I am glad about sanctions for Poland.

[Hengwulf]

It isn't illegal though is it though?

If it isn't they should have every right to do so and a new party can run on reversing the change if it is so disliked.

It isn't illegal. It is however using a loophole that says every law is assumed constitutional and has to be used, until it is judged to be unconstitutional. So if TC would like to call this new law unconstitutional, it must do it under new rules.

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Many people have a problem with Poland getting money from the EU without contributing to solving current problems. It's as if you would turn up for work, do nothing at all and still expect your boss to pay you.

We want to contribute to solving the problem. However, we don't believe that opening our borders and letting everyone in is a proper solution.

[procne]

The tribunal has a so-called negative legislative initiative, which means that while it can't create law, it can stop law from being created. This is a really big power, and itw as a meant for a JUDICIAL institution, which is INDEPENDENT. Professor Rzepliński and PO turned the TC into a political, dependent institution. So the so called democracy defenders are in fact defending an authoritarian political institution, without any direct mandate from the voters, and without any way to counter or appeal from its verdicts.

Let's start with the fact that judges in constitutional court are elected for 9 years, so their term spans through 3 parliament terms. Second, some of the judges currently sitting in it were chosen couple years ago with the votes of the current government. Third, removing the constitutional court turns parliament into a political institution "without any way to counter or appeal from its verdicts". Fourth, the only power of constitutional court is to block laws which are against constitution. To actually do that the court must give some justification and point to constitution fragments. They can't do that in liberum veto way and just say "oh, this is wrong, we block it". I see you find the court pointless and think that it shouldn't exist at all.

Personally I find it more likely that the court, as a political tool, will pass laws that are breaking constitution, than it blocking laws that are fine.

As for the independence of judicial branch of government - how do you comment on the fact that the government proposed to give the minister of justice the power to overrule / abolish any court decision if he finds it unjust?

[RobertMugabe]

Actually, most Poles have no problem with immigrants from Ukraine, Asia or other European countries. It's only muslim immigrants that are the problem. Partially because of the terrorism issue, but also because muslim immigrants tend to cause problems and do not assimilate, as can be seen in Germany. That's also one of the reasons current government won the election - previous government was about to accept EU's rulings that every EU country MUST accept specified number of immigrants. Current government used some fear mongering to paint all immigrants as terrorists and fuel hatred against muslims, effectively taking away voters from our previous government.

It even reached the point where a part of catholics in Poland is calling current pope a traitor, mason and undercover muslim, because he publicly said that Europe should accept the immigrants.

Well, Muslim immigrants don't give a shit about Poland anyways, so it doesn't matter...

[Deleted]

Similar thing is happening in Brazil, the difference is that the ruling party is left wing.
And happened in Venezuela too.

Sometimes i think the world is giving up on democracy

Only countries that never really had democracy to begin with.

[procne]

It isn't illegal. It is however using a loophole that says every law is assumed constitutional and has to be used, until it is judged to be unconstitutional. So if TC would like to call this new law unconstitutional, it must do it under new rules.

Which basically make the court unable to act. With the law already being against constitution I find it very unlikley that the government will be passing new laws in accordance to constitution, especially now that there's noone to stop them. Since you are ok with this, I assume you are one of the folks who want the constitution changed (current government doesn't have the required 2/3 majority to do that btw), so if that's not possible, you are at least fine with government not paying attention to it. It does make sense, however... we still don't know what exact changes, or laws which would be against constitution are going to be passed. I find it... surprising that people are willing to trust the new government so much that they are giving it the permission to break the constitution, even though no details were released about it yet.

[Cooper]

Learn from the events that followed after a mustached Austrian corporal got democratically elected into office as well. Being democratically elected doesn't mean you can now undo democracy or reduce it to a level that it's indistinguishable from an authoritarian regime. No matter how much you hate the evil, nation-destroying minority you elected to get out of your country.

Hitler wasn't elected.

[Deleted]

Why does that matter? This is about immigrants vs natives. They got no immigrants so why even mention it?
The point is, immigrants in SWEDEN, are extremly overrepresented in rape and almost all other crime compared to the Swedes.

And how do you know im right wing?

Well, it is you who tries to act as if its all about immigrants when it comes to rape. There are no immigrants in bermuda, it got the 5th highest rape rate in the world. So your theory has been disproven. Thats the idea behind it.

And yes, you are right wing. Deeply sexist. Argumenting with the typical right wing stereotypes.

There is a difference between a swedish girl wearing next to nothing and a girl wearing a burqa.

In your stereotypes and in your fantasy probably. Swedish woman dont run around half nude all day, you know? They wear the same stuff as swedish males and vice versa often nowadays. It is just in your hypersexualized point of view and actually shows where you come from and who you would like to engage with.

At the end those who accuse others of rape are the ones who are in urgent need of physical love. It is their dark fantasy.

