Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[TwentyTwelve]

Why would you choose to play a DK. Dk tanks are the outright worst tank. They bring nothing of use to a raid. Which is why only 7 BDKs have logged a kill on Odyn and none have logged Guarm.

I believe in skill > class - but the only issue i see with this is honestly Cenarius/Odyn and yes i know it's good for externals to be used on BDK - the DH needs them so is it possible to do these fights without externals as a bdk?

Reason i like BDK and may even play it over paladin is simply - tank healing is dogshit and our geared holy pala has just quit.
For example - Dragons was unkillable the first 3 times unless i played DK to self heal.

[Marrilaife]

Reason i like BDK and may even play it over paladin is simply - tank healing is dogshit and our geared holy pala has just quit.

I sympathize, it seems to often be the case in lower progressed guilds, funny how all the theorycrafters always tell tanks how to maximize dps and assume healing is in place, while lower progressed tanks always have to compensate for healers who don't "heal" they just pad HPS. I never understood why cutting edge tanks say on forums "oh I was never in danger of dying" and then you go back to your guild that kills stuff a month later with 20 ilvls more and every minute is a battle for your life.

Thing is paladin can be deceptively sturdy as long as you don't follow all the gurus who play max dps game with seraphim and whatnot. I don't know if DKs have that much choice in talents, doesn't seem like it, just "take rune tap / blood mirror if cenarius", guess you could try the same for odyn.

DK to me looks like a good dungeon tank with mass grip, good aoe damage with blood boil and bonestorm, grip is useful for caster trash, etc. but for raids many of these advantages don't apply at all, Ilgynoth is the closest what we got to "add fight" where grip and mass grip add something to the strategy. Their artifact ability is also concentrated on aoe, or at least to say it's weaker if no multiple targets are present.

I can see the idea of taking DH / DK setup to self heal and compensate for mongo healers but this setup has a lot of downsides, one of it is in raids tanks don't really self heal near enough to be self sufficient, it's not MOP / WOD anymore, they made it so the self healing tanks take more damage and have less cooldowns at their disposal, so the net gain isn't that apparent.

Personally I think the fact taking a Paladin tank immediately gives you ability to cheese / skip 2 of the Odyn's spears is a good enough reason to bring it if you have them both at the ready. Oh, and you can also semi cheese another one with ardent defender since it's a cheat death.

I still don't know why Blizzard wanted to de-homogenize the classes only to add mechanics that severely disfavour some classes, not only tanks but healers too, for example Odyn is a big spit towards a Mistweaver because coccoon is kinda worthless for the spears, why not just take another resto Druid ironbark is better.

[TwentyTwelve]

Whilst i appreciate the response and i agree about if you're going for dps as a tank and dying - you're playing bad, no - The issue remains even with DMC + Arcanocrystal + Righteous protector, our holy paladin has been really toxic and not interested it seems, this is the type of guy who does the same healing on me as a resto druid.

Paladins can be sturdy but they are very reliant on healers i.m.o - I'm also not overgearing anything - i'm 874ilvl so that doesn't help at all.

I will play BDK and try it out - only concern was Odyn P3 - but i'll try rune tap i guess and see how that works, looking at mythic logs (the 7 lol), it seems like rune tap is enough on top of bone shield.

[Deleted]

I went Spec deflect when I killed it on Mythic. There isn't much healing required in the fight. So having more RP is useless. If you do die, it's from a oneshot. Rune tap and bone shield with spec deflect is enough for the early spears but later on when you can't move as far due to tornadoes you need to cycle in other CD's. Icebound, Blood Mirror, Armour pot. A BoP is amazing to have as well, we kept it aside for it a tank did die we would use it on the active tank while we got the tank that died up. A DPS or healer paladin can taunt and bubble the spear too so each paladin you have is worth a lot.

[Highwhale]

DK to me looks like a good dungeon tank with mass grip, good aoe damage with blood boil and bonestorm, grip is useful for caster trash, etc. but for raids many of these advantages don't apply at all, Ilgynoth is the closest what we got to "add fight" where grip and mass grip add something to the strategy. Their artifact ability is also concentrated on aoe, or at least to say it's weaker if no multiple targets are present.

Well i believe BDK will shine at Tichondrius fight in Nighthold.

[redfella]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sCi_8wTa9U

Blood Mirror nerf incoming?

[Jrealness]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sCi_8wTa9U

Blood Mirror nerf incoming?

I used to be the type of person who would say "nah, they had to progress to that fight before they could attempt the cheese since it wouldnt work on easier difficulties due to lack of mechanics; shit like this always pops up as people start to overgear content; blah blah blah" but now, yeah probably. Hopefully they'll just change it so it doesn't work on overkill damage and they don't actually nerf the % effect of the ability.

[Highwhale]

Blood Mirror nerf incoming?

HAHA fucking hilarious. Nice tactic and gratz! ROFL

[Deleted]

Time to nerf Blood i guess ^.^

Has someone tested the BS Changes on the ptr? Does every melee swing remove a stack? what happens if we parry?

