Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[Jellospally]

Prot palas dealing 47% DPS more than BrM is alarming prepatch or not. Artifacts won't probably affect THAT much.

Thats like saying Demo locks being near the top on every fight means they aren't literally the worst spec in legion... oh wait they are.

Granted Prot Paladin is still doing way more dps than brewmaster period at 110 though. You can't just say based on current numbers that it means it will be like that in legion for everything. That is just being clueless about how the game works.

Atm paladin dominates because of their set bonus(like demo lock) and they have CDs to stack during the ring unlike the other tanks.

[Tehr]

Thats like saying Demo locks being near the top on every fight means they aren't literally the worst spec in legion... oh wait they are.

Granted Prot Paladin is still doing way more dps than brewmaster period at 110 though. You can't just say based on current numbers that it means it will be like that in legion for everything. That is just being clueless about how the game works.

Atm paladin dominates because of their set bonus(like demo lock) and they have CDs to stack during the ring unlike the other tanks.

No need to swing so low. It is an alarming observation no matter how you look at it. What you're doing is putting words into his mouth and then insulting him based on those words that he never said.

[Jellospally]

No need to swing so low. It is an alarming observation no matter how you look at it. What you're doing is putting words into his mouth and then insulting him based on those words that he never said.

I mean you can take it how you want its just how I explain shit. If people don't like it they can just not respond or just not read what I say.

I guess saying "You can't just say based on current numbers that it means it will be like that in legion for everything. That is just being clueless about how the game works." is insulting someone so bad I should just leave the forums never knew... because if anything else in there is insulting thats just sad that you interpret words that way.

[redfella]

Granted Prot Paladin is still doing way more dps than brewmaster period at 110 though. Atm paladin dominates because of their set bonus and they have CDs to stack during the ring unlike the other tanks.

Very true, but my meaning was that 47% looks like a bit too large of a difference. Even if we took out ring and set bonuses from the equation, Protadins are still be ahead by a marging at 110 (at least judging from beta). I consider the gap too wide, but tuning is still happending so we'll see how it ends up being. That said, I'm not too confident in the tuning because of the kneejerk buffing/nerfing that's taken place during the past month has been laughable at best. It's my hope that the tanks would be relatively on the same level DPS-wise, but excel a bit in different encounters mitigationwise to give a bit flavor, but not too much to make some unfit for cutting edge progress -- e.g. seems a bit like like 5 man-prowess brought a lot of nerfs to DH that put them at a disadvantage come Mythic Raids, while they still are very good for M+ dungeons.

Thats like saying Demo locks being near the top on every fight means they aren't literally the worst spec in legion... oh wait they are.

What you're doing is putting words into his mouth and then insulting him based on those words that he never said.

I don't mind harsh language on the internet, and I didn't consider what you said insulting, but Tehr brings out a valid point still: You shouldn't go out of your way to be uncivil, nor should you try to pull out strawmen where there aren't any.

[Zorish]

people can someone correct me again - Bone shield internal CD is 1 second or 2? With blue post if you can, cause i can't find it

[Tehr]

I mean you can take it how you want its just how I explain shit. If people don't like it they can just not respond or just not read what I say.

I guess saying "You can't just say based on current numbers that it means it will be like that in legion for everything. That is just being clueless about how the game works." is insulting someone so bad I should just leave the forums never knew... because if anything else in there is insulting thats just sad that you interpret words that way.

That entire quoted sentence is a strawman argument because he never said that, and then you're insinuating that he's clueless about how the game works to top it off.

Why do you phrase everything to be as rude as possible? It's completely uncalled for. All you had to say was "Blizzard doesn't really care about pre-patch balance, so they're focusing on 110 Legion balance,". That would have accomplished exactly the same thing except you wouldn't have made yourself look like an asshole.

Look at these two examples, and think about which you would rather read. Both say almost exactly the same thing:

Taking into account balancing at a maximum scaling situation at level 100 is important because it gives you a glimpse into balance at the maximum scaling situation at level 110; scaling issues that exist now aren't going to disappear on their own.