[Hengwulf]

Second, some of the judges currently sitting in it were chosen couple years ago with the votes of the current government.

It is 14 out of 15 nominated by the previous ruling party. All that weren't from that club had their terms ending very recently.

Third, removing the constitutional court turns parliament into a political institution "without any way to counter or appeal from its verdicts".

Very true. But what does the parliament have, that the TC didn't? The very fresh and strong mandate from the voters.

Fourth, the only power of constitutional court is to block laws which are against constitution. To actually do that the court must give some justification and point to constitution fragments. They can't do that in liberum veto way and just say "oh, this is wrong, we block it". I see you find the court pointless and think that it shouldn't exist at all.

This is theory. How does it look in practice? Professor Zoll judging that the protection of the fetus can be drawns from the Constitution saying that "Poland is a state of law". Professor Rzepliński asking the governement about the costs of going back with the Open Pension Funds reform, and giving judgment about it being constitutional, just because going back would be too expensive! There are more examples of the TC leaving its "independent judge" position and interfering with the legislative.

Yes, I believe that TC in its current incarnation is complete BS, and that professor Rzepliński should resign, because he let his ambitions and his political affiliation cloud his judgement.

As for the independence of judicial branch of government - how do you comment on the fact that the government proposed to give the minister of justice the power to overrule / abolish any court decision if he finds it unjust?

This is obviously wrong - but I didn't hear about such proposal.

[Deleted]

Well, it is you who tries to act as if its all about immigrants when it comes to rape. There are no immigrants in bermuda, it got the 5th highest rape rate in the world. So your theory has been disproven. Thats the idea behind it.

And yes, you are right wing. Deeply sexist. Argumenting with the typical right wing stereotypes.



In your stereotypes and in your fantasy probably. Swedish woman dont run around half nude all day, you know? They wear the same stuff as swedish males and vice versa often nowadays. It is just in your hypersexualized point of view and actually shows where you come from and who you would like to engage with.

At the end those who accuse others of rape are the ones who are in urgent need of physical love. It is their dark fantasy.

And yet they are overrepresented here in Sweden. I dont know much about bermuda but maybe they have a very "rape friendly" culture?

Well you clearly know nothing about me so no point in talking about if im right wing or not.

Swedish males also run around half nude all day. During the warmer months atleast so whats your point?

At the end those who accuse others of rape are the ones who are in urgent need of physical love. It is their dark fantasy.

What the? I accuse no one of rape, i simply provided you with statistics. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. Personal attacks is the last cards when you have nothing to say in your defence.

Time to celebrate christmas, enjoy your life in ignorance.

[Rafoel]

It does make sense, however... we still don't know what exact changes, or laws which would be against constitution are going to be passed. I find it... surprising that people are willing to trust the new government so much that they are giving it the permission to break the constitution, even though no details were released about it yet.

This constitution is a communist relict that was enforced on Polish people to maintain a status quo. Only 20% of Poles voted YES in 1997 when asked if they support that document. With the low attendance (42%) this 20% was enough to get it through. Still, that means 80% of Poles don't agree with their own constitution in its current form. What's more, this constitution was specifically created in such a way that it's basically impossible to change the system without violating its rules. People support new government's actions as they believe its the only way of actually changing country for better. The previous government was hated universally. The ones who still support it are either getting direct benefits or have low iq and are brainwshed by the friendly media, who were turned into centers of political propaganda during last 8 years.

The only reason new government doesn't have majority of 2/3 is fast that 50% of Poles still refuse to vote, which is understandable as during last 70 years they had nothing to say under communist regime, then in 1989 they got cheated by the guys who were promising to change the country, and for the following 25 years every government was saying whatever they wanted during elections, and then continued doing exactly the opposite. They just don't believe anything anybody says now, including the current government.

[procne]

This constitution is a communist relict that was enforced on Polish people to maintain a status quo. Only 20% of Poles voted YES in 1997 when asked if they support that document. With the low attendance (42%) this 20% was enough to get it through. Still, that means 80% of Poles don't agree with their own constitution in its current form.

wat... Can you provide some source on that? Cause I found only https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refere...ce_w_1997_roku which clearly says that 52% of people accepted the constitution

What's more, this constitution was specifically created in such a way that it's basically impossible to change the system without violating its rules.

And what do you mean by that? Constitution clearly states how it can be changed. I start to think someone is feeding you some wrong info and you haven't bothered to check it yourself[quote]
People support new government's actions as they believe its the only way of actually changing country for better.

I am yet to see the proposals of how the constitution should be changed to make the country better.
The previous government was hated universally. The ones who still support it are either getting direct benefits or have low iq and are brainwshed by the friendly media, who were turned into centers of political propaganda during last 8 years.

That's ugly generalization and "if you don't agree with me then you're stupid" argument.

