Season of Discovery Hotfixes - 29 April
Season of Discovery Hotfixes - April 29
Notable Differences Between Cataclysm Classic 4.4.0 and Original Cataclysm 4.0.3a
Did Blizzard just hotfix an ilvl requirement onto Awakened LFR?
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And removing raid difficulties and making the 'mythic' difficulty be the standard would achieve the same effect. As for 'the most difficult raid' being a "powerful incentive", it's no longer like that. YouTube is a thing, and if you couldn't raid in those difficulties, you could still 'see' the content today, by going to YouTube, as there are players who record their fights, the cutscenes, etc. Making only one raid difficulty nowadays is unfeasible and quite detrimental to the game, as simply "raiding for raiding's sake" is no longer a worthwhile 'reward'.Originally Posted by Garian
Vanilla is gone. It's been gone for ten years. The vanilla 'model' just wouldn't work today. Blizzard's goal is to be as inclusive as possible, to get as many players to experience content, and the vanilla 'model' is detrimental to that ideal. Catch-up mechanisms are necessary to allow such ideal to happen. And people wearing 'tier 1' while players wore 'tier 2' is not exactly a good thing.It worked great in vanilla. No one was being forced to play the game. Gear *lasted*. People could use tier 1 while players wore tier 2, and still be more powerful than someone in tier 0.
You just said a whole lot of nothing, there. You gave no examples of possible rewards whatsoever, only vague, undefined 'definitions'. You know what falls in that 'definition'? The legendary cloak. The legendary ring.What I would do is create powerful rewards that can be used in all aspects of the game and make them last a long time. That would help. People would be more willing to remain if there were worthwhile lasting rewards that aren't replaced in a month.
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2016-02-11, 03:15 AM #701Banned
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2016-02-11, 03:24 AM #702Titan
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That says a lot about how much you know about different countries bro, sure it doesn't happen anymore. It has nothing to do with it being "AQ geared tank", its more about a person who decided to play a tank and had to be carried because raid needs a bot to spam sunder on boss. There are also (sic!) multiple tanks for a raid, and people flipping over a gear piece is not exactly new or crazy thing, especially with inflated tank ego. Originally Posted by Lobosan
Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
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2016-02-11, 03:38 AM #703Elemental Lord
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So why bring back Vanilla servers for the bottom 1%, a chunk of which may who may not even want to pay a sub fee to play when there are perfectly viable options elsewhere? Pointing out the good aspects of Vanilla isn't going to magically bring every Vanilla player who left back to classic servers. Some people will play for the novelty, some people will stay for the community, but overall it caters to a niche-within-a-niche of players that is akin to making 'Mythic Only servers' on a separate sub fee. Originally Posted by Garian
Originally Posted by Teriz
Originally Posted by Talen
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2016-02-11, 04:50 AM #704Mechagnome
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8+ Months at the end of Cataclysm with no Content Originally Posted by Thimagryn
14+ Months at the end of MoP with no Content
We are currently at almost 8 months in WoD with no content and the next expansion isn't even in beta yet.
I'm so glad that Blizzard is focusing all those resources on new content. I have no idea how they could possibly find the time to create classic servers.
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2016-02-11, 05:24 AM #705Titan
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Jacob perhaps you can explain for us how going back to Vanilla is going to advance development of the game, or, for that matter, speed up the delivery of new content during the content droughts. Originally Posted by Jacob6875
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2016-02-11, 06:27 AM #706Legendary!
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Yes, they're all just sitting in their cubicles playing Candy Crush. LOL. More conspiracy theory - they can make vanilla servers - they're just too lazy! And they're denying you on purpose! Originally Posted by Jacob6875
Yeah. That's it. That's what they're doing.
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2016-02-11, 07:04 AM #707Elemental Lord
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You understand that even Vanilla had no content too right? Considering raiding was for the elite top, Naxx patch literally had nothing to do for most players aside from getting hand-me-out gear from the quest areas. And that didn't last that long. I was unsubbed for large chunks of both Vanilla and TBC due to waiting for content to become accessible. There was little-to-no content for a lot of people, the only thing it had going for it was the arbitrary length it took to level up. Originally Posted by Jacob6875
Originally Posted by Teriz
Originally Posted by Talen
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2016-02-11, 07:33 AM #708Spam Assassin!
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It's perfectly reasonable to think that if there was money to be made on the idea that Blizzard would look into it, gauge the demand, calculate the costs per month and make a decision. I presume you will stipulate that where there's a profit Blizzard would make a pass at what it would take. It doesn't take a Rhodes scholar to think that if they do it for free (as part of the normal subscription) you could estimate how many subscriptions they would gain from it and how long they might stay. You can also make a decent guess as to how many would pay for it as a separate service. That's what market research is after all. Unless you are now speculating that they haven't done any of that in this case. I would disagree with that. I think they have and the numbers didn't add up. Originally Posted by Brandon138
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Did you happen to notice that it doesn't make any sense to be complaining about no new content while at the same time wanting something that isn't new content either? Originally Posted by Jacob6875
"...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."
