Will Legion stagger change hurt our sustained mitigation?

[Saverem]

We currently get 20% Stagger for being in tank stance, plus Mastery directly buffs it for a total of about 37% or so of Stagger mitigation at all times assuming you're in average tank gear.

Looks like in Legion we will have a base of 6% Stagger which we could talent for another 5% giving us a grand total of 11% Stagger at all times, if we get that talent...which is looking pretty shitty compared to the other two options.

Instead in Legion, they're going to give us Ironskin Brew to compensate which gives us 60% stagger for a few seconds, but it'll only be up for about half of the time or so, if that. It's basically our version of the Prot Warrior's Shield Block ability.

Also in Legion, instead of using Guard as a way to protect against spell damage, they are also letting Stagger mitigate magic at half the rate. So the 60% stagger buff will also give us 30% magical damage mitigation. Don't know how I feel about that, I guess it'll be better on some fights and worse on others.


What do you guys think of this change? Won't it hurt our sustained mitigation? Giving us more RNG like Ox healing Orb procs and RNG Dodge Mastery seems pretty shitty.

[Xiaojin]

We don't know the traits of Brewmaster artifact yet. I expect to get some passive mitigation from there as well. And even if we don't, Blizzard still has more than enough time to tweak other stuff, like increasing the Stagger from our stance.

But I agree with you on Gift of the Ox and the new mastery. I don't like either of them. Not in terms of numbers but in terms of design.

[Deleted]

If nothing else is changed, yes it hurt it.

If they actually balance the classe to have less stagger and more direct mitigation it won't. And by design, ironbrew mean they can't allow more than 25% base stagger at the very most, which would already be a 25% nerf of mitigation compared to your 37% value.

So, if they fauil the balancing completely, it will impact sustained mitigation a lot. If they aren't moron (and I think blizzard actually make pretty few really moronic design), it entirely depend on the further adjustment compared to other tanks.

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But I agree with you on Gift of the Ox and the new mastery. I don't like either of them. Not in terms of numbers but in terms of design.

The design on the mastery is rather lovely ; the design on gift of the ox is something I hope they will make work.

[keqe]

There is absolutely no way they will just leave us with 6% stagger. Other tanks are keeping their "hey, you're a tank" passives. Like 20% (25%?) for warriors. We will get something similar or else rogue will literally be tankier than us

And it won't be just from artifacts. 1-100 lvls exist so they will add something when they know what they add.

[Deleted]

Since most tanks has yet been released in alpha and we haven't been given the artifact traits it is still difficult to determine where BRM stands in survival. The design and concept however is probably here to stay and I do like how they decided to return our strength back into stagger and purifying it.

However I am skeptic about the IB and PB sharing CDs and how powerful stagger IB is atm. I assume that it will be lowered and our passive will be increased. Overall what pisses me off the most is how they have reduced our self healing into a mess of RNG nonsense. The current Gift of the Ox was not exactly praised by the monk community and then Blizzard decided to pour everything into it to justify their class-fantasy BS. It has become clear that they don't want monks to be as strong in healing as it currently is but to let our only self healing be an ability that is out of our control is plain retarded.

There are other concerns for BRM as well since we've gone from being the best at picking up adds to mediocre and below (losing dizzying haze & dave being a talent). The last thing to note about Artifact Traits is the progression. If they add too many useful or even vital upgrades into it we'll be facing a poor leveling experience (being a weak ass busta) and hopefully they'll empower our baseline enough.

The design on the mastery is rather lovely ; the design on gift of the ox is something I hope they will make work.

Care to elaborate on the Gift of the Ox? Most people I have seen discussing Gift of the Ox agrees that BRMs need a complimentary skill or a design change yet you feel that they are on the right track? I don't have much to say about mastery until further tests have been made.

[Xiaojin]

The design on the mastery is rather lovely ; the design on gift of the ox is something I hope they will make work.

