Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[Tojara]

You can also use it and solo soak smashes on the encounter too.

[Zorachus]

Clarification the rotation per the doc, so for single target, it's Marrowrend up to 6, but don't go over that, and then HeartStrike forever, and then DeathStrike to heal, and use the Artifact Consumption spell too when need be. So where does Blood Boil come in ? Or is BB not to be used on single targets ? Or is BB needed to apply Blood Plague ?

For now on single target do I Marrowrend 2 times + Heart Strike 2 or 3 times, and then DeathStrike 1

For AOE always start with DeathnDecay 1 and then should I do BB 1, and Marrow 2, and HS 2 or 3 and then DS?

[foxshine1337]

Speaking of AMS cheese, I love it for Maiden. Popping it before Mass Instability finishes as a Light side tank is just divine.

haha, wow I didn't think you could immune that.. So far I use on small soaks KJ, and Goroth to immune burning armor.. What else is there?

[Marrilaife]

So where does Blood Boil come in ? Or is BB not to be used on single targets ? Or is BB needed to apply Blood Plague ?

If you have TOS set you need to use BB to upkeep the set bonus, if I remember correctly it's 10 seconds buff.

[Tojara]

If you have 6 stacks of bone armor you should marrowrend. Marrowrend gives 3 (4 with the trait sometimes), so you wouldn't be wasting charges if you ended up getting 4. Essentially don't go below 5 and don't use it when you have 7 or more stacks to avoid wasting potential resources.

After that it's essentially heart striking as much as you can, keeping DnD down, and never sitting on two stacks of blood boil, refreshing marrowrend only when your stacks are going to fall off or you drop to 6 stacks. Death strike is more fluid, but you will always want to use it if you're going to be wasting runic power regardless. Otherwise you use it reactionary based on damage intake, or you machine gun it back to back to get more damage out of it via the trait.

Consumption and blood drinker should also be used as soon as possible. Although consumption can and should be held onto in some circumstances if you know a lot of adds are coming, or your party can make use of the leech. Consumption leech effect, for a lot of groups (even in 20 keys) essentially means your healer can DPS for 15 seconds because your entire group is providing 200-300 HPS (ST, or double/triple that in AoE) to themselves.

[Raiz]

Clarification the rotation per the doc, so for single target, it's Marrowrend up to 6, but don't go over that, and then HeartStrike forever, and then DeathStrike to heal, and use the Artifact Consumption spell too when need be. So where does Blood Boil come in ? Or is BB not to be used on single targets ? Or is BB needed to apply Blood Plague ?

For now on single target do I Marrowrend 2 times + Heart Strike 2 or 3 times, and then DeathStrike 1

For AOE always start with DeathnDecay 1 and then should I do BB 1, and Marrow 2, and HS 2 or 3 and then DS?

Use BB ALL THE TIME. It's free, it applies Blood Plague, it does damage even in ST. There is absolutely no reason to not use it.
In a matter of priority (roughly) :
Death Strike when you have too much RP or you are about to die.
Marrowrend at 6 stack (7 is fine. Don't overdo it, you have 30% chance or something to gain an additionnal stack).
DnD followed by Heart strikes
Blooddrinker when not in DnD or when DnD is in CD.
BB.
Hearth Strikes.

Blood boil are basically a filler. When you don't have anything to cast, use it. Doesn't matter if you have 1 or 2 charges, they regen fast enough.
You always use DnD even in ST. Actually, you use the same rotation whether it's ST or aoe.
For AoE, I always use BB first especially in mythics dungeons because they do instant damage and then there are dots on all target allowing me to keep aggro. DnD does poor damage and works only if you're in it.

If you want an example of how I start the fight against ST or AoE then here it is :
DrW
BB
Marrowrend (3 times if there's no DrW, otherwise 1 time)
BB
DnD
HS (when you're in a DnD, otherwise use Blooddrinker with your 3rd rune to avoid capping ressources)
Consumption
Blooddrinker

You put a VB and DS inbetween. It depends how the fight is going really. I like to use consumption instead of DS for example when I'm facing a lot of adds and I need a good heal. Coupled with VB, it's like having a Lay on hand.
VB is really good when you use DrW + BB, as it allows you to gain a lot of shield because all your targets will get 3 times the blood plagues. But yeah, basically I use BB all the time. AoE, or ST, same sh.t.

[Deleted]

I know you are going to hate me (again? ) but marrorending at 7 is still not fine, its a potential ressource loss. ^.^

With T19 gone there are more downtimes once again, so there is really no need to marrowrend at 7. You only want to marrowrend at >= 7 stacks if BS is about to fall off.

[Raiz]

I know it's a potential loss. I'd rather see them casting rend at 7 stacks than seeing them Deathstriking at 4 stacks. You're guaranteed to lose RP by doing the latter, while the former is only a 30% chance to get the 4th stack. I'm not saying it's recommended, I'm saying it's fine. Meaning don't overdo it.