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2016-02-11, 08:03 AM #709The Patient
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It would be more a way for people like me who prefer the older design philosophy to not have to be forced to eat the current one. At least I could sequester myself on a Vanilla server and ignore what's going on in current WoW if they opened legacy servers. I'd gladly pay the cost, I'd even be willing to drop 20 a month on it. I also feel I should point out that while a number of people play emulated servers because they're free, a lot of people also DON'T play them because they're afraid Blizzard will ban their accounts or do not know about them. In fact on the server I play my guild leader and an officer who is friends with him didn't even know about emulated realms until they began on our server and they play Vanilla more than current WoW (Both downed Mythic Archimonde and I do have their armory profiles though I won't link them for obvious reasons, I'd rather them not get harassed just to prove a point that people do legitimately prefer Vanilla.) Originally Posted by Seranthor
Though you want to talk about "Content droughts"? Do you know why they seem to exist more now than they did in Vanilla? Simple, because back then Blizzard realized guilds progressed at different rates and as such they could make new raids like AQ40 when guilds were still struggling in MC or BWL and aim it at the people who have cleared BWL. It also gave the players in MC another carrot to chase. I think only like 20-30 guilds even downed Kel'thuzad before TBC. How many players playing have downed Archimonde in some capacity? Almost everyone. So obviously when the content is spoonfed to you, you'll feel like no content exists because you didn't have to work to get to the boss or to kill the boss so you burn through a new raid in maybe two weeks. I mean when Dragon Soul launched my guild had that down first week or maybe it was the second then we pushed for heroics. A lot of people were fine to just to normal and rest on that, though then they were the ones crying of "No new raids wtf!"
Content Droughts until Cataclysm only really happened for the top players. For as many people like to pull "BC had Illidan out for over a year!" How many of them actually even saw Illidan before that point? I got him down shortly before Sunwell came, so for a boss that was in the game since I think May or June of 2007, I didn't get to see him until somewhere early 2008. Illidan was released just as my guild was getting ready to go into tier 5. Let that sit on your mind, tier 6 was complete and in the game when guilds were just now going into tier 5.
The issue is Blizzard adopted a philosophy of "You shouldn't have to bother with the older raids!" and basically shoves you into the latest raid upon hitting max level, this is detrimental to the health of the game because you don't enforce the older content or make it appealing (weaker gear) so people won't do it. Then you offer multiple difficulties which while a good idea, is also hazardous. People feel downing the fight in LFR is the same as downing it on normal or heroic and as far as they care, they saw the game and DO NOT STRIVE TO ADVANCE HIGHER. When I wanted C'thun dead, I put in effort with my guild and we eventually saw C'thun fall to us, we didn't get the option to see a C'thun with no mechanics, kill it, get weaker gear and have the game basically try to sell us "You killed C'thun!" as if we were equals to guilds on our server like Team Ice or Blood Legion.
So when you force people into the latest raid, as far as they see there is one relevant raid in the game, that means their perception of the available content is a lot lower and in most cases it is because you're only required to go into older raids for the ring, which is doable by afking in the LFR. If you required players to actually do the older content to progress you give them the illusion of more content. Is there really more content? No, but you're requiring older content and people to see all of it so they feel like there's more to the game than questing and HFC with Tanaan grinding for gear to enter HFC.
Burning Crusade before attunement removal had a system of staircase progression, you did tier 4, you were rewarded with tier 5, which rewarded you with access to tier 6. This makes perfect sense because if you couldn't do the fights in tier 4, you weren't going to stand a chance in Black Temple or even Hyjal. You got stronger as a player, and as a guild and would conquer harder challenges. Now that's been removed because of some clickers throwing a hissy fit. So now they're all in HFC without any clue what to do, and instead of "Maybe I should improve" their immediate response is the content being overtuned and Blizzard ends up nerfing it to satisfy these players who are doing content that is beyond their ability. Just because you can enter something doesn't mean you're ready for it. If however you progress toward it then you know you're ready for it.
I could keep going and talking about the devaluing of the sense of achievement and all the other negatives associated, but for your sake I won't.Last edited by VinylScratch; 2016-02-11 at 08:22 AM.
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2016-02-11, 08:48 AM #710Titan
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Thing is while you treasure the attunments and whatnot from days past, Blizzard sees them as impediments to getting people into raiding... It's quite clear from what Blizzard has said and what they have done that raiding is no longer going to be the playground of the 1-5%, In order for them to justify their raid budget they have to get a higher number of people into raiding. Originally Posted by VinylScratch
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2016-02-11, 09:08 AM #711Legendary!