I can see the appeal of the mastery because it is more predictable as long as you get auto-attacked for an extended period of time. But it also means you will get hit A LOT. For me personally, keeping Elusive Brew up and bridging the bad RNG (not dodging and/or not gaining new EB stacks) with Expel Harm and Guard worked rather lovely. The new mastery feels like you always have bad luck. You're just protected from things getting insanely bad (like a bad luck streak that is so rare it happens only once a tier at most).
Maybe they were looking for some interaction between Stagger and mastery such that high mastery makes you purify less, leaving you with a higher Ironskin Brew uptime and/or making you easier to heal when you just can't purify. But by the time you finally dodge, you will probably want to purify anyway because you already took several hits and thanks to Ironskin Brew the amount of staggered damage will probably be quite high already.
I just can't see how "you're pretty much guaranteed to dodge at some point but you're also pretty much guaranteed to get hit X times (+- 1 hit most of the time) in between any two instances in which you dodge" is fun or results in engaging gameplay for the person being attacked. At least I can't see this in an MMORPG like WoW. People mentioned that this design is more common in DotA, where I can see it work far better due all the different player view points you have on a fight.

GotO just cannot work reliably in a raiding environment in which positioning and movement is as important as it is now. And I don't want Blizzard to make simpler, more restricted raid encounters when it comes to movement. Things that would make GotO work reliably enough so that we do not need Expel Harm/Guard basically remove all that movement/class fantasy stuff and turn GotO into a new version of Expel Harm with different amounts of healing and without damage.

[Deleted]

It's too early to worry about numbers at this point. There'll be a lot of balancing passes to make sure that all tanks are viable. There is definitely reason to worry about the design of BrM mechanics, though. The further into testing you get, the less likely they are to change mechanics. The worst thing that can happen is that Monks end up with crappy mechanics that aren't fun, and then they slap on a x% armor and health buff at the last moment.

[Saverem]

There is absolutely no way they will just leave us with 6% stagger. Other tanks are keeping their "hey, you're a tank" passives. Like 20% (25%?) for warriors. We will get something similar or else rogue will literally be tankier than us

And it won't be just from artifacts. 1-100 lvls exist so they will add something when they know what they add.

I'm sure we're still getting the standard 20% straight less damage buff plus the standard 6% crit reduction buff like all the tanks do. It's just that it'll no longer also give us the 20% stagger we're getting now.

[Deleted]

I wish we could just get a talent that makes GotOx give stacks/charges of a self-heal instead of spawning orbs, for movement-heavy fights. That would solve so much.

Then a nice minor cd for IB downtime (my imagination came up with '50% reduced damage from stagger, if IB is not up you gain 40% stagger' which leads to either approximately 30% damage reduction with IB up and 20% damage reduction and 20% smoothing without IB up and has a bit of the brewmaster quirkiness).

Then the only issues I have left are Niuzao (I don't understand why they give a tank-pet a taunt, when most tanks are annoyed enough already with taunting hunter pets), and our aoe pickup/threat abilities (and I want to wait and see how that turns out when Brewmasters are finally in alpha-testing before I have a real opinion about that, since I currently don't use dizzying haze anyways, but I do use chiex sometimes).

[Felancelan]

Too early, when we get to see it play tested we will know more, I hope they have a chance to dodge spells, that could be added to their mastery. Maybe when we dodge we generate energy, more energy, less coodown. They said they want crit to still be a good stat so maybe we will have out crit chance to lower the brew cds, or our crits reduce the cooldowns even more.

[Xiaojin]

Then the only issues I have left are Niuzao (I don't understand why they give a tank-pet a taunt, when most tanks are annoyed enough already with taunting hunter pets), and our aoe pickup/threat abilities (and I want to wait and see how that turns out when Brewmasters are finally in alpha-testing before I have a real opinion about that, since I currently don't use dizzying haze anyways, but I do use chiex sometimes).