The only reason new government doesn't have majority of 2/3 is fast that 50% of Poles still refuse to vote, which is understandable as during last 70 years they had nothing to say under communist regime, then in 1989 they got cheated by the guys who were promising to change the country, and for the following 25 years every government was saying whatever they wanted during elections, and then continued doing exactly the opposite. They just don't believe anything anybody says now, including the current government.

Aren't you a bit arrogant to speak for 50% of your country's population?

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It is 14 out of 15 nominated by the previous ruling party. All that weren't from that club had their terms ending very recently.

Very true. But what does the parliament have, that the TC didn't? The very fresh and strong mandate from the voters.


This is theory. How does it look in practice? Professor Zoll judging that the protection of the fetus can be drawns from the Constitution saying that "Poland is a state of law". Professor Rzepliński asking the governement about the costs of going back with the Open Pension Funds reform, and giving judgment about it being constitutional, just because going back would be too expensive! There are more examples of the TC leaving its "independent judge" position and interfering with the legislative.

Yes, I believe that TC in its current incarnation is complete BS, and that professor Rzepliński should resign, because he let his ambitions and his political affiliation cloud his judgement..

As I understand it you believe that either there should be no constitutional court, and we just trust the government to comply with constitution (btw, constitution was created to enforce some rules on how government operates), or that it should be reelected everytime government changes (only then it would have the fresh mandate from the voters). But that alone makes the tribunal a government's (or ruling party's) political tool.

We have a constitution which should dictate government how it should operate. It shouldn't be easy to change. That's why CT's judges are selected for 9 years terms - they are elected by governments of at least 3 different terms. Laws passed by new government are being monitored by judges from 3 previous governments. Therefore CT is above government. Now make it so that each government totally changes the judges (thus giving them "fresh" mandate) and CT becomes government's tool, which has none function (since it may only block laws, and it won't block its own government's laws). You have listed 2 examples of CT misbehaving, but only in a way that CT allowed questionable laws. But this kind of thing has just become easier. What about the opposite? One of the reasons current government is dismantling CT is because CT would not allow the government to rule. This hasn't even happened yet. There is no law issued by the new government that would be blocked by CT. New government hasn't even tried to pass such law, and yet they know the CT won't let them.

IMO, if they had some laws prepared that people would back up, then they would try to pass them nevertheless and if CT blocked them then the government would have real reason to deal with CT. I just think that they don't want to reveal those laws, until CT is out of the picture, because people simply wouldn't like them and even more would start defending CT.

[Hengwulf]

wat... Can you provide some source on that? Cause I found only https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refere...ce_w_1997_roku which clearly says that 52% of people accepted the constitution

It was around 22% compared to the whole of population. It is like opposition tries to paint PiS's suport in the society as 19%, comparing the number of votes for PiS with the whole society, counting people who didn't vote as people who are against PiS. This is just a manipulation, both when the opposition does it, and when the PiS supporters do it. We decided to have the votes result in this manner, so we can't change our mind afterwards, when the results turned out differently than what we wanted. If our voting system allows for the plurality of votes become a majority in Parliament, than so be it.

As I understand it you believe that either there should be no constitutional court, and we just trust the government to comply with constitution (btw, constitution was created to enforce some rules on how government operates), or that it should be reelected everytime government changes (only then it would have the fresh mandate from the voters). But that alone makes the tribunal a government's (or ruling party's) political tool.

I'm fine with the constitutional court, AS LONG as it is independent judicial institution. Once it starts to take part in politics, making itself a 3rd house of the Parliament, of sorts, it should be a representation of the actual society.

We have a constitution which should dictate government how it should operate. It shouldn't be easy to change. That's why CT's judges are selected for 9 years terms - they are elected by governments of at least 3 different terms. Laws passed by new government are being monitored by judges from 3 previous governments. Therefore CT is above government. Now make it so that each government totally changes the judges (thus giving them "fresh" mandate) and CT becomes government's tool, which has none function (since it may only block laws, and it won't block its own government's laws). You have listed 2 examples of CT misbehaving, but only in a way that CT allowed questionable laws. But this kind of thing has just become easier. What about the opposite? One of the reasons current government is dismantling CT is because CT would not allow the government to rule. This hasn't even happened yet. There is no law issued by the new government that would be blocked by CT. New government hasn't even tried to pass such law, and yet they know the CT won't let them.

They don't trust the CT, because of professor Rzepliński's actions. They also have previous bad record of CT stopping the laws that altered the status quo, like with lustration law or with attempts to open the ability to become an advocate for people, who aren't members of one corporation.

I agree that new law makes the CT lot weaker, but if I have to deal with some arbitrary decisions, I rather have them to be the emanation of voters' will.

