[Feral] Legion Discussion

[neiljwd]

Alright, Twist my words in whatever way float your boat. I never said Blood Talons don't belong in the rotation, it's Regrowth doesn't.

I stopped reading after your insult, so take it as future advice to remain mature if you want to argue/discuss a point.

The thing is your complaints were so anecdotal and childlike in their nature, a mature response wouldn't have been in-keeping with the tone. He had the decency to respond to your post and gloss over your worse misstep- with a dink to your ribs to make you know it was dumb thing to say and maybe you'll think harder before posting next time?

If you honestly nope out of a conversation in real life every time someone goes to the flagrantly uncouth depths of depraved language and insinuates you're maybe being a bit of an idiot about one thing- then you can't have very many adult conversations. Which is exactly what his tone was, adult, not insulting. He used mathed out numbers (legendary dps gains) rather than your arbitrary "I feel" justifications. That is the mature way to analyze any situation.

Anyhoo, BT has been a thing for half a decade now, Healing Touch/Regrowth doesn't matter. And sure, they could just give us a spell called Blood Talons to activate instead, but then we'd just miss-out on healing for absolutely no mechanical difference. If it's just the theme of it you're complaining about, macro its icon to something suitable, call it BT and leave it at that. Honestly it feels like you're struggling with the 'rotation' and trying to pick holes in the class design rather, rather than buck up and admit you need to improve a touch - I know that's what I had to admit to myself .

Feral has barely changed in the last 5 years, few outlying things here and there, but it's core game-play could be picked up by a returning Cata player very quickly.

Sorry if I'm overly harsh in the 1st paragraph, but i'm sad to see legitimate discussion derailed/halted because one person can't take a little bit of criticism, none of us are perfect, but being open to seeing our flaws is the 1st step to improving ourselves (& characters). Sometimes we need a kick up the ass, ya'know?


Anyhoo on topic- I tell you what would WONDERS for feral gameplay - taking regrowth/PS consuming spell off the global cooldown - I reckon that'd make it 'feel' better to all the people that don't like it, improve class QoL while not throwing out balance much.

[Deleted]

The thing is your complaints were so anecdotal and childlike in their nature, a mature response wouldn't have been in-keeping with the tone. He had the decency to respond to your post and gloss over your worse misstep- with a dink to your ribs to make you know it was dumb thing to say and maybe you'll think harder before posting next time?

So it is wrong for me to have a subjective opinion about class design? Getting a "feel" for a class and having factual "numbers" are two different aspects, both of which are important to class design imho. If you think only numbers matter, then maybe your core thinking about game design is slightly flawed. There's a reason I don't choose to play excel sheets (exaggerated comparison). I tend to put a lot of thought into my Posts, so don't give me that "try harder next time" bullet that has no other intention than provoking someone.

If you honestly nope out of a conversation in real life every time someone goes to the flagrantly uncouth depths of depraved language and insinuates you're maybe being a bit of an idiot about one thing- then you can't have very many adult conversations.

I so disagree with that. First of all, that is your opinion of having an adult conversation, so don't describe it as if it was an unwritten fact. Secondly I could just stop reading the rest of your post here since you seem degrade to the same insulting language as the previous person, but I'll give in this time to share my point-of-view with you.

Which is exactly what his tone was, adult, not insulting. He used mathed out numbers (legendary dps gains) rather than your arbitrary "I feel" justifications. That is the mature way to analyze any situation.

I don't know how many adult conversations you had, but the ones I had never included ranting at eachother. Maybe we should also seperate adult from sophisticated here, in that case I am referring to a sophisticated conversation, which it didn't feel like at all, so I had no intentions to continue arguing.

Anyhoo, BT has been a thing for half a decade now, Healing Touch/Regrowth doesn't matter. And sure, they could just give us a spell called Blood Talons to activate instead, but then we'd just miss-out on healing for absolutely no mechanical difference. If it's just the theme of it you're complaining about, macro its icon to something suitable, call it BT and leave it at that. Honestly it feels like you're struggling with the 'rotation' and trying to pick holes in the class design rather, rather than buck up and admit you need to improve a touch - I know that's what I had to admit to myself.