I find that to be annoying, too, but I doubt it will be a problem. If Niuzao is anything like Xuen, we can simply turn off its taunt and it'll stay that way. Maybe you did that at some point and simply forgot about it. But Xuen, if summoned by a fresh Brewmaster, actually taunts as well. Or at least he used to, I've turned it off early on and then never bothered to check if his taunting ability is still present.

[Deleted]

I know you can turn it off, that's not the issue. The issue I have is why blizz even thinks that giving a tanks pet the 'bonus' of a taunt is smart in any way... I don't think any brewmaster lets Xuen taunt, so why give Niuzao a taunt? As said, give him a damage reduction, or a heal or something, anything that actually helps with tanking. Not something that is actually a big annoyance for tanks in the first place.

[Leblue]

I wish we could just get a talent that makes GotOx give stacks/charges of a self-heal instead of spawning orbs, for movement-heavy fights. That would solve so much.

Like maybe...I dunno having Expel Harm gain charges everytime it would've procced (up to a cap of lets say 3) and you could use Expel Harm to release those orbs when you wanted them?

Biggest concern about the current system (and looking at strictly Ironskin Brew and stagger) is the neccessity of having very high uptime on Ironskin Brew while actively tanking and at what point purifying becomes worthwhile without having an add-on to track it so that you'll actually not be screaming for externals or burning Fortifying Brew to bridge the gap of not having Ironskin you just created by purifying.

[Deleted]

I am curious to see how an addon would help that decision. I can see purifying in two moment right now :

* because the burst of damage stopped and you will have enough downtime to regenerate your brew charges until the next time you need it
* because you only have one charge left after a string of 5+ ironskin brew and the damage burst will continue, because you prefer 6 more second of non-brew tanking to not having brew AND having a ginormous dot on your head.

[DisposableHero]

I am curious to see how an addon would help that decision. I can see purifying in two moment right now :

* because the burst of damage stopped and you will have enough downtime to regenerate your brew charges until the next time you need it
* because you only have one charge left after a string of 5+ ironskin brew and the damage burst will continue, because you prefer 6 more second of non-brew tanking to not having brew AND having a ginormous dot on your head.

There isn't much point in speculating as things stand right now. If the passive mitigation isn't brought into line with that of other tank classes Purifying will never be worth while, because the downtime generated in IB by using purify will create in most scenarios more of a crisis than simply letting the stagger damage expire.

[ambident]

There isn't much point in speculating as things stand right now. If the passive mitigation isn't brought into line with that of other tank classes Purifying will never be worth while, because the downtime generated in IB by using purify will create in most scenarios more of a crisis than simply letting the stagger damage expire.

I don't think spamming IB sans purify will ever be a thing, and I don't think it is at all what Blizzard intended...

you are right about speculating though, brm seems entirely incomplete right now.

The problem with no-purify-ib-spam is that the other tanks active mitigation tools reduce spike damage while also reducing overall damage intake or healing required. The way people are suggesting brm will play out means if BRM A maximizes IB uptime, while BRM B forgets to bind his active mitigation tools, they end up taking the same amount of damage. BRM A is less spiky unless he is still tanking when his last IB runs out, at which point he is significantly more spiky for a few seconds. So if the amount of damage brm takes doesn't actually depend on using active mitigation, then what is it reduced by? dodge mastery and health globes?

An AFK warrior will take less damage than a monk spamming ironskin, will the warrior really be that much spikier? What if the warrior uses his AM? Also, in this scenario brm basically have a time limit for how long they can tank, what about council fights or other types of fights that require the tank to tank for the duration of the fight?

To bring a tank that takes significantly more damage than any other tanks would mean either
a) healer mana / time is of no consideration whatsoever.
b) _all_ of the other tank specs have such a large issue with spike damage that a slightly smoother tank that takes significantly more damage is actually preferable.
c) there is a gimmicky mechanic that IB can trivialize

When Blizzard spoke of the warrior active mitigation, they said they didn't like shield barrier / shield block competing, so they gave shield block a negligible rage cost and a new ability, ignore pain, as a primary rage spender. How to reconcile that with the competing nature of shared charge ib/purify?

