[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

Well , like i said you have to keep in mind that we have basicly conviction at the very begining of a fight so SoL is up just within one or two (depending with what talents one is playing ) GDS's , which isn't that much considering that we aren't the only ones with some form of rampup time or who are spending a GCD to keep some buff or something like it up.
Also most fights are lasting for only about 3-5 min. So in a 3min fight this would be just 4 GCD's and in a 5min fight 6-7. Which isn't that much.
Also SoL pays for it's self and grants an addition throughout a fight itself.
Like i said SoL itself isn't the problem. In the end it will of course depend how much haste we are being given from it. I think we can all agree that only 5-10% haste isn't worth that much with the exeption of a exeptionally long fight.

This is also what frightens me the most about this. I absolutly exept that Zeals haste gain will be extremly nerfed to about overall maybe 5-8%haste increase , maybe just maybe it will stay at 10%. But if SoL gets nerfed heavily and is reduced to also maybe around 10% haste , then our entire T100 row is just useless , if not even outright a dps loss.
And yet this is the problem here. SoL must be somewhat strong to actually pay for itself and give and relevant addition even over the course of a relativly short fight. And yet it shouldn't be so strong that it just completly devalues haste as a stat if it is used in combination with Zeal.
So either SoL gets removed with the rest of the Tier 100 row and is replaced with something actually usefull that is not a dps loss , a wannabe FV replacement within mascaraded as a casting spell that is a complete oximoron in terms of "class fantasy" that should be now meele focused. Or a groupheal that is stupid because it has two costs within it. Firstly by choosing the Talent and secondly by using it.

But and this is the problem with the specc now overall. There is a extrem gap between our baseline repertoire and the Talent tree. Look at all the other classes and their talent tree and you see there a direct interaction and synergie between the abilites and the Talents. In ours there is for the most part just a x deals more damage or healing or complete replacements of available abilites - with the exeption of 2 CS Talents and the lazy judg Talent everything else is just a complete replacement. Aswell as a lack of theme. And a forced decision making.
In everyone else Talent tree there is a decision like "how do you want to make more AE dps here , and how do want to make ST dps there" , in ours it is " do you want to make ST or AE dps? You can have one but not both at the same time".

Dude, we are nowhere near the other classes atm, don't make rationalisations over what we should accept as penalties. Those GCD's have a huge cost. We have learned this during Cataclysm. It will be impossible for us to be competitive if we have to lose 5 globals a fight doing 0 damage. Especially in the pull.

With that said i totally agree with your other point. This conversation is a thing because 1. our baseline rotation is crap and slow, needs more abilities and 2. our talent tree offers no choices that change up that gameplay.

[Found]

It will be impossible for us to be competitive if we have to lose 5 globals a fight doing 0 damage. Especially in the pull.

Again - on the pull in Legion, your RPPM trinkets will not be up. The only trinkets you'll have up will probably be %-chance ones (maybe) and on-use ones. Burst potential on the pull is being pretty substantially lowered for all classes.

Also, I am definitely not sold that spending 5 globals on things other than damage dooms us. Rogues today have to spend globals on Slice and Dice and they're doing fine. There's also likely to be occasional downtime or movement on many fights, where spending the GCD to refresh SoL will not be nearly as much of a loss as in a pure ST, no-movement scenario.

[Alindra]

So either SoL gets removed with the rest of the Tier 100 row and is replaced with something actually usefull that is not a dps loss , a wannabe FV replacement within mascaraded as a casting spell that is a complete oximoron in terms of "class fantasy" that should be now meele focused. Or a groupheal that is stupid because it has two costs within it. Firstly by choosing the Talent and secondly by using it.

Yeah, a talent row that is split between a damage buff and utility (but a damage loss) will never work. It was the same problem with Turaylon's Might competing with ES / Consecration. That said, they I think they could tweak the row to make them at least closer to one another. For example:

Holy Wrath: No longer costs Holy Power. For each second you channel Holy Wrath gain 1 Holy Power and +X% movement speed for Y seconds. There, it's no longer competing with TV (and all the associated artifact traits), and while it probably wouldn't provide as much of a long term damage buff as SoL, it would still have its uses for a heal, burst HP, or a short term speed buff. (If this is too strong, perhaps make it still cost 3 HP, but regenerate all 3 over the length of the cast.)

Word of Glory: In addition to the current effect, it also provides +X versatility for Y seconds, based off the damage healed. (To targets or the paladin only?) There, it heals, prevents damage for a short period and provides additional damage buff. Imaging using this in a high raid damage fight.