Yes, they could just call it Blood Talons and even give us an additional effect with it (like Rake has multiple functionalities for example) than recycling a druid spell for only that purpose. I also didn't say I mastered my Rotation, I am main Restodruid and only mastered that specc thus far. I havn't touched Feral much in MoP/WoD since I couldn't be bothered too much with it and I don't exactly remember how many differences there were. I remember Savage Roar being more manageable with glyphs and I remember using Ferocious Bite a lot more than currently. I can't give you factual evidence, it's just the feeling that is different from back when I mained Feral in Cataclysm. I'm sure the more experienced main Feral players from WoD/Legion could give me insight on what actually changed for Feral.

I won't dismiss the fact that I do need more practice as feral and don't know why you believe I deny it. Like I said, I never mentioned being a master Feral player.

Feral has barely changed in the last 5 years, few outlying things here and there, but it's core game-play could be picked up by a returning Cata player very quickly.

The reason why I complain is because that is not what's happening for me. I am not even a returning Cata Player. I played during MoP and WoD, just not as much Feral as I did during Cata, still tried to stay a Little up to date with that specc. I did all missions in Brawlers Guild as Feral in MoP, that's the most I played that specc during that time. I am still having Trouble picking it up as offspecc though and I practice on the dummy occassionaly. If you tell me that I need to practice every day, then that is not what I call "very quickly".

Sorry if I'm overly harsh in the 1st paragraph, but i'm sad to see legitimate discussion derailed/halted because one person can't take a little bit of criticism, none of us are perfect, but being open to seeing our flaws is the 1st step to improving ourselves (& characters). Sometimes we need a kick up the ass, ya'know?

I'm also sad to see a legitimate discussion derailed because one person can't remain on a sophisticated level of discussion. Don't try to use psychology on my and analyse my characteristics based on one post you saw from me. Ask the reasons and judge after you saw both sides of a coin. I like constructive criticism and am thankful for it if it doesn't involve immature/unsophisticated ranting. I have no problem scooping down to someone's level, but I see no joy in it.

I hope you see where I'm coming from now. And yeh I know, I must be fun at parties (sarcasm intended).

[neiljwd]

So you're not an experienced Feral currently, and offering insight on what's wrong with it and how to improve it, I see now why our perspectives don't match up, apologies for wasting your time.

[danji]

Yes, they could just call it Blood Talons and even give us an additional effect with it (like Rake has multiple functionalities for example) than recycling a druid spell for only that purpose.

In my case, I don't understand people who say they don't understand how regrowth or moonfire as a feral doesn't fit the "druid lore." Druids are masters and believers in the power of all aspects of nature. Any druid can, supposedly, make a plant grow, no matter what sort of druid they are. There are different schools of thought - Claw, Fang, Talon, etc etc - but all druids share the basic core abilities because they all, essentially, went to the same Druid Pre-K. To pare it down to one-line examples:

• They all learned that the moon is a powerful arcane force that controls the tides and apparently fires searing lasers - some druids just decided they liked that part most and became boomkins.
• They all learned that when they channel their inner ferocity they can experience the hunt like the animals they revere - some liked this most and became ferals (or of the Talon.)
• Sub-point: all druids learned to admire the speed and freedom of the bird, some just decided to become of the Talon. We can't play Talon druids, but they exist - we just all got Flight form - do you object to all specs using this, too?
• All druids learned that the hibernation of the bear could bring them closer to the all-important Dream, and that the hardened hide gave them extra defenses -- sadly, our characters don't sleep for HUNDREDS of years, but, well, some decided to become bears.
• And then some revered the Ancients and their ability to really hone their ability to repair nature (plant or otherwise meat popsicle) and went resto.

