FnB vs. Havoc

[Nomednil]

Hello,

I read the guides and many pages of the Fix my DPS thread, but I can't figure out a few things.

I understand that Immolate/Conflag/Incinerate are used to generate embers and the bulk of DPS comes from Havoc...literally havoc more. I got that.

I just don't understand when to use Havoc vs. when to use FnB, and how to effectively use FnB.

I couldn't find much after searching through the threads, so I was hoping some of the more experienced locks could go a little more in depth on the play style or point me to somewhere that I can go to do more research.

Any help is much appreciated.

[Netherspark]

Fire & Brimstone if 4-5 or more targets (assuming you have Charred Remains). The bulk of your damge, AOE or otherwise is Chaos Bolt. Havoc should be used whenever F&B isn't.

With F&B, build up 3 embers via Incinerate/Conflagrate, cast Chaos Bolt, then repeat until you have less than 4 enemies. The 'rotation' is generally Conflagrate>Chaos Bolt>Incinerate>Chaos Bolt>Repeat. If you don't have enough targets to maintain your embers, use Havoc.

I wouldn't bother using Immolate with F&B unless there's 6+ enemies that are going to llive for at least half of its duration. Personally I barely use it at all unless there's shitloads of enemies.

Put simply Havoc is for cleaving 2 targets, F&B is for full AOE.

[Fabinas]

Just to add that Havoc has it's usefulness in AoE situations when one enemy is below 20% and the rest aren't. Havoc one target, blow 3 Shadowburns on the >20% target. You'll get embers back to resume FnB, if needed. No need to toggle FnB as well.

[Kalmakk]

Just to add that Havoc has it's usefulness in AoE situations when one enemy is below 20% and the rest aren't. Havoc one target, blow 3 Shadowburns on the >20% target. You'll get embers back to resume FnB, if needed. No need to toggle FnB as well.

You can even do this on short lived adds if you have Havoc on the boss and are able to pick off individual adds with the SB's. Just cycle each add as it dies. Even if a single SB doesn't kill it, the constant chain of deaths will fuel almost endless embers until they all die. Takes some practice and inherent knowledge of how much hp the mobs have at the 20% mark to pull off accurately though.

[Nomednil]

Fire & Brimstone if 4-5 or more targets (assuming you have Charred Remains). The bulk of your damge, AOE or otherwise is Chaos Bolt. Havoc should be used whenever F&B isn't.

With F&B, build up 3 embers via Incinerate/Conflagrate, cast Chaos Bolt, then repeat until you have less than 4 enemies. The 'rotation' is generally Conflagrate>Chaos Bolt>Incinerate>Chaos Bolt>Repeat. If you don't have enough targets to maintain your embers, use Havoc.

I wouldn't bother using Immolate with F&B unless there's 6+ enemies that are going to llive for at least half of its duration. Personally I barely use it at all unless there's shitloads of enemies.

Put simply Havoc is for cleaving 2 targets, F&B is for full AOE.

Thanks for all of the replies, I appreciate it.

So I'm assuming it would be optimal to go into aoe situations with embers already that way you don't have to build them up with incinerate/conflag?

For instance, on HFA, would you just try to have near capped embers for each wave and then FnB CB, havoc + SB afterwards?

[Deleted]

Thanks for all of the replies, I appreciate it.

So I'm assuming it would be optimal to go into aoe situations with embers already that way you don't have to build them up with incinerate/conflag?

For instance, on HFA, would you just try to have near capped embers for each wave and then FnB CB, havoc + SB afterwards?

HFA you should be swimming in embers and not to mention lucky if you get an AoE "rotation" off. :P

To answer your question, you should always try and enter and AoE situation with 3+ embers.
Also i try and enter a sustained AoE situation with 2x stacks of BackDraft so i can smoothly do the CB > INC > CB > INC > CB

Havoc you should judge when adds will start to reach <20% so you can precast on the high health target.

[Netherspark]

Thanks for all of the replies, I appreciate it.

So I'm assuming it would be optimal to go into aoe situations with embers already that way you don't have to build them up with incinerate/conflag?

You generally only need one ember to begin AOE. With Charred Remains each cast of Incinerate should get you 2-3 whole embers.

[Deleted]

You generally only need one ember to begin AOE. With Charred Remains each cast of Incinerate should get you 2-3 whole embers.

But that is not the optimal way to enter the AoE phase.
As you would want to FnB CB asap.

[Fabinas]

Just a conflag with 4+ targets will give you 2 embers.If not, incinerate after and you're set.

[Xandy]

But that is not the optimal way to enter the AoE phase.
As you would want to FnB CB asap.

It's very situational, you have a lot of options with CR Destro and factors like raid dps, mechanics, add health and priority should all factor into your decision. Sometimes you definitely want to start with 3+ embers to pound out quick FnB CBs off the bat, but other times you may want to focus as many ST CB's before the AoE begins, so starting off with one ember is fine there.

[Deleted]

It's very situational, you have a lot of options with CR Destro and factors like raid dps, mechanics, add health and priority should all factor into your decision. Sometimes you definitely want to start with 3+ embers to pound out quick FnB CBs off the bat, but other times you may want to focus as many ST CB's before the AoE begins, so starting off with one ember is fine there.

He asked about Optimal AoE.
Would you agree or disagree that 3x Embers is better than 1x Ember to begin an AoE phase?

In HFC, what fight do you think it would be a poor decision to pool embers before an AoE phase.

[Fabinas]

There are no set rules here, that's what @Xandy meant. Yes, 3 embers is better than 1, but don't insist like it's some kind of rule. It would be a poor decision to keep embers if a certain add had to die ASAP before the AoE phase, for example. Don't ask for specific example, strats on how fights in HfC are dealt are various.

[Styxxa]

One example I thought he was inferring to was Iskar, where if you were progressing you might want to save 4 embers and spend 3 on the Phantasmal Resonance before you start padding on the Illusory Outcasts.

[Xandy]

Iskar is the perfect example, like I said there's a lot of factors involved.

[Deleted]

Another tip for using havoc is to pre-cast it on the boss when you know an add is spawning so that you might get more than one havoc on it. An example of this would be archimonde, you cast havoc on boss before doomfire spawns so that the cooldown resets while doomfire is still up.

[Gaidax]

Iskar is the perfect and only example.

Yes, one should prep 3 embers before AoE, unless there is a really damn good reason not to do so in some very specific case.

[Deleted]

There are no set rules here, that's what @Xandy meant. Yes, 3 embers is better than 1, but don't insist like it's some kind of rule. It would be a poor decision to keep embers if a certain add had to die ASAP before the AoE phase, for example. Don't ask for specific example, strats on how fights in HfC are dealt are various.

I disagree with this though.
There is a set rule with Destruction and its pooling Embers, preparing for an AoE phase is no different.

What priorities you have in raid are irrelevant imo
The question was about optimal AoE not optimal Prio Target damage.


Plus i got to AoE off the bat on iskar from the beginning of our progress

[Xandy]

Iskar is the perfect and only example.

Yes, one should prep 3 embers before AoE, unless there is a really damn good reason not to do so in some very specific case.

Well not everything in WoW is HFC. Yes most of the time you want to pool embers, but in specific cases you can start with one. I though that was what I said to begin with I guess I wasn't clear.