[FROST] Legion Beta Megathread

[Shangalar]

Placeholder first post for all of the information. Coming tomorrow.

In the meantime, shift the Frost discussion here.

[Polarthief]

3/4 FoF plz kthx

[Imnick]

Spell effect demo video asap please

[Obelisk Kai]

So in this thread we can start full throated discussion of whether Lonely Winter will ultimately be a good thing.

Does it offer choice to the Mage class, or does it undermine Frost's identity while potentially complicating spec design?

[Polarthief]

Spell effect demo video asap please

Oh dog yes, we need this immediately for Frost so I can rant about how ass Frostbolt looks.

So in this thread we can start full throated discussion of whether Lonely Winter will ultimately be a good thing.

Does it offer choice to the Mage class, or does it undermine Frost's identity while potentially complicating spec design?

"If you want to go petless, you can go petless". I'd say it's fine if tuned properly.

Bone Chilling adds virtually nothing to the table though. Seriously, that thing is garbage tier, regardless of how much damage it adds. Mechanically, it's terrible.

[Imnick]

Lonely Winter ultimately stifles current and future design of Mage talents, tier sets, trinkets, legendaries, and abilities.
There should be no talents to add or remove pets on any spec, unless it is simply replacing your pet with an upgraded version.

[Obelisk Kai]

Lonely Winter ultimately stifles current and future design of Mage talents, tier sets, trinkets, legendaries, and abilities.
There should be no talents to add or remove pets on any spec, unless it is simply replacing your pet with an upgraded version.

Imnick I agree with you. Lonely winter is a talent that goes to the very heart of what Frost is...it's the debate we have had on it for years.

Is Frost a pet spec, or is it not?

For some, Frost is a nuking spec from vanilla that got saddled with a temporary pet initially and which incrementally became more and more important. After it was added it became permanent. After it became permanent it gained water jet, a crucial ability for generating charges of Fingers of Frost.

So not only is it not even temporary anymore, now it actually has to be MANAGED for optimum damage.

Now, as many of you are aware there is an ongoing debate regarding Mage diversity. It usually flares up in the lead up to an expansion (fourth spec threads and the like) and dies down again after the expansion is announced with no fundamental changes but there are clearly a lot of Mages who feel our current specs simply aren't diverse enough.

Full disclosure, I am in that group.

Now we can see evidence of this at the moment in our existing talent trees on the beta, where we have the most shared talents of any class between specs AND quite a few of our 'spec unique' talents are basically reskins of the same ability (Charged Up/ Flame On/ Frozen Touch are the most egregious).

Frost big differentiating feature is the pet. It is the one thing Frost has that the other specs don't. Looking ahead, it is the obvious touchstone for further refinement and evolution of the spec. Except right now, Blizzard is short-circuiting that by offering the option for Lonely winter.

Once Lonely Winter is a thing, then EVERY design decision about the Frost Mage has to work around the pet rather than with the pet because the pet is not a given. The Frost Mage may decide they doesn't want a pet and take Lonely Winter.

Blizzard does offer that very same choice to Affliction Warlocks and Destruction Warlocks...but the pet is not fundamental for those specs. Warlocks have an entire spec built around the pets being fundamental and that spec doesn't get the choice to remove it.

Which brings me to the original point. How fundamental to the Frost spec should the pet be considered? Because if it's NOT fundamental, then Lonely Winter is fine. BUT Mages will pay a price in terms of homogenization as time goes by, as Blizzard will have to limit themselves in what decisions designs they can take in regards to Frost.

I think it is a mistake. Others likely disagree. At the moment, I expect the talent to go live. It will be interesting to see what happens with it during tuning.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Spell effect demo video asap please

omw. Glacial Spike and Ray have both changed, Glacial Spike looks AMAZING.

- - - Updated - - -

https://youtu.be/FTL-bGkL8cs

[Imnick]

Ray of Frost looks a bit wimpy (though better than the old one) and amusingly is coming out of the wrong hand... but that one's obviously unfinished.
I agree that Glacial Spike looks amazing.

Ebonbolt currently just being a Frostbolt is a shame but again... presumably not finished.


Fingers of Frost giving you frosty fingers is a nice touch :P

[Obelisk Kai]

Love the new effects also, but am I alone in thinking Big Blue needs an update? Many Frost Mages could be dragging a 14 year old low polygon model after them...surely there is room for an upgrade for him?

[gallamann]

3/4 FoF plz kthx

This is probably the top thing I'd like to see, to easy to munch FoF proc with current legion setup

[GwiGwi]

Few things

- Ice lance does not cleave
- You can not use Ice Floes on Ray of Frost/Ebonbolt/Glacial Spike (Bug?)
- Can not have more than 2 stacks of FoF

[Imnick]

Someone said in gen chat that it had a new texture but it... clearly doesn't.
Honestly I don't like any of the newer water elemental models better, but a better texture (and some more polygons wouldn't go amiss, as long as it is in the same style) at least would be nice.