With the same base education (be it by an actual Archdruid or nature itself, given nature is multi-faceted,) why wouldn't all druids be able to use spells from each spec interchangeably? Why shouldn't YOUR druid, who is powerful enough that Malorne blows you a 5% haste buff kiss every time you poke his statue, or that you saved Cenarius, or that you are supposedly Archdruid to Rule Them All (suck it, Malfurion) -- why shouldn't your druid heal yourself even though you're a cat?

From an RP perspective, it makes perfect sense to me at the level my character supposedly exists at. I am not a neophyte. I have this ability. I'm going to use it. I'm good enough that even when i'm focusing on ONE aspect of nature, I can channel the essence of another. So yes, i'm a kitty, but I can shoot moon lazers and regrowth and oh shit i'm a bear if I need to.

Dunno, just my 2c.

<edit> Bonus opinion re: Regrowth as Trigger for Blood Talons (RP Perspective) - casting regrowth in the heat of battle momentarily reinforces your connection to nature, honing your focus and allowing your claws to strike more true.

[Kraineth]

I don't think you can make a strong claim that using regrowth to proc blood talons is a well designed mechanic.

When the effect was first added to the game in MoP as dream of cenarius it was designed such that it boosted the power of your healing and damage symbiotically, and using healing touch made sense.In WoD the talent was streamlined to only provide damage throughput, and the ability lost its reason to be procced via a healing spell.

It would definitely make a whole lot more sense if the talent had been changed into its own button that generated charges via using finishers. And Ferals would be able to battle-res raid members without feeling terrible about having to do it.

Does it fit the druid theme? sure
Is it an outdated way of doing things that could have been properly streamlined? definitely

At the end of the day though, it doesn't have major issues outside of the battle-res scenario, which could easily be fixed by changing bloodtalons such that using any of the spells that consumes it procs the damage buff.

[teddabear]

Anyhoo, BT has been a thing for half a decade now, Healing Touch/Regrowth doesn't matter. And sure, they could just give us a spell called Blood Talons to activate instead, but then we'd just miss-out on healing for absolutely no mechanical difference. If it's just the theme of it you're complaining about, macro its icon to something suitable, call it BT and leave it at that. Honestly it feels like you're struggling with the 'rotation' and trying to pick holes in the class design rather, rather than buck up and admit you need to improve a touch - I know that's what I had to admit to myself .

Feral has barely changed in the last 5 years, few outlying things here and there, but it's core game-play could be picked up by a returning Cata player very quickly.

I wouldn't say it has barely changed, a ton of stuff has been removed. Blood Talons is one of the few things that remains, which is ironic since Blizzard tried to remove it 4 years ago. Even one change can have a huge effect. The change to Savage Roar had a very large impact on gameplay.

While Feral may appear the same on the surface the look and feel or essence as he put it has changed drastically.

[Deleted]

Just as an idea I have seen floating around: Why not make it so, that all spells affected by predatory swiftness give you blood talons stacks. This would help at least in pvp where you want to use roots from time to time. Also I don't really get, why I can use Rebirth in Bear for some rage and not use it in cat for some energy. Just seems odd.

[neiljwd]

I wouldn't say it has barely changed, a ton of stuff has been removed.

While Feral may appear the same on the surface the look and feel or essence as he put it has changed drastically.

Discounting Fairie Fire as a 5 minute button press, we've only lost mangle since Wotlk from our rotation, just 1 simple button press, no mechanical change- and I remember the out pouring of joy upon mangles removal. We've gained the blood talons mechanic.

And that's it.
That's all that's fundamentally changed, a boring button streamlined out of the 'rotation' and a challenging/devisive BT added. I dispute the fact that ferals have changed at their core essence - not like when we lost the ability to power shift. That DID alter the way we play and class feel.

We still Rake, Roar, maintain rip, pool, shred to fill and Bite only when absolutely certain it won't hurt Rip/roar.

[teddabear]

Discounting Fairie Fire as a 5 minute button press, we've only lost mangle since Wotlk from our rotation, just 1 simple button press, no mechanical change- and I remember the out pouring of joy upon mangles removal. We've gained the blood talons mechanic.