Refusing to acknowledge data because they don't share everything with other data is being clueless about how data itself works, and assuming that scaling issues presenting themselves at level 100 will solve themselves in the future is naive at best.

[Deleted]

It makes me sad that me lvl 60 tank warri has so much more mobility, def cds, more flashy rotation and even offensive cds than my beloved blood dk main. I tried my tank pala at 100 and damn, even the paladin has so much more variety in their kit, even though i dislike some of it personally at the moment, still fun.

We are lacking so many CDs compared to other classes, the little cds we have are 200% longer than other tanks, we are slow and bound to stay in place.

My humble opinion which would've been nice is something like make Death and Decay a field around the DK. Make it spread on the ground while you stand still (ramps up), so we could still be mobile to some level. Compared to the paladin (no recourses, cd only class) and warri (some stuff free/very cheap) and druid that i just tried today (hated it pre patch, now it feels smoother but i am only lvl 60 with it) i really feel like we are just missing 2-3 buttons... every tank class has so many more!

- Dancing Runeweapon - CD is too long compared to other tank class CDs. 2 min would be okay too.
- Death and Decay - Make it "movable" to get rid of problems
- Mobility - One skill would be nice. One "gap closer". I hate derping behind the party in dungeons while they just all move faster everywhere...
- Boneshield - Atm it feels sometimes like a double edged sword. If you would try to keep 5 stacks up you miss out on runic power from heart strike and more death strike healing... the fact that in larger mob groups having 1 stack only and heart strike + healing your way out says it all. i personally dislike all the 58 talents...

i hope they change some stuff around and make us shine again. maybe the artifact will change stuff.

[Philondra]

- Boneshield - Atm it feels sometimes like a double edged sword. If you would try to keep 5 stacks up you miss out on runic power from heart strike and more death strike healing... the fact that in larger mob groups having 1 stack only and heart strike + healing your way out says it all.

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post, but I'd like to dispel this Bone Shield myth.

Whether you keep Bone Shield at one stack or nine for the duration of a the fight, the amount of Marrowrends you have to use doesn't vary at all behind the initial one or two you use at the beginning of the fight. Your Bone Shields will still be consumed at the same rate, so you'll still have to use the same number of maintenance Marrowrends throughout the fight, and the initial Marrowrends become less and less important the longer a fight stretches on.

If you don't like using those Marrowrends at the beginning of a fight, just pop DRW and Marrowrend twice. You'll be at 10 stacks and thus will only have to worry about the maintenance Marrowrends throughout the fight.

[Sinzaram]

people can someone correct me again - Bone shield internal CD is 1 second or 2? With blue post if you can, cause i can't find it

Let me google that for you.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=blood+dk+bone+shield+icd+blue+post

And its the first one on that front page of google.

[Jellospally]

Very true, but my meaning was that 47% looks like a bit too large of a difference. Even if we took out ring and set bonuses from the equation, Protadins are still be ahead by a marging at 110 (at least judging from beta). I consider the gap too wide, but tuning is still happending so we'll see how it ends up being. That said, I'm not too confident in the tuning because of the kneejerk buffing/nerfing that's taken place during the past month has been laughable at best. It's my hope that the tanks would be relatively on the same level DPS-wise, but excel a bit in different encounters mitigationwise to give a bit flavor, but not too much to make some unfit for cutting edge progress -- e.g. seems a bit like like 5 man-prowess brought a lot of nerfs to DH that put them at a disadvantage come Mythic Raids, while they still are very good for M+ dungeons.

Ya I have no faith in them to get tuning any closer than it alrdy is atm.

DH 100% got nerfed because of their M+ 5 many abilities. Which is pretty retarded. They should never balance around that. Now they are basically crap for raids it feels from the last few tests.

Bear never really was amazing at damage outside decent 5 man aoe.

DK has been all over and atm is in a high dmg spot.