[Deleted]

I dont get the comparison of DS'ing at 4 Stacks. Its not that we drop from 7 to 4 in a second or so, this would only happen if you are rune starved. Just Marrowrend at 5 or 6 and everything is fine. Marrowrending at 7 is *really* not needed at all.

[Raiz]

We may not have the same definition of the word "fine" I guess. Fine in this context means, tolerable, manageable, not the best but not the worst either. I see a lot of beginner DKs spending runes instead of waiting for another one necessary for marrowrend. And thus, they're spending a DS at 4 stacks because they had no choices. We're talking about a guy who still doesn't fully understand how Blood should be played.
For all I know, he may be seeing that he had 7 stacks, so he's saying to himself "I'm fine, I'll wait another melee swing before using marrowrend again". And then he proceeds to use DnD, and because we're all used to spam HS just after DND, he may be completely forgeting about checking the stack again.
Don't ask me why, they're all playing like this. They may not have a good weak auras or compact runes in order to better check the stacks. It just happens.

[Tehr]

We may not have the same definition of the word "fine" I guess. Fine in this context means, tolerable, manageable, not the best but not the worst either. I see a lot of beginner DKs spending runes instead of waiting for another one necessary for marrowrend. And thus, they're spending a DS at 4 stacks because they had no choices. We're talking about a guy who still doesn't fully understand how Blood should be played.
For all I know, he may be seeing that he had 7 stacks, so he's saying to himself "I'm fine, I'll wait another melee swing before using marrowrend again". And then he proceeds to use DnD, and because we're all used to spam HS just after DND, he may be completely forgeting about checking the stack again.
Don't ask me why, they're all playing like this. They may not have a good weak auras or compact runes in order to better check the stacks. It just happens.

I don't understand your argument. If someone has played long enough to have generated a habit from Runic Decomp, they're probably not new enough to ask questions about the rotation. Anyone that is new enough is likely very impressionable - and thus telling them to only use Marrowrend at 6 or fewer stacks will mean they will likely take it to heart - and I think we as a community should be doing our best not to encourage bad habits.

[Raiz]

I don't understand your argument. If someone has played long enough to have generated a habit from Runic Decomp, they're probably not new enough to ask questions about the rotation. Anyone that is new enough is likely very impressionable - and thus telling them to only use Marrowrend at 6 or fewer stacks will mean they will likely take it to heart - and I think we as a community should be doing our best not to encourage bad habits.

Then why don't we tell them the following bad habits (assuming you have the talent Ossuary) :
- Don't DS when you have 4 stacks of boneshield
- Don't overcap BB
- Always keep charging 3+ Runes (unless for VERY specifics circumstances)
- Use marrowrend at 5-6 stacks.

Now that we see the bad habits, which one do you think has the less (edited) loss potential ? You guessed right : it's the marrowrend because it has a 30% chance ONLY to get boneshield bonus stack while the others bad habits are lost forever.
This is exactly why I'm saying it's "OK" (read not recommended) to use it for the new players because I want them to be able to use DS for its maximum survivability whenever they're in a shitty situation.

I just don't know why you're saying this is so bad like it's the worst thing to happen in the history of mankind. It can't be worse than the others bad habits, can it ?

[Deleted]

This feels like a discussion between theoretical optimal conditions and real live fight's, we all know perfectly well that there's is never an optimal situation. "shit happens". Its normal and we all know it, we got be flexible enough to adapt to it.

Theoretical what people are stating about the perfect/good habits is correct. Does that make to live? Nope, plenty of times more then i can count and their not rare where BS drops drops to 4, lets think about it, the conditions for it to happen are not very hard, and common:
-Runes are in CD
-very large string of hits from adds
-bad, constant RNG
-being far from the boss at 7-8 stacks
-CC?
-imagination(can't recall but i believe their are more)...
I would wager it's harder for the optimal conditions to always be lined up, although their far more common

So, if i say it this way, the error margin for our rotation is quite large and independent of our input. So our rotation may vary and is inconsistent enough that marrow rending from 7 stacks when in a pinch is not bad, may happen, but is detrimental none the less.

[msdos]

Since Foul Bulwark exists, there's never a reason to not Marrowrend unless you're at 8-9 stacks.

I think of it as "how long do I want to go without the extra HP to use more heart strikes?" not, "oh my god, Ossuary, resources capping, oh no i over capped, the WoW god's are going to strike me down!"
Plus you start to play differently when you get the legendary shoulders. If I'm not in danger of dying/damage spike, I'll let myself overcap for juicier Death Strikes, who cares.

[Deleted]

Since Foul Bulwark exists, there's never a reason to not Marrowrend unless you're at 8-9 stacks.

I think of it as "how long do I want to go without the extra HP to use more heart strikes?" not, "oh my god, Ossuary, resources capping, oh no i over capped, the WoW god's are going to strike me down!"
Plus you start to play differently when you get the legendary shoulders. If I'm not in danger of dying/damage spike, I'll let myself overcap for juicier Death Strikes, who cares.