And that's it.
That's all that's fundamentally changed, a boring button streamlined out of the 'rotation' and a challenging/devisive BT added. I dispute the fact that ferals have changed at their core essence - not like when we lost the ability to power shift. That DID alter the way we play and class feel.

We still Rake, Roar, maintain rip, pool, shred to fill and Bite only when absolutely certain it won't hurt Rip/roar.

Wow, people have bad memories. Probably missing a few here.

Faerie Fire
Pounce
Cower
Soothe
Hibernate
Barkskin
Entangling Roots
Nature's Grasp
Mark of the Wild
Leader of the Pack
Improved Leader of the pack
Moonfire
Starfire
Wrath
Hurricane
Innervate
Tranquility
Lifebloom
Cyclone
Growl
Challenging Roar
Enrage

And don't forget a real Bear form and all that entailed.
Plus stuff we gained along the way and lost like Symbiosis.

[Deleted]

Huh, huh, another "Bloodtalons is shit and feral isn't rewarding" debate... Better get away swiftly.

Just as an idea I have seen floating around: Why not make it so, that all spells affected by predatory swiftness give you blood talons stacks. This would help at least in pvp where you want to use roots from time to time. Also I don't really get, why I can use Rebirth in Bear for some rage and not use it in cat for some energy. Just seems odd.

This, tho. So I am currently not doing any high-end pvp with my Feral, but on my pve pov I find it weird to feel reluctant about cr-ing my allies because I would lose the opportunity to get 2 Bloodtalons charges. I mean, I can afford it since we have enough crs within our ranges to compensate for me not using it, but I don't really see the harm it would to make it proc from Rebirth (and Roots).

On another topic, anyone has feedback from PTR regarding to the Rip relics changes and the dps aura (smh I can't access the PTR and test by myself which is a pity).
Anyone thoughts about Blizzard's attempt on making our t19 decent ? How will do they ever want us to use Ferocious Bite when Shred's has +15% crit chance and will have +15% damage per bleed on the target (so at least +30% from Rake/Rip, mb +15% from AF if it works with it, +15% from AB, +15% from Thrash if it joins our rotation on OoC procs ?)... And it already kinda sometimes deal more damage than FB ? I still don't like our t19 design but maybe it will be less shittier if they buff it, can't know for sure.

[Tradu]

I don't think you can make a strong claim that using regrowth to proc blood talons is a well designed mechanic.

When the effect was first added to the game in MoP as dream of cenarius it was designed such that it boosted the power of your healing and damage symbiotically, and using healing touch made sense.In WoD the talent was streamlined to only provide damage throughput, and the ability lost its reason to be procced via a healing spell.

It would definitely make a whole lot more sense if the talent had been changed into its own button that generated charges via using finishers. And Ferals would be able to battle-res raid members without feeling terrible about having to do it.

Does it fit the druid theme? sure
Is it an outdated way of doing things that could have been properly streamlined? definitely

At the end of the day though, it doesn't have major issues outside of the battle-res scenario, which could easily be fixed by changing bloodtalons such that using any of the spells that consumes it procs the damage buff.

Or it could be fixed by letting us rez in-form instantly without any proc requirement just like the other 3 specs.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow, people have bad memories. Probably missing a few here.

Faerie Fire
Pounce
Cower
Soothe
Hibernate
Barkskin
Entangling Roots
Nature's Grasp
Mark of the Wild
Leader of the Pack
Improved Leader of the pack
Moonfire
Starfire
Wrath
Hurricane
Innervate
Tranquility
Lifebloom
Cyclone
Growl
Challenging Roar
Enrage

And don't forget a real Bear form and all that entailed.
Plus stuff we gained along the way and lost like Symbiosis.