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Ofcourse there won't. Blizzard isnt making new content for you to just stick with the same old.
if a vanilla classic server made as little as 1 person not buy the next expansion they are losing on it.
Also. What made vanilla good, blizzard cant give you that. It was the community and the friends you made. The game itself was rather wank compared to now.
I played from the release in february 2005 in europe. Ive been there since its started. Ive been through all raids and even in a server first guild in vanilla wow. We did chtun as more or less the only guild on our server before naxx came out.
There are so many things that are better now. And some that are worse, yes, but not many.
The best thing about the whole vanilla wow and the only thing i miss. Was the people i got to know.
If they released a classic server now. a verry few would play there. Some would try and not even a month would pass by before they where back to regular servers.
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2016-02-11, 10:00 AM #712DeletedI strongly disagree and I play vanilla every day.Also. What made vanilla good, blizzard cant give you that. It was the community and the friends you made. The game itself was rather wank compared to now.
What is good about retail? Really?
Do LFR, sit in you garrison and do dailies? Or even worse, raid mythic and wipe on a boss for hours and hours and kill it for the 4th time, yay...
Over 100k accounts and 10k players online at once on <snip>, usually 6-12k players 24/7. Imagine how many would play if Blizzard had stable servers and people would not be FORCED to play on private servers. They just opened a second server and there is a lot of discussions about how full the server is...a verry few would play there.
It brings tears to my eyes every time I visit Ironforge and it takes like 5min to load all charters as there are hundreds of players there at all times. The world is packed with players so it can be terrible and amazing to do quests. I mean World pvp happen aaaaall the time. When do you ever see that on retail?
If blizzard opened a vanilla, tbc and maybe even a wotlk, people like me could pay subscription and play the game even after we get tired of linear crappy retail.
I would give Vanilla WoW 9/10 and Retail 2/10 as a GAME.Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2016-02-11 at 10:10 AM.
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2016-02-11, 10:04 AM #713Legendary!
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And how many of those do you think would stick around when they had to pay for it ? hardly any Originally Posted by Hugagug
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2016-02-11, 10:10 AM #714DeletedI have often asked this question in guild. And I have never heard anyone say they would leave if they had to pay, on the contraery. I mean today we are FORCED to play vanilla for free, lol... Originally Posted by glowpipe
I am more amazed that people pay to play retail actually. I would pay to play vanilla in a heartbeat.
Why do you even think people would NOT pay vanilla if they had to pay? Maybe less Chinese players would wanna pay and maybe less Australians that get terrible lag as the server is in EU.
Do you really think people join a (for some people) laggy private server because it's free? Serioulsy? I have never heard anyone doing that because it's free. They do it because they love the game.
In the end I can really just talk for myself. I want to pay for games I play. I don't want to play on a private server. I love vanilla, I love TBC and I want to pay for it and play on Blizzards servers.Last edited by mmoc0bb797734f; 2016-02-11 at 10:25 AM.
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2016-02-11, 10:29 AM #715The Patient
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Originally Posted by Seranthor
You completely and utterly missed my point and in this somehow proved mine. When raiding required dedication to actually down the fights we had low participation, 1-5% as you put it. I could even argue with that point of how it only shows that now a majority of the raiders are only willing to stick around when things are easy enough that they can do it with no effort. Kinda like the people who are hyped to play on a specific Vanilla server when it gains 7x rates here in a week or two. If they're not willing to put in the time when it's difficult or even just tedious, it speaks a lot about their dedication and makes them less desirable to progress alongside. Tell me, as an employer would you hire the guy who shows up consistently come Hell or high water or the guy who gives you the impression that they really don't care and when difficulty rears its head they're nowhere to be seen? You might get a kick out of this but when I worked in a convenience store (Shitty job I know) my then manager actually played WoW and noticed I had listed it on my application under "hobbies". My job interview for the most part was actually inquiry about my opinions of WoW which basically was akin to this exact scenario and I guess my opinions left a positive feeling because I was hired pretty much on the spot.
When they made raiding completely easy and accessible to everyone the complaints not only increased over "difficulty of bosses" as well as raid participation. Don't you see the issue? Some of us LIKE that form of dedication and we want these servers as a way to go back to that. It's very clear the current playerbase is going to throw every excuse in the book to prevent the game present from going to this model. Though I'd also like to point out, even with this limited raid participation, why pray tell were subscriber numbers increasing? Surely if all you had to do at the end was arena, or raid there'd have been fewer players right?