[Deleted]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sCi_8wTa9U

Blood Mirror nerf incoming?

10/10, would watch again for hours.

[Tehr]

I wonder if Purgatory would be useful in P3 M Odyn since it allows you to be overkilled and still survive. Blood Mirror is nice because if the reciprocated damage but you won't manage good uptime in P3 because you're not tanking as the spear hits.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

if your getting overkilled by spear you are probs not gonna live through purgatory

[Tehr]

if your getting overkilled by spear you are probs not gonna live through purgatory

Three seconds to have your healers heal between zero (just barely overkilled) and three million damage (standing in and eating it) is a pretty good grace period unless your healers are garbage.

[xpire]

Three seconds to have your healers heal between zero (just barely overkilled) and three million damage (standing in and eating it) is a pretty good grace period unless your healers are garbage.

except you'd be completely at their mercy and they have other people to heal too and mechanics to do, coupled with the fact that healers can't really 0-100% in 1 heal anymore(and you don't have death pact) and you wouldn't have/use VB to bring you out faster as you'd save this for spear. Now, even if you were brought out of purg you'd probably fall over from the next point of damage you take which would be from either arcing storm, radiant smite... gl! I'd take a 20% reduction over that RNG shit any day.

[Khiyone]

except you'd be completely at their mercy and they have other people to heal too and mechanics to do, coupled with the fact that healers can't really 0-100% in 1 heal anymore(and you don't have death pact) and you wouldn't have/use VB to bring you out faster as you'd save this for spear. Now, even if you were brought out of purg you'd probably fall over from the next point of damage you take which would be from either arcing storm, radiant smite... gl! I'd take a 20% reduction over that RNG shit any day.

Please learn what RNG means; it has nothing to do with Purgatory in this situation. Lay on Hands is an example of a heal that can easily get you out of Purgatory here and you won't die right after.

[xpire]

Please learn what RNG means; it has nothing to do with Purgatory in this situation. Lay on Hands is an example of a heal that can easily get you out of Purgatory here and you won't die right after.

I think you're the one who doesn't quite grasp what RNG means here, but that's fine. Also, you can't necessarily bank on LoH to be available when you decide to go get overkilled in purg.

[Deleted]

It's just not as good as Blood Mirror. You still need to run out for it, since staying in range gives a too high of a healing absorb. So it doesn't cut down on movement. Popping rune tap for every single spear is usually enough. Maybe a Tornado or two is misplaced and you can't run as far, at which point you'd be brought into Purg with a minimal healing absorb. IF the healers were able to heal you up enough for you to not get one shot by some sort of AOE it would be okay, but if you've only got a minimal healing absorb why not just use Blood Mirror so you're never brought into purg in the first place.

Of the 34 BDK's that have killed Odyn Mythic, only 10 used Purgatory. For arguement sake I looked into every single one of these 10 to see if purg procced and if they were then healed out of it and survived. 5 people were brought into purg and died , 4 people were brought into purg and survived, 1 person didn't pop purg in the fight. So in 3/5 times the ability does absolutely nothing. At least if you died with Blood Mirror up you did some damage.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

so is doing /sit during blood mirror for bosses in 5man a bad thing to do? or do we not take the extra dmg from sitting anymore?

[Tehr]

It's just not as good as Blood Mirror. You still need to run out for it, since staying in range gives a too high of a healing absorb. So it doesn't cut down on movement. Popping rune tap for every single spear is usually enough. Maybe a Tornado or two is misplaced and you can't run as far, at which point you'd be brought into Purg with a minimal healing absorb. IF the healers were able to heal you up enough for you to not get one shot by some sort of AOE it would be okay, but if you've only got a minimal healing absorb why not just use Blood Mirror so you're never brought into purg in the first place.

Of the 34 BDK's that have killed Odyn Mythic, only 10 used Purgatory. For arguement sake I looked into every single one of these 10 to see if purg procced and if they were then healed out of it and survived. 5 people were brought into purg and died , 4 people were brought into purg and survived, 1 person didn't pop purg in the fight. So in 3/5 times the ability does absolutely nothing. At least if you died with Blood Mirror up you did some damage.

10/34 is a LOT higher percentage of players taking Purgatory than in any other content.

I think you're the one who doesn't quite grasp what RNG means here, but that's fine. Also, you can't necessarily bank on LoH to be available when you decide to go get overkilled in purg.

There's nothing related to RNG involved with Purgatory in this scenario.

[figuratively]

10/34 is a LOT higher percentage of players taking Purgatory than in any other content.



There's nothing related to RNG involved with Purgatory in this scenario.

It's late, I've been travelling, maybe my math is off. But I don't see how that can possibly be accurate. There's three options per talent row. For sake of argument, lets say the remaining 24 players are equally split between the two non-Purgatory choices. Each would still be 12/34. That's ~35%, versus the ~29% taking Purgatory in this situation.