Pounce and Ravage got merged into Rake/Shred. 2 charge SI more than makes up for losing Barkskin. The LotP aura stuff didn't affect your play. Moonfire is still(more than in the past, even) a thing, same goes for Roots, Wrath and Growl. So basically we lost a bunch of buffs that got removed across the board(which I do think is a bit sad), abilities that never got used(in the case of the Balance spells, although I still don't like that we lost them) and CC abilities that supposedly caused issues in PvP.
We still have Bear Form and still have a talent that lets us function nearly like a real tank(and even without Guardian Affinity I've tanked the majority of a +10 just as Feral in Bear Form)
The only big changes are BT and actually using Moonfire as a DPS ability.

- - - Updated - - -

Huh, huh, another "Bloodtalons is shit and feral isn't rewarding" debate... Better get away swiftly.



This, tho. So I am currently not doing any high-end pvp with my Feral, but on my pve pov I find it weird to feel reluctant about cr-ing my allies because I would lose the opportunity to get 2 Bloodtalons charges. I mean, I can afford it since we have enough crs within our ranges to compensate for me not using it, but I don't really see the harm it would to make it proc from Rebirth (and Roots).

On another topic, anyone has feedback from PTR regarding to the Rip relics changes and the dps aura (smh I can't access the PTR and test by myself which is a pity).
Anyone thoughts about Blizzard's attempt on making our t19 decent ? How will do they ever want us to use Ferocious Bite when Shred's has +15% crit chance and will have +15% damage per bleed on the target (so at least +30% from Rake/Rip, mb +15% from AF if it works with it, +15% from AB, +15% from Thrash if it joins our rotation on OoC procs ?)... And it already kinda sometimes deal more damage than FB ? I still don't like our t19 design but maybe it will be less shittier if they buff it, can't know for sure.

Our 4set is pretty good with the buff, 2set is still disappointing(and bad). Our new legendary is pretty bad. Overall we're in basically the same spot as on live except with more opportunity for using Brutal Slash(no, that doesn't mean on ST and no, it still isn't necessarily THE choice for every kind of AoE, because it's not meant to be)

[neiljwd]

Wow, people have bad memories. Probably missing a few here.

Faerie Fire
Pounce
Cower
Soothe
Hibernate
Barkskin
Entangling Roots
Nature's Grasp
Mark of the Wild
Leader of the Pack
Improved Leader of the pack
Moonfire
Starfire
Wrath
Hurricane
Innervate
Tranquility
Lifebloom
Cyclone
Growl
Challenging Roar
Enrage

I mentioned Ff and I grant you Barkskin was an ability we used, but it's basically just rebranded (improved as) SI now. However none of the other spells were part of our John fukken Madden, - though just fluff. I will also conced that reading that list we have lost a lot of our hybrid awesomeness, and I DO miss it, You're right in that way, I'm more on about core dps gameplay. Loosing the hybridnes is part of an overall trimming of classes in the game tho and not something I think has hurt us much compartively.

[Lycanoth]

On another topic, anyone has feedback from PTR regarding to the Rip relics changes and the dps aura (smh I can't access the PTR and test by myself which is a pity).
Anyone thoughts about Blizzard's attempt on making our t19 decent ? How will do they ever want us to use Ferocious Bite when Shred's has +15% crit chance and will have +15% damage per bleed on the target (so at least +30% from Rake/Rip, mb +15% from AF if it works with it, +15% from AB, +15% from Thrash if it joins our rotation on OoC procs ?)... And it already kinda sometimes deal more damage than FB ? I still don't like our t19 design but maybe it will be less shittier if they buff it, can't know for sure.

From my PTR testing in NH and some mythic+ feral is going to be in a very similar place as live just as Tradu said. We didn't get any significant changes compared to some of the other classes. I am annoyed character copy has been disabled on PTR for almost 3 weeks now so I couldn't really get a solid idea how much our damage has gone up. Considering I am pulling somewhat similar numbers while being down 12 filler traits and a couple of major upgrades compared to my live toon this is a good sign.

