniform isn't meaningful, choosing a career based on what you get to do when you're at work is a meaningful choice.

That's how people feel when you say that the choice is meaningful if you remove the abilities from the covenants. Cosmetic choices are per definition meaningless.

[facefist]

We got dozens of threads on this and you think you came up with so good comparison that it deserves its own thread. (which it is not, it's so stupid to compare career choices to choices in a videogame and think it's somehow comparable)

Just post this in one of the many threads discussing covenants. Its not something that deserves a new thread.

[Dundebuns]

Think of it like this. Choosing a career based on the uniform isn't meaningful, choosing a career based on what you get to do when you're at work is a meaningful choice.

That's how people feel when you say that the choice is meaningful if you remove the abilities from the covenants. Cosmetic choices are per definition meaningless.

This is a game, not a life choice.

[Xath]

Think of it like this. Choosing a career based on the uniform isn't meaningful, choosing a career based on what you get to do when you're at work is a meaningful choice.

That's how people feel when you say that the choice is meaningful if you remove the abilities from the covenants. Cosmetic choices are per definition meaningless.

This is a multiplayer online game. It isn't a job or even a single player rpg just stop. All this does is make it so you don't get to make a choice you choose whatever is best and don't get to choose based on story mog or mount.

Cosmetic choices mean far more than false choices which is the current system

[Garymorilix]

Think of it like this. Choosing a career based on the uniform isn't meaningful, choosing a career based on what you get to do when you're at work is a meaningful choice.

That's how people feel when you say that the choice is meaningful if you remove the abilities from the covenants. Cosmetic choices are per definition meaningless.

So, are you for or against covenants?

I don't get what the argument here actually is.

[Santti]

Cosmetics are very much a meaningful choice. I'd argue the abilities are less so, because you can't predict which one will be the best tomorrow, where as the cosmetics are unlikely going to be changed once available. Granted, many of us have a rather impressive wardrobes by now, but that just tells how important the cosmetics are.

So just pick what looks nice, and is fun to play.

[Kaver]

Think of it like this. Choosing a career based on the uniform isn't meaningful, choosing a career based on what you get to do when you're at work is a meaningful choice.

That's how people feel when you say that the choice is meaningful if you remove the abilities from the covenants. Cosmetic choices are per definition meaningless.

This is an awful comparison. You are seriously comparing cosmetics in your career with cosmetics in a fantasy MMO? Did you also use this logic when picking your wow race? "I'm not an Orc when I go to work IRL so of course I'm not going to be an Orc in this fantasy game!". This must be the dumbest comparison I have seen in here for a long time, and that says a lot..

You’re right, I don’t pick my job based on the cloth I’m going to wear. But this is a VIDEO GAME with elves and fairies and orcs and dragons! The cosmetics definitely plays a big role when picking something like a covenant. There is a huge difference between being a cool vampire dude compared to some flimsy forest elf. But if the flimsy forest elf got the best abilities then sadly I feel forced to pick that one even though I think it looks like dog shit. Imagine being a DK and having to join Night Fae because of performance. But I would still do it because I want to have the best performance possible. I don't want to use semi-optimal abilities. And that is not an interesting choice. It's just about being the best. Picking abilities is not a meaningful choice because you just pick whatever is best. Nothing meaningful about that.

[Adamas102]

It’s an awful comparison.

You’re right, I don’t pick my job based on the cloth I’m going to wear. But this is a VIDEO GAME with elves and fairies and orcs and dragons! The cosmetics definitely plays a big role when picking something like a covenant. There is a huge difference between being a cool vampire dude compared to some flimsy forest elf. But if the flimsy forest elf got the best abilities then sadly I feel forced to pick that one even though I think it looks like dog shit. Imagine being a DK and having to join Night Fae because of performance.

Except you're not being forced, you're simply weighing the abilities against the aesthetics and making a choice. I think that's the point. I disagree with the OP that cosmetic choices are totally meaningless, but I do agree that keeping the Covenants as they are makes for a more meaningful choice.

[Kaver]

Except you're not being forced, you're simply weighing the abilities against the aesthetics and making a choice. I think that's the point. I disagree with the OP that cosmetic choices are totally meaningless, but I do agree that keeping the Covenants as they are makes for a more meaningful choice.

I feel forced. And that sucks from my point of view. Playing wow should be about having fun and feel good while playing.

Most people will not see a meaningful choice. They will simply pick whatever is best and that is not meaningful. Do you want a million dollars or a billion dollars? What a meaningful decision.

[Echocho]

Most people will not see a meaningful choice.

Do you have a source to go with that fact?

[Toybox]

I think you'll find the majority of the playerbase probably cares more about dressing up than they do any sort of rental DPS ability.