I'm just throwing out ideas on how they could be more competitive with one another, not saying they're perfect or even ideal solutions.

In everyone else Talent tree there is a decision like "how do you want to make more AE dps here , and how do want to make ST dps there" , in ours it is " do you want to make ST or AE dps? You can have one but not both at the same time".

This is one thing that annoys me about the new talent trees and the ease of respeccing in general. Your talent choices no longer define your character - they're just something you change to the "best" combination on a fight by fight basis.

[Lumineus]

Also, I am definitely not sold that spending 5 globals on things other than damage dooms us. Rogues today have to spend globals on Slice and Dice and they're doing fine.

What, in Legion? Because Combat (the spec that's keeping SnD) is hot garbage on Live.

[Deleted]

Dude, we are nowhere near the other classes atm, don't make rationalisations over what we should accept as penalties. Those GCD's have a huge cost. We have learned this during Cataclysm. It will be impossible for us to be competitive if we have to lose 5 globals a fight doing 0 damage. Especially in the pull.

With that said i totally agree with your other point. This conversation is a thing because 1. our baseline rotation is crap and slow, needs more abilities and 2. our talent tree offers no choices that change up that gameplay.

This is not rationalisation of any kind. It is as it is , simply as it is. Those GDC have some short term costs to them , this is correct , but they have a long term gain within them aswell. This is something that one has to consider. Also Cata and Legion are two different things , if you want to make an actuall comparison make it with end Tier SoO MoP. Because in Cata our HP generation was just complete and outright shit with only CS being capable of producing HP and it having a chance to miss. In both MoP and Legion HP generation is quite a lot faster than in Cata , even thou in legion it is somewhat slower from a lack of many baseline HP generating abilites - CS(CF/Zeal) and BoX.
Like i said , i doubt that your problem is really SoL as a spell itself , what pisses you off the most is that you don't like the concept of Inquisition and Seal of Inq in itself aswell as the lack of alternativs.
Still , like i said , if SoL remains the only viable choice in the Tier 100 row i will totaly agree with you that the things sucks immensly. But with good an strong alternativs this point just nullfies itselfs with rare occasions like a 8-10min. fight with a high uptime were SoL gains a lot of value. But looses value severly in shorter burst fights like Fel lord or Iron Reaver.

[Found]

What, in Legion? Because Combat (the spec that's keeping SnD) is hot garbage on Live.

Doesn't Sub also spend GCDs on Slice and Dice on live? My point was that just because you have to spend globals on maintenance buffs doesn't mean you're going to be doomed dps-wise.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Doesn't Sub also spend GCDs on Slice and Dice on live? My point was that just because you have to spend globals on maintenance buffs doesn't mean you're going to be doomed dps-wise.

and if we add monitoring when and on whom to place GBoMs into equaion?

[Found]

and if we add monitoring when and on whom to place GBoMs into equaion?

You'll hear no arguments in favor of the GBoM design from me. I think that spell is horrible and should just not be in the game.

[Eon Drache]

Finally got around to testing Holy and can't help but feel Turalyon's Might was removed more so because it was too similar to Beacon of Hope rather than "It doesn't fit the class fantasy. They are essentially the same thing (Turalyon's Might was a teleport before)

[ruiizu]

You'll hear no arguments in favor of the GBoM design from me. I think that spell is horrible and should just not be in the game.

Greater Blessing of Might is such wasted potential because there are plenty of other types of utility they could give to the spell. One does HP absorb, other does resource regeneration, why not have Blessing of Might give runspeed or something? With Seal of Light, we could rock +30% runspeed at all times, and it's a useful minor utility for raid members that doesn't have a large impact on measured gameplay.

[Deleted]

Finally got around to testing Holy and can't help but feel Turalyon's Might was removed more so because it was too similar to Beacon of Hope rather than "It doesn't fit the class fantasy. They are essentially the same thing (Turalyon's Might was a teleport before)

That doesn't makes sense , which fits blizz current MO. Because We have both Divine Steed asweel as Divine Intention in our Talent tree which are both directly stolen from Holys and Prots baseline repertoire.

[Eon Drache]

That doesn't makes sense , which fits blizz current MO. Because We have both Divine Steed asweel as Divine Intention in our Talent tree which are both directly stolen from Holys and Prots baseline repertoire.

I can't think of anything else. Beacon of Hope is literally the same concept as Turalyon's Might. Maybe they didn't want to do the animation?

[Morally Grey Storm]

I can't think of anything else. Beacon of Hope is literally the same concept as Turalyon's Might. Maybe they didn't want to do the animation?