I mean come on, more players participating in the raids should surely lead to record subscriber numbers right? Let's take a look and. . . oh. . . well this is awkward. No, what happened was you not only drove away your veterans who prefer the old methods, you catered to a bunch of fickle people who aren't even willing to stick around and why should they? I mean the game was just kinda handed to them. It's like when you're a kid and you get things, if you're used to receiving gifts you don't really cherish it as much as if you worked to buy it. However when you actually work for the money and buy it yourself it's so much more satisfying to you. My computer is an example of that, before I used the one my father got me as a gift and don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the computer in my teens but it will never have the same sentimental value to me as my current computer I built from parts I worked for to buy. Since every time I use it the fact that I worked for hours, budgeted and saved is in my mind somewhere and it makes it that much more satisfying for me to use. Though I guess most WoW players will never understand the meaning behind this.
Also here's the thing, participation doesn't always mean a good thing. Sure, Blizzard upped the participation rates on raids, while they've been hemorrhaging subscribers ever since they've made this move. You'd have to be incredibly fucking stupid to not notice a relation between these two things. The common WoW player is a dog begging for a bar of chocolate. It thinks it wants it, then when it gets given what it wants it becomes bloated and sick.
Let Blizzard run their game into the ground with shitty design choices, I don't really care. However allow those of us with the desire to enjoy what made the game great in the first place have that in some form. Sorry but "Lol you have mythic raiding though!" doesn't cut it. Hell I wouldn't mind mirrored servers even without things like LFD or LFR that were single difficulty progression fights of between heroic and mythic level or even just mythic level.
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How many people you think don't play private servers because they either: Originally Posted by glowpipe
1) Don't know of their existence.
2) Are afraid that Blizzard will ban them for playing them.
3) Since they're not Blizzard hosted the possibility of them one day just "poof" gone is present. I mean a very popular WoW private server after a few years decided to force the server to go into 2.4 from 1.12 when it was 1.12 for quite a few years. I want to say like six years actually, I remember reading about the server when WOLK was ongoing. That move alone made their community take a massive blow and I know of about 30 people who recently migrated to the emulated realm I play just because of that decision.
P.S - I've been playing on emulated realms since TBC was in beta before I got an actual beta invite. I've openly admitted on the Blizzard forums to playing them since about 2008 and I have yet to be banned or receive any punishment by Blizzard while posting on my main account.Last edited by VinylScratch; 2016-02-11 at 11:04 AM.
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2016-02-11, 10:29 AM #716Titan
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Participation in this case IS good, why? because withOUT it you wont HAVE RAID CONTENT... Get it? Originally Posted by VinylScratch
As far as your cherished Vanilla, you'll get it when someone convinces Blizzard thru facts that it will be profitable enough for them to do, and it wont happen a second sooner, and thusfar since the campaign for vanilla/throwback/classic servers started more than 5 years ago you've all utterly failed at proving it to Blizzard. So you languish on forums begging like dogs for a bar of chocolate.Last edited by Seranthor; 2016-02-11 at 10:36 AM.
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2016-02-11, 10:31 AM #717Titan
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The only reason "content droughts" exist is because of improved community compared to vanilla. Everything now is datamined, and all strategies are available to public (not to just guild forum like it used to be, where guilds deliberately lied about their strategy to slow down progression of others) Originally Posted by VinylScratch
Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
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2016-02-11, 10:39 AM #718Legendary!
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This is exactly the thing, once you have leveled a character through once (Pre Cataclysm of course when everything was pretty much how it was since vanilla) there is no real point after that.. And so very true that feeling of exploring a new world is long gone there is no way to get that feeling of wonder back again.. Originally Posted by Tharkkun
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2016-02-11, 11:14 AM #719The Patient
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Uhm, not even close. Content droughts are happening because Blizzard is designing raids on four difficulties with one of them being basically completely for that 1% who want to be the absolute best. Though raid finder, normal and heroic difficulties are designed around being doable for even the worst of players. It has nothing to do with "we're superior players" dude don't even try to sell me that line of bullshit. I see people STILL backpeddling, sitting in fire or pulling ridiculously low damage for their gear level even in heroic mode. Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor
Blizzard now is designing raids easy enough to be done within a couple weeks for the worst of players and expecting it to last in a week. Want me to prove this point with one scenario we all probably dealt with? LFR Molten Core for the 10th year anniversary. Ideally these "uber skilled" players should have steam rolled such an easy raid right? Tell that to the people who didn't know what decurse was, wiped on Garr because they mongoloided the boss past 50% with adds in the raid, tried to "cleave Golemagg down with his dogs", melee who didn't know they could outrange the aoe knockback on Ragnaros. . . It was a nightmare with Molten Core which even in Vanilla was a joke of a raid. If that raid was something like AQ40 I guarantee you no group would have cleared it without there being 30 players of a guild carrying them. I mean if these raids are "sooooo hard" why is it that with full pvp gear (WoD season 1 epics) I three shot Blackhand Heroic without having even seen the fight and my only explanation was Shift+J? The fights aren't harder in WoD, they're significantly easier and you can tell they were designed for chimps at a desk.
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2016-02-11, 11:18 AM #720Where is my chicken!
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