Pally has been near top dps the whole time with practically no game play.

Warrior(can't really say much but ive seen/heard they aren't high dmg dealers).

Monk... has been going downhill if thats even possible for no reason.

Literally makes no sense... but neither does half the shit that has been done to classes so far for the reasons of #classfantasy(ps no one cares they just want fun rotations and a reason to pay attention to more than 2 buttons).

[Highwhale]

Correct me if i'm wrong:

Our 1st priority stat is critical strike - it gives parry and damage (can DS heal crit?) i'm also admitted what food buff what boosted our main bonus stat before pre patch (Multistrike) now buffs crit.

2nd priority stat is haste - rune regeneration. Plus some good tanking trinkets gives haste.

PS Mastery is garbage because blood shield was nerfed and versatility... idk if it boosted damage reduction at same rate as damage output.

PS Blood should be top dps tank - we lack mobility and utility in raids. And after all we use 2H not some 1h+shield or claws/fists.

[redfella]

Haste > Crit > Vers = Mastery

Haste is the best survival stat (and sometimes best for DPS too, second best at worst).

Crit is sometimes the best DPS stat (situationally, depends on a few talent picks, tier bonuses and trinkets).

Vers and Mastery are mediocre but not atrocious, so you don’t need to avoid them like the plague.

Remember that ilvl will usually win out over ‘correct stats’ since Strength and Stamina are worth a lot.

You should gem and enchant haste.

Use Stoneskin Gargoyle on your weapon for survival or Fallen Crusader for a little more DPS or very trivial content where the heal is significant relative to damage intake.

Either Vers or Strength pre pots are fine. (Vers is the old armour potion)

Stamina vs Strength flask is a choice between survival and DPS.

[Sparkii]

Is there a good way to mitigate burst you take when you first pull?

I am not well geared and I am mostly just trying out different tanks in timewalking dungeons but I find that I am getting spiked at the start of the pull because I have little to no runic power and I am in the process of stacking my boneshield.

Are you guys finding yourselves having to really focus on slowing yourself down as you play or is this just my lack of haste?

[Kaluna]

Haste > Crit > Vers = Mastery

Would you mind explain it a bit more please ?
The troxism's explanation is very very light and hard to understand why.

I would appreciate it, thanks!

[Deleted]

- Dancing Runeweapon - CD is too long compared to other tank class CDs. 2 min would be okay too.
- Death and Decay - Make it "movable" to get rid of problems
- Mobility - One skill would be nice. One "gap closer". I hate derping behind the party in dungeons while they just all move faster everywhere...
- Boneshield - Atm it feels sometimes like a double edged sword. If you would try to keep 5 stacks up you miss out on runic power from heart strike and more death strike healing... the fact that in larger mob groups having 1 stack only and heart strike + healing your way out says it all. i personally dislike all the 58 talents...

DRW is not our main defensive cd, and is still a shorter cd than other shield walls.
by problems you mean punishment for poor play i guess
we have 'one skill', it's called wraith walk
boneshield has been addressed by another guy

as for the 200% longer cds than any other tank idk what to say, vamp blood is 1.5min baseline and has a way shorter cd in practice.

[Milocow]

DRW is not our main defensive cd, and is still a shorter cd than other shield walls.
by problems you mean punishment for poor play i guess
we have 'one skill', it's called wraith walk
boneshield has been addressed by another guy

as for the 200% longer cds than any other tank idk what to say, vamp blood is 1.5min baseline and has a way shorter cd in practice.

no DRW is 3min cd

[Jellospally]

Would you mind explain it a bit more please ?
The troxism's explanation is very very light and hard to understand why.

I would appreciate it, thanks!

Haste = More Runes > More RP > More DS per minute.
Crit = Less Bone Shield charges used > More HS > More DS per minute.
Mastery = Bigger Blood Shields > well thats about it.
Vers = Less damage taken / More healing done > yep....