[Itori]

Think of it like this. Choosing a career based on the uniform isn't meaningful, choosing a career based on what you get to do when you're at work is a meaningful choice.

That's how people feel when you say that the choice is meaningful if you remove the abilities from the covenants. Cosmetic choices are per definition meaningless.

yes, but this is a video game, and in this video game you have a ton of people complaining about the meta covenant and how much of a horrible decision it was, me personally i'd rather my horrible decisions be dictated by my choice of stats and talents and not by a permanent list of abilities that may or may not be nerfed in the future, and the only way to change is to reroll my 15yr old character.

[Great Destiny Man]

Sure the transmogs themselves aren't something alone that would warrant a significant choice. But when combined with the potential story arcs, different daily activities and overall the change in which you interact with the expansion then yea it is a significant choice, even without being locked to specific abilities.

It's like saying choosing to fight for Country X with massively different ideologies and cultures vs Country Y is not a significant choice because they both might use the same weapons.

[TheVaryag]

Think of it like this. Choosing a career based on the uniform isn't meaningful, choosing a career based on what you get to do when you're at work is a meaningful choice.

That's how people feel when you say that the choice is meaningful if you remove the abilities from the covenants. Cosmetic choices are per definition meaningless.

That's cool for you, but then for the health of the game It will NOT be good to choose a covenant based on which of it gives you more DPS. I want to be Venthyr but It could get nerfed weeks after launch, like subtlety did weeks after Legion. Blizzard are historically untrustworthy and can't balance these things at all, let alone 5 of these systems ontop of each other.

The solution is easy: Bake in the abilities into 2x talent rows per class and that's it. Let Covenants be a story/cosmetic choice, bam wam thank you mam.

If you want that, that's cool bro, but then you can be as happy as choosing those venthyr or kyrian abilities from a talent row while the rest of us enjoy a non-broken borrowed power system for the first time in 5 years.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I have at least a good chance that the transmog won't be altered down the line, with the abilities such a luxury is far from given. So all my "mEanInGFuL cHOIce" comes down to is gambling that I made the right choice with abilities.

Not to mention this is
a) a game, not real life
b) a thempark MMORPG not an SP RPG. And even in an SP RPG the devs usually don't make you pick between a new witcher sign and a gwnt card.
c) every choice that has an effect is meaningful, it doesn't matter if it was made without knowledge 10 years ago, or with knowledge a second ago while only lasting for 5 minutes.
d) did you really think your drivel needed another thread?

[Geckoo]

Think of it like this. Choosing a career based on the uniform isn't meaningful, choosing a career based on what you get to do when you're at work is a meaningful choice.

That's how people feel when you say that the choice is meaningful if you remove the abilities from the covenants. Cosmetic choices are per definition meaningless.

There is a lot of stuff going on with covenants, both cosmetic and performance-based. The issue is about one single system trying to do too much and tied to one single choice.

First, let's take performance out of the picture for one second: is not just a transmog and a mount. It's a whole story, zone, travel system, followers, each has it's own special thing going on... i don't think all of that is meaningless, personally? i feel like it would be more than enough and i would be more than happy being locked to that choice for the whole expansion.

Now, let's consider performance:
- I am of the idea that signature abilities will end up being equivalent to racials. I really don't have a problem with them being tied to that choice, and i'm confident that the clear outliers for certain types of content will end up being nerfed or changed through beta (or at least, that's what i hope).
- Soulbinds are more impactful and problematic, but i can live being tied to a bunch of passives as long as conduits are the same for all covenants and stay as the strong and meaningful point of soulbinds.
- I don't like class abilities being part of that choice because having 4 abilities designed for your class but being told that you can only play with 1 for the whole expansion doesn't feel good at all.

Those individual things sum up and are tied to one single choice. A choice that you will be asked to make without enough information about how each moving part can work for you, the way you play and the type of content you usually play. Is a system that is trying to do too much.

Some of those moving parts need to be decoupled from that one single choice.

[Ninix]

Think of it like this. Choosing a career based on the uniform isn't meaningful, choosing a career based on what you get to do when you're at work is a meaningful choice.

That's how people feel when you say that the choice is meaningful if you remove the abilities from the covenants. Cosmetic choices are per definition meaningless.

It's a game.
Not a career. A Game.

[Archmage Alodi]

I don't like a meaningful choice if it makes me perform badly in an online game with group based content.

[Armourboy]

Looks doesn't matter? I'm willing to bet at least 50% of players make their pick for that reason alone. Aesthetics are a much bigger pull than people ever want to admit.

[Mic_128]

I think you'll find the majority of the playerbase probably cares more about dressing up than they do any sort of rental DPS ability.

Exactly. One of these things is permanent, the other lasts the length of one expansion. I'm going to look at the permanent acquisition.