As for Relics we will most likely stack Rake relics but rip/tf/berserk relics are not bad. The rip change was to open up more variety in our relic choice instead of prolonging 30-40 ilvl upgrades because of how strong the rip trait was compared to everything else outside of the rake and debatably tigers fury depending on the relic ilvl. Overall this is a positive change.

The recent buff to our 4pc makes it pretty good. Currently AF is not giving the increase damage because it technically is not counted as a bleed. We might be able to do some stupid stuff with 4pc, CoF and incarn at higher ilvls.

There is some bickering going around about the OoC change being a massive nerf which is 100% false. The OoC change is an overall energy gain. The loss of QoL for multi-tab rake sucks but our AoE got some minor buffs to make this irrelevant.

I feel Feral is in a good place going into 7.1.5.

Or it could be fixed by letting us rez in-form instantly without any proc requirement just like the other 3 specs.

I really do not understand why this isn't a thing already. I agree there really is no reason to rework anything because of a minor inconvenience at a worst case scenario.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the insight. Gets me thinking. Honestly I usually do disagree with people saying feral ain't rewarding and I love the spec but... Lately I've been feeling our niche pick doesn't feel really nichy. Don't get me wrong, I don't feel it's bad, I just don't see what gain we get from ramping up with our bleeds. Our pull isn't great, we have trouble switching on high priority targets, our sustained aoe is bad, our utility isn't that great in a raid environment (and our healing got smashed imo when we went from healing touch to regrowth), etc. Is our only use the 20s in which we keep dpsing the boss because our dots are wearing off while we are switching on some other target or doing some other fight mechanic ? Like I'm not against the so called "difficulty" of the rotation (even tho after some comparisons it seems like we're just a slower, worse, harder to play Sin rogue and that makes me question my love for my kitty), but I get trashed by almost everything in MM+ which I now run as a tank on aoe/cleave dps, and I'm getting evened by a lot of classes in single target as well (and melees even on fights like Mythic Guarm were I think ferals have a lot of windows of opportunity to dps where other melees can't) and absolutely destroyed by any Ret/DH/Warrior that has some good legendaries (and since I do pretty good ranks I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with my dps capabilities)... Any thoughts about this "place" you're talking about, Lycanoth and/or others ?

Also, seems like a lot of our "rework" didn't made it through in the 7.1.5 patchnotes. Feels a little bad we're not getting a lot of love . As Dewey said, I expect nothing I'm still let down.

[Aliven]

Sooo how much below is simpler rotation compared to cookie cuter one?

[Deleted]

Any idea if CoF is going to be something we should try to obtain? Lycanoth already mentioned it above, just wondering if I should list it in the nothing special trinket category or try to obtain it.

[Deleted]

No idea. Rppm is atm 3 procs per minute which seems a little bit underwhelming since Zerk/Incarn has a 3min CD. I don't know if they will either reduce the procs for lower cds or increase them for longer ones but currently if it stays this way it should be way more beneficial for classes with less longer cooldowns (such as frost DK or war perhaps).

I have higher hopes with Nightbloom Frond given our Agi scaling and really fast auto-attacking and hope this trinket can really allow us to pull up.

[Zanzha]

Trinkets for nighthold as far as my understanding are basically looking like this

slot1: Frond - must have

Slot2: CoF = Very good, run incarnation
DoS = Also very good, run savage roar

The CoF trinket has around 6.9rppm for feral, its verygood, especially for those that dislike playing with savage roar. Especially as there are some fights that benefit from having some extra on demand burst, like skorpyrons increased damage taken phase.

The incarnation build also makes rake relics better and increases the value of the 4 set.

[neozz1]

Brutal Slash went from 18 second recharge to 12 second recharge.

Will this make feral AoE actually good or will it still be crap?

[Deleted]

Wow nice ! Good thing its higher than on the data tooltips. Me likey. I love Savage Roar but playing some other build might be nice as well.

Neozz, our burst aoe is still pretty decent, sustained still pretty bad. Brutal Slash buff is nice tho, makes it better than BT in a few more situations than it used to.