IMO, if they had some laws prepared that people would back up, then they would try to pass them nevertheless and if CT blocked them then the government would have real reason to deal with CT. I just think that they don't want to reveal those laws, until CT is out of the picture, because people simply wouldn't like them and even more would start defending CT.

I believe they started with this, because they want to get rid of the ugly stuff as soon as possible, so they have more time to rebuild the trust and convince the whole of society that they are right.

[Deleted]

Polish immigrants are too busy stealing cars, selling drugs, stabbing prostitutes, selling their wives, working without paying taxes and being a burden on our health care services with all the liver damage from being drunk all the time.

Malicious generalisations are fun, aren't they?

Now compare that to recorded terrorist events coming from muslim and tell me with a straight face that your post deserves to be taken seriously.

[Deleted]

Once again.. there is way more rape in Bermuda. And they got no immigrants at all. Tell me, how were the Bermudeans able to beat Sweden?

You really want to compare literally a backwater shithole of 24k population to a proper country?

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How do we compare a few million cases of stolen cars, drugs dealing and burglary with 1-2 events of terrorism?

By showing proof of those alleged million cases of stolen cars, drugs dealing and burglary... oh wait... you cant.

[Usurper]

I can't find the OP talking anything about PO. That's just template thinking. You see someone criticizing PiS and immediatelly label him as "crybaby PO or leftist shit supporter comes crying about his loser political party".

I have never seen so much disdain, bloodthirtsiness and lack of will for dialogue seeping into public discussion. And majority of it coming from supporters of the current government, further fueled by said government, who only want to steamroll over everyone else.

I am far from supporting PiS. 99.9% of Polish politicans are power/money hungry lying bastards and can eat a bullet for all I care. It just amuses me much when I see a butthurt loser who tries to sell his political view as something that matters. PO did the same thing with TK but know theyre so butthurt its very enjoyable.

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Isn't the expression "Polish Parliament" supposed to imply "a massive disorgainsed hodgepodge where nothing gets done"...

Yes very much so!

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If I understand it correctly, the gouvernment basically took control of their constitutional court, essentially fusing executive and judiciary into one. Of course the EU isn't happy about this.

I don't remember anyone crying when PO made 14 out of 15 TK judges their own :P.

[Devonitar]

What I find really sad in Poland right now is that people are very content at attaching labels to themselves. Even in everyday life, on the street, in churches, in schools, at the workplace, not to mention Facebook flamewars, people are constantly arguing defending option one and attacking option two. If anything was achieved during all these years it was dividing people (even inside families, I heard about father disowning his son, because he voted for the "option two"). No constiutional bullshit, election promises or political purges really matter for me, as country will be okay, but I'm not okay with being ostracized because of my views.

[Noradin]

It isn't illegal though is it though?

If it isn't they should have every right to do so and a new party can run on reversing the change if it is so disliked.

Unless the next thing they do is passing a law to get rid of the probability of another party ever getting into power.
(Kind of like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR9Q6q4grVM)

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All of those things are within their right to do as a nation. Unless they actively stop their people from voting or try to bar them from leaving it shouldn't be our concern.

They signed treaties with the other members of the EU promising not to do these things, thus voluntarily giving away their right to do such as a nation - as did all the other members as safeguard against some things in our past repeating and ripping apart the continent in yet another world war.

[primalmatter]

Unless the next thing they do is passing a law to get rid of the probability of another party ever getting into power.
(Kind of like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR9Q6q4grVM)

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They signed treaties with the other members of the EU promising not to do these things, thus voluntarily giving away their right to do such as a nation - as did all the other members as safeguard against some things in our past repeating and ripping apart the continent in yet another world war.

You make it sound like hilter coming to power was a bad thing.

The EU is already going to collapse its a question of when now not if. They fucked themselves royally with open boarders. All we are waiting for now is the bang the fuse is already lit.

[Usurper]

You make it sound like hilter coming to power was a bad thing.

The EU is already going to collapse its a question of when now not if. They fucked themselves royally with open boarders. All we are waiting for now is the bang the fuse is already lit.

I'm hoping the Paris attacks are the bang.

[Sarange]

Getting tired of this meme
https://www.reddit.com/r/sweden/comm...ot_as_high_as/

Its not a meme though. Norway and Denmark register rape alike to sweden and Denmark even have a decline in rapes. Sweden also have more "stranger rape" than wifes being raped through out years. Take a look at a few videos on youtube where they explain that the things you linked arent the reason for sweden is the rape capital of europe

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Doesn't matter how often you try to explain them and show them the facts, they'll keep calling Sweden the Rape Capital of the world, despite having less rape convicts / capita or just even less crime / capita than almost all western nations. Lesson to be learned from this, never change the way your nation gathers data about a crime if it inflates the number, because people will misinterpret it, and extremists will use it in their political campaigns of fear.

Yes, reddit is indeed filled with only facts.