[Nicklas]

I don't think spamming IB sans purify will ever be a thing, and I don't think it is at all what Blizzard intended...

you are right about speculating though, brm seems entirely incomplete right now.

The problem with no-purify-ib-spam is that the other tanks active mitigation tools reduce spike damage while also reducing overall damage intake or healing required. The way people are suggesting brm will play out means if BRM A maximizes IB uptime, while BRM B forgets to bind his active mitigation tools, they end up taking the same amount of damage. BRM A is less spiky unless he is still tanking when his last IB runs out, at which point he is significantly more spiky for a few seconds. So if the amount of damage brm takes doesn't actually depend on using active mitigation, then what is it reduced by? dodge mastery and health globes?

An AFK warrior will take less damage than a monk spamming ironskin, will the warrior really be that much spikier? What if the warrior uses his AM? Also, in this scenario brm basically have a time limit for how long they can tank, what about council fights or other types of fights that require the tank to tank for the duration of the fight?

To bring a tank that takes significantly more damage than any other tanks would mean either
a) healer mana / time is of no consideration whatsoever.
b) _all_ of the other tank specs have such a large issue with spike damage that a slightly smoother tank that takes significantly more damage is actually preferable.
c) there is a gimmicky mechanic that IB can trivialize

When Blizzard spoke of the warrior active mitigation, they said they didn't like shield barrier / shield block competing, so they gave shield block a negligible rage cost and a new ability, ignore pain, as a primary rage spender. How to reconcile that with the competing nature of shared charge ib/purify?

We still know nothing on how the artifact works, nor if any of the things in the preview sticks. I'd say wait for it to atleast be available on Alpha before comparing to much, after that go ham on critics.

[Deleted]

The thing is I can't imagine Blizz making any tank actually unviable for any but cutting edge progress. However I can imagine blizz making a tank bad enough that even people who love it will step away from it, because all other tanks are simply that much better.

[Leblue]

Competing resources can work, but the choices need to be roughly even I think or have entirely different roles even if its as something as "this button makes you not squishy as a marshmallow and this button makes you do the damages". Even the shield block vs shield barrier differences had more specific roles on when you wanted them, just barriers tuning was always an issue. That said there are a few things they can do, but we've probably got to wait until mid January or so for more info on the remaining tanks in general.

[DisposableHero]

The thing is I can't imagine Blizz making any tank actually unviable for any but cutting edge progress. However I can imagine blizz making a tank bad enough that even people who love it will step away from it, because all other tanks are simply that much better.

I feel like there is a lot of denial right now among the brewmaster community on just how incomplete the current datamined iteration that no one can play on alpha really is, so here are some flippant remarks to help people grasp.

- Brewmasters have a total of 5 skills that actually prevent or heal damage (Fortifying Brew, Dampen Harm, Diffuse Magic, Zen Meditation and Purifying Brew), of which, only purifying brew can be used more than once a minute.
- The most effective brewmaster active mitigation keybind is currently a two way tie between strafe left and strafe right.
- The damage taken difference between a brewmaster actively tanking and a brewmaster in the kitchen making a sandwhich is 0.
- Every ability that ever counted for boss mechanics as active mitigation has been removed from the kit.
- The tier 17 2 piece, and the tier 16 4 piece are two of the worst set bonuses brewmaster has ever had. They are also the only two that would continue to function as written in legion.
- Purifying brew is the least used and least important part of brewmaster mitigation in its history, and is now the only thing that actually links the old defensive toolkit to the new one.
- The baseline mitigation of the Brewmaster compares unfavorably at present to the baseline mitigation of the Outlaw Rogue.

Plainly put, the spec is not worth talking about right now because its not finished. Even if the dev's don't plan to add anything else to the kit right now, they will add things to the kit when it gets tested and they understand how awful it is. In the mean time, I am gearing up my prot paladin.