Maybe they didn't want Ret to have anything resembling charge or more than semidecently useful?

[Eon Drache]

Maybe they didn't want Ret to have anything resembling charge or more than semidecently useful?

I'm to the point I think they just hate ret. The charge thing won't stick with me because the holy pally Beacon is a teleport. Just like Turalyon's Might was. Outside of how the rotation feels in PvE with Zeal and Seal of Light I'm sorely disappointed with ret and they are going the wrong way with it imo.

[Nition]

I've not been reading this thread for a while so I might be totally out of whack with what people are saying, however I recently got in to the beta and had a good go on ret and thought I'd share some of my thoughts.
One of the big things I picked up from people on here were worried about holes in the rotation. The biggest thing I've taken away from playing is that haste is super important on how the spec plays at the moment. That's why taking Seal of Light feels almost mandatory at the moment to making the spec not suck. It is very noticeable when its not up, but when it is it makes the ability rotation much much smoother. As long as you're taking Crusaders Flurry with it, you're not going to have a crazy number of globals waiting, maybe one global every 15-20 seconds. I was also worried about Holy Power control, but again with CF you have a nice flow over HP generation (it also increases conviction proc chance through more CS's).

In terms of damage, you can line up some really nice damage inside the judgement windows, and Templars Verdict feels really meaty right now which is great. Obviously tuning isn't done, but rets are going to be able to line up some serious burst with 5 HP inside a judgement window.

The other big concern is movement, which currently feels slightly lacking. This also further lends to the fact that Seal of Light feels totally mandatory from that point of view, obviously in a pve scenario its literally the only choice for final tier, but even in pvp its going to be hard to compete with. That 20% movement speed helps A LOT, and most classes don't have a (practically) permanent speed increase. However outside of that there is nothing (no one is going to pass up Blessing of Sanctuary except in solo pvp), and without freedom rets are sitting ducks right now. Divine Steed generally is too weak a talent to compete with the other options (competing againt a talent that halfs the cd on our main defensive cd, cmon) It seems all plate melee are still going to be the rootable/slowable classes, but only warriors are getting any meaningful way to get back on the target after that.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I'm to the point I think they just hate ret. The charge thing won't stick with me because the holy pally Beacon is a teleport. Just like Turalyon's Might was. Outside of how the rotation feels in PvE with Zeal and Seal of Light I'm sorely disappointed with ret and they are going the wrong way with it imo.

Why so negative? It's only alpha/beta/delta/zeta/omega!

[Deleted]

For now the more urgent issue is redefining the talent placement. But instead of saying "oh lvl 100 row is trash" we should think what exactly should that row be focused on: utility or personal performance.
This I think is the core issue. Once we identify/compromise with devs which row is responsible for what then I think we can start seeing some actual improvements to talent themselves.

Let's say lvl75 is personal performance, move SoL to that tier instead of Equality. Then you have a passive TV enhancer when you want to stick to sustained finisher damage as main source of holy power consumer. Burst? Go SoL. AoE? Here's Mass Judgment for you.

lvl90 is the survivability tier: Divine Intervention brings us back to 20% and applies Divine Shield, the cooldown on Divine Shield is refreshed to full duration if it was used before. Make Divine Steed baseline and instead of that put Eye for an Eye in this place. Blaze of Light stays the same.

lvl100 THE UTILITY: SOME NEW TALENT in place of Holy Wrath (more on HW later).
Equality (now Reckoning) - 2 min cd raid cooldown - lasts X seconds after which it explodes dealing damage to all enemies in Y radius based on % of the damage the entire raid received during that time.
Word of Glory stays the same.

Just gonna leave it here but that's pretty much the jist of the issue.

[DrMcNinja]

The above is a philosophical statement we don't necessarily agree with. There are people that enjoy a slower pace of combat (one that isn't gcd locked), and the class design has to service their preferences too.

There's a fairly common tendency for some players to believe that all talents should be designed to service their play style (active versus passive, gcd locked versus not, solo questing versus raiding versus pvp, etc) such that they have three choices on all rows that they consider compelling alternatives, when in reality it's more about choosing a set of talents that fits your particular style and therefore defines your character (or at least the way you play it in any given situation)

Meh. Fuck your philosophy.

[Deleted]

Seeing the latest tweet how they removed TM because "lol class fantasy" but they offer us Steed via talents I just wanna say 1 word.

Motherfuckers.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Seeing the latest tweet how they removed TM because "lol class fantasy" but they offer us Steed via talents I just wanna say 1 word.

Motherfuckers.

no need to be negative or bashful!
such kind of feedback always gets ignored and leads nowhere!