[Polarthief]

These are my exact responses as I watched Kuni's video:

"Ray of Frost looks more correct... Why's it coming from the wrong hand? At least it looks nice and the powering up effect is cool. A bit weak effect, but nothing I didn't really expect. It's okay."
"Frostbolt looks the same?! UGH."
"W-wait, what's going with those Icicles?... !!! WTF NO WAY! OH MY GOOOOOD THAT'S SO COOOOOOOL!" (Glacial Spike)
"Nice checkerboard box." (Icy Veins w/ Icy Chilled to the Core)
"... Yeah that's obviously a placeholder." (Ebonbolt)

Now I'm curious what happens if you get interrupted w/ Glacial Spike midway through it, but oh my fuck, Glacial Spike looks beautiful. Like I cannot express how amazingly awesome Glacial Spike is that I don't even care all that much about Frostbolt anymore, and Ebonbolt is obviously a placeholder. There's no way after making Glacial Spike so awesome that they'll keep Ebonbolt the same, haha.

- - - Updated - - -

- You can not use Ice Floes on Ray of Frost/Ebonbolt/Glacial Spike (Bug?)

I'd almost guarantee this a bug. RoF maaaaaybe they'd not allow, but I don't understand why EB and GS wouldn't be allowed.

[Deleted]

Regarding Lonely Winter, it is a talent I am really looking forward to. I have never wanted to have a permanent pet and the temporary summon we had in TBC and early WotLK was much better, not to mention faithful to the Archmage hero in WC3. To me and most players at the time the core fantasy of the spec was based on showing and shattering enemies, as well as defensives. Adding the temporary pet as an ultimate talent to act as a bodyguard with extra damage and CC was a pretty neat addition.

Making it a permanent pet was a cheap way to make Frost at least slightly raid viable in ICC because you had the extra damage come from its auto attacks (which would not affect PvP). And from that point, the breach was open. The devs wanted to make the pet at least slightly involved and funnily enough it came to a point which made the elemental did more than the pets of actual pet classes.

Honestly, I think Blizzard can design Frost to be another pure nuker spec without having it focused on synergy with pets; that's the theme of other classes in the game! I mean Frost in Legion in its baseline rotation will be just fishing for procs, so why not work on the baseline kit: Water Jet's functionality could easily be a debuff you place on the mobs (could even be added functionality to Frost Bomb, lol).

I think we have reached a good point where you can actually tailor the gameplay to your preference through meaningful talent choices. I don't think shoving unneeded synergy with the pet is good when the baseline kits of the spec could be enriched through other means.

[Segus1992]

It sure is strange to see you positive for a change, Polarthief. Did hell freeze over?

On topic, Ebonbolt looks like it curves, so it's not just straight up a Frostbolt, but pretty unlikely that it'll stay that way anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly, I think Blizzard can design Frost to be another pure nuker spec without having it focused on synergy with pets; that's the theme of other classes in the game! I mean Frost in Legion in its baseline rotation will be just fishing for procs, so why not work on the baseline kit: Water Jet's functionality could easily be a debuff you place on the mobs (could even be added functionality to Frost Bomb, lol).

Personally I feel like the lack of the Shatterfreeze combo would damage my image of a Frost Mage, which has been a thing since TBC. I wouldn't mind having it go back to a CD though, and making Shatter on a frozen (ie not FoF) target actually hurt.

[Polarthief]

It sure is strange to see you positive for a change, Polarthief. Did hell freeze over?

All they need to do is put time and effort into changes, enough that made that fucking amazing Glacial Spike, and I'll be happy about nearly anything.

... not that graphics can fix problems, oh dog no. Even with how great GS looks, if Frost plays like shit, I won't play it.

On topic, Ebonbolt looks like it curves, so it's not just straight up a Frostbolt, but pretty unlikely that it'll stay that way anyway.

It's way too slow and the effect is literally just Frostbolt curving, so... we'll definitely see more with it changing soon.

I'm guessing they just wanted to push out Frost (and Destruction) since they've held it (them) back this long (and they need feedback to ignore I guess).

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Now I'm curious what happens if you get interrupted w/ Glacial Spike midway through it, but oh my fuck, Glacial Spike looks beautiful.

The raising up right before it fires? That's the end of cast and where it will cast up to, regardless of when you cancel. Icicles will reappear after the coalesce.

[GwiGwi]

Seems to me frost is going to be pretty terrible for 2/3 target cleave, unless they make ice lance cleave again.

[Segus1992]

All they need to do is put time and effort into changes, enough that made that fucking amazing Glacial Spike, and I'll be happy about nearly anything.

... not that graphics can fix problems, oh dog no. Even with how great GS looks, if Frost plays like shit, I won't play it.



It's way too slow and the effect is literally just Frostbolt curving, so... we'll definitely see more with it changing soon.

I'm guessing they just wanted to push out Frost (and Destruction) since they've held it (them) back this long (and they need feedback to ignore I guess).

All is well that ends well.

I hope Frost will finally stop being an instant spamfest in PvP.