- - - Updated - - -

no DRW is 3min cd

And every other tanks Shield Walls are 4/5 minutes.... How is 3 not shorter than 4 and 5? Math is fucking hard.

DRW is a pos ignore it cd use it on aoe for damage and happens to be alright-ish for reduction mainly because you can parry and not lose BS charges for more HS into DS.

Also our Artifact buffs Vamp Blood to 45/45 which easily has 40-50% uptime in general and if you get the legendary belt it will practically always have 100% uptime. All the other tanks CDs are basically just stuck at 4/5m cd. Pally can reduce theirs with their legendary but no where near enough to even get it more than like 1m off its 5m CD. Lets not even talk about w/e the fuck a monk is. Druids don't even need their CDs so who cares. Warriors can probably get their CD cut by ~1m depending on Shield Slam procs off Devastate. DH just gain mitigation through their legendaries from other skills not buffing their CD.

Meanwhile I will casually take 45% more healing and have somewhat close to a Bears HP. I will take that over having to use CDs with random cooldowns once you get your legendaries.

And really when a class has LESS cooldowns to work with and not even % DR ones and can do content equal to better than those with them... I see 0 issue with that.

[redfella]

And every other tanks Shield Walls are 4/5 minutes.... How is 3 not shorter than 4 and 5? Math is fucking hard.

BrM Fort. Brew is 5min but in reality, as abilities shorten it's CD, it's about 3min.

DRW is a pos ignore it cd use it on aoe for damage and happens to be alright-ish for reduction mainly because you can parry and not lose BS charges for more HS into DS.

I don't think that an ability that reduces melee damage taken by 40% is garbage in heavy AA damage situations (big pulls for example). You'll want to DRW for damage there anyway, but reducing white damage by 40% during it makes it a defensive cooldown as well, just not something anyone should ever try to rely on, RNG will fuck you sooner or later. TL;DR; DRW is a DPS cooldown and probable mitigation. Sometimes it might keep you alive, but never rely on it.

..when a class has LESS cooldowns to work with and not even % DR ones and can do content equal to better than those with them... I see 0 issue with that.

I see 0 issues with that, in fact I see it as a big upside.

[figuratively]

Haste = More Runes > More RP > More DS per minute.
Crit = Less Bone Shield charges used > More HS > More DS per minute.
Mastery = Bigger Blood Shields > well thats about it.
Vers = Less damage taken / More healing done > yep....

- - - Updated - - -



And every other tanks Shield Walls are 4/5 minutes.... How is 3 not shorter than 4 and 5? Math is fucking hard.

DRW is a pos ignore it cd use it on aoe for damage and happens to be alright-ish for reduction mainly because you can parry and not lose BS charges for more HS into DS.

Also our Artifact buffs Vamp Blood to 45/45 which easily has 40-50% uptime in general and if you get the legendary belt it will practically always have 100% uptime. All the other tanks CDs are basically just stuck at 4/5m cd. Pally can reduce theirs with their legendary but no where near enough to even get it more than like 1m off its 5m CD. Lets not even talk about w/e the fuck a monk is. Druids don't even need their CDs so who cares. Warriors can probably get their CD cut by ~1m depending on Shield Slam procs off Devastate. DH just gain mitigation through their legendaries from other skills not buffing their CD.

Meanwhile I will casually take 45% more healing and have somewhat close to a Bears HP. I will take that over having to use CDs with random cooldowns once you get your legendaries.

And really when a class has LESS cooldowns to work with and not even % DR ones and can do content equal to better than those with them... I see 0 issue with that.

Has there been any discussion by Blizzard about how common those legendaries are going to be? I hadn't gotten the impression that every player gets one the way every player gets a cloak or a ring.

[deeeathbringr]

Has there been any discussion by Blizzard about how common those legendaries are going to be? I hadn't gotten the impression that every player gets one the way every player gets a cloak or a ring.

I think somewhere blizzard said that NH was tuned assuming every player has one, so it seems like everyone should get at least one eventually.