No offense, but this is only true if you arent doing engaging Content, e.g. Mythic Raiding. Someone who asks for the Basic Rotation is probably not a mythic raider, but how should ppl improve their playstyle if they are told "just hit whatever you want, its meaningless anyway".

If ppl asks for Things like this we should recommand them the best theoratical basic "Rotation". Telling ppl to marrowrend at high BS stacks is just bad advise. This has nothing to do with "wow gods". If ppl care about playstyle they will use it, if not they probably wouldnt ask in the first place.

+you dont alter your playstyle with shoulders. Wasting ressources (overcapping) for "juicier" Deathstrike is an Overall Performance loss. Dont do it, and dont recommand other ppl to do it.


@Raiz:

With T19 gone there are Overall less ressources. Keeping everything rolling (BB Charges, Blooddrinker, 3 runes charing etc etc.) really isnt hard at all. Ppl Need to learn it - if they want.

[msdos]

Is +18 Mythic and above not challenging content, because I'm making these choices in these dungeons sometimes and it's not affecting my outcomes.

No one actually is saying to start Marrowrending at 8 stacks as beginner advice. What I'm saying is, Marrowrending ONCE to keep Foul Bulwark high, is not going to get you killed in ANY raid, Mythic, heroic, LFG.

I never recommended other people to over cap for juicier death strikes. Your problem is your reading comprehension. You're taking everything to heart and way too seriouisly and applying it as advice being given out because you're frustrated or something, I dunno, but please refrain from putting words in people's mouths please!
Also, you should stop talking like you're the best player in the world and only your words are meaningful, because your grammar is super atrocious, in my opinion, no one should listen to someone with grammar that bad.
People can play however they want, also.
Also, you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to "performance loss". Getting more damage out isn't a loss. But you can't comprehend that, probably has a correlation with your bad grammar.

"People need to learn it - if they want" I'm seriously questioning your intelligence after this comment. People don't need to do anything, lmao, get over yourself please. In fact, you're going on my ignore list, I can't stand people with your attitude.

[Tehr]

Let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum. Schlars is saying that when giving advice to a new or otherwise inexperienced player, you should give the correct advice so as not to give them bad habits.

Regarding "performance loss", if you alter your rotation at all besides when you have DRW active to game the Shoulder buff, you're actually doing less DPS than if you played normally. The exception I mentioned is that during DRW you want to alternate DS with Blood Boil, otherwise you'll overcap the buff. You may not think it's affecting your outcomes, but the data and math indicate that you have the potential to perform better. Sure, you're welcome to aim for a 5stack so you can get a gigantic Death Strike, but that is still a subpar DPS rotation, regardless of how satisfying it is.

And also using Marrowrend at 8-9 stacks means fewer Heart Strikes, which means fewer Death Strikes, which are the primary source of your damage.

Regarding your comment of "No one actually is saying to start Marrowrending at 8 stacks as beginner advice", you said in your previous post "Since Foul Bulwark exists, there's never a reason to not Marrowrend unless you're at 8-9 stacks", which accomplishes the same thing as saying that you should Marrowrend at 7 stacks, which is the core part that's being argued.

[Philondra]

I think another point that Schlars and Tehr is trying to make is that there is a difference between doing your job at a basic level and playing optimally. Objectively, you are losing resources by Marrowrending at 7 Bone Shield stacks (3 RP + the extra damage from Heart Strike) and by overcapping on Haemostasis stacks (20% death strike healing and damage from one lost stack). Is it going to make a major difference in your survivability? Maybe, maybe not, but if you are aiming for whatever you consider high-level content to be, then you should be trying to play optimally rather than acceptably.

Edit: Switching gears, they changed our T21 bonuses:

Death Knight T21 Blood 2P Bonus:
When a charge of Bone Shield is consumed, the cooldown of Dancing Rune Weapon is reduced by 3.0 sec.

Death Knight T21 Blood 4P Bonus:
When Dancing Rune Weapon fades, your Rune regeneration rate is increased by 15% for 10 sec.

I can really appreciate the 2 piece for sure, but the 4 piece is rather maddening. I would prefer to have the rune regeneration *during* DRW so that I can spam as much as possible.

[Tehr]

I can really appreciate the 2 piece for sure, but the 4 piece is rather maddening. I would prefer to have the rune regeneration *during* DRW so that I can spam as much as possible.

Or both, please.

[Deleted]

snap.

Englisch isnt my native language, im sorry for my bad grammer. But no Need for personal attacks.

Tehr and Philondra pretty much cleared up what im trying to say. And this has nothing to do with the Level im playing at. im probably making a lot of mistakes myself but i try to reduce them to a minimum Level.

-------

Good Thing they removed the rune reg Bonus from VB. But this is still a weird 4p.