[LEGION]: FROST Death Knight

[Freedom]

If you have 6-8 sec downtime I'm pretty sure you're doing something wrong. And what exactly is the problem with changing a talent after getting gear? Also, Nemesquish provided logs, and per cast/GCD Rime HB unless it's AoE isn't as good as you are saying it is. So if you have KM Oblit or GA up, or enough RP for FS, especially if some of your runes are down, I see no reason to rush to use HB Rime (I'd post numbers but I am on my phone.) over any of the above.

[RuneDK]

^ this also it helps keep the flow of things when you do experience downtime. It's one of those things you can sit on unless it's aoe or you need to cast obliterate.

[Zutroy]

The state of Frost DK currently has me depressed. It's my most favorite spec to play, since Wrath, but it's looking very noncompetitive in Legion. Is there hope at all for Frost?

[Fenrkyr]

I've seen these anecdotal claims attributed to Blizzard's "internal" test of future raids (right......) that supposedly show frost doing exceptionally well and that the recent nerfs were designed to address this, but the whole story sounds like complete nonsense.

[Deleted]

Yup, nerfing Frost DK right now for raids that we'll see in almost one year (because the way they say it make me think that it concerns T20 and not T19).
That looks like blizzard's logic, seems fuckin' legit to me.

[Maxweii]

The state of Frost DK currently has me depressed. It's my most favorite spec to play, since Wrath, but it's looking very noncompetitive in Legion. Is there hope at all for Frost?

Unholy and Frost are very close, in a sense where saying that doesn't have a hidden meaning, they are very close. Just Unholy has the toolset to shine brighter in more situations, so it will likely be used more, but they are close nonetheless.
And yes the Frost nerfs were warranted because the scaling it had was excessively high. If left alone it would have quickly became a problem, and needed to be addressed later on in the expan. Coming out of the gate level and balanced is better than coming out broken as you're less likely to feel 'nerfed' then as you never played it when it was broken in live.

[Puzzony]

The state of Frost DK currently has me depressed. It's my most favorite spec to play, since Wrath, but it's looking very noncompetitive in Legion. Is there hope at all for Frost?

At 110 Frost is quite okay what i've heard, it is abysmal on prepatch, that's right, but hang on, it will be okay.

[Zutroy]

At 110 Frost is quite okay what i've heard, it is abysmal on prepatch, that's right, but hang on, it will be okay.

Thanks, that makes me feel better

[Fenrkyr]

Unholy and Frost are very close, in a sense where saying that doesn't have a hidden meaning, they are very close. Just Unholy has the toolset to shine brighter in more situations, so it will likely be used more, but they are close nonetheless.
And yes the Frost nerfs were warranted because the scaling it had was excessively high. If left alone it would have quickly became a problem, and needed to be addressed later on in the expan. Coming out of the gate level and balanced is better than coming out broken as you're less likely to feel 'nerfed' then as you never played it when it was broken in live.

I can't recall ever seeing a spec preemptively nerfed. It's almost laughable. "Hey guys, we are going to make you guys dogshit right now (you guys are used to that) so that you won't be overpowered later!"

LOL. Can you imagine the uproar if they nerfed fire or arcane to the point where it was on the bottom, just so it would be "okay" in 8 months time?

[Judic]

I can't recall ever seeing a spec preemptively nerfed. It's almost laughable. "Hey guys, we are going to make you guys dogshit right now (you guys are used to that) so that you won't be overpowered later!"

LOL. Can you imagine the uproar if they nerfed fire or arcane to the point where it was on the bottom, just so it would be "okay" in 8 months time?

Have you ever played a fire mage? They are normally awful at the beginning of an expack and great at the end. I am not worried about frost DKs at all.... yet....

[Maxweii]

I can't recall ever seeing a spec preemptively nerfed. It's almost laughable. "Hey guys, we are going to make you guys dogshit right now (you guys are used to that) so that you won't be overpowered later!"

LOL. Can you imagine the uproar if they nerfed fire or arcane to the point where it was on the bottom, just so it would be "okay" in 8 months time?

They didn't preemptively nerf it, they addressed scaling issues that were prevalent even at only slightly elevated ilvl's, to prevent it being even worse in heightened ilvl's. They didn't even make us dogshit, so I think you should look at it more objectively instead of jumping on the "Frost is shit" bandwagon.

[Freedom]

At 110 Frost is quite okay what i've heard, it is abysmal on prepatch, that's right, but hang on, it will be okay.

Ehhh... I don't have Mythic experience, but I wouldn't call Frost abysmal right now. With good-luck-T18 4PC, FScythe and good Murderous Efficiency luck, our cleave/AOE is damn good, even if not exactly.... complicated. :P Single target isn't as good, though. But it's prepatch, so...

[Fenrkyr]

I am sure you guys are correct, and these "adjustments" were for our own good. Afterall, Blizzard does have a track record of making frost a fantastic, well-balanced raid spec.

[Maxweii]

And having that sort of attitude with all the changes that have happened to Frost and DKs as a class is silly considering things are so vastly different now. Like really I thought the rose tinted glasses phase about Frost was over

[Fenrkyr]

Look, I understand the magnitude of changes to the spec. I realize that on paper it should scale with gear upgrades to a far greater degree than it has in recent history. But what I haven't seen is any indication that things were "out of control" aside from anecdotal claims. The few logs that have been posted didn't show anything outrageous single target, and nothing outrageous on cleave once FSc scaling was reduced. No evidence that frost was going to be too good other than some comments linked by one guy who supposedly has inside data from Blizzard. On the other hand, this is real https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8#dataset=90, and the spec looks to be in the same place it always has been. Yeah, prepatch. Yeah, selection bias. To me, irrelevant. Fact is the spec is bad, right now, on live, and nerfs were applied to address things that MIGHT happen in the future. I just don't see that happening to any other spec.

[Garlee]

I have been running frost as my off spec for sometime now and for legion im switching to full time dps. In 723ilvl gear I'm on a target dummy I'm doing 40-45k dps as frost and I seem to run dry on runes fast. but as unholy I'm doing 50-55k and seems like I always have something to do. Is this the norm? I really want to stay frost I like duel welding always have but am I setting my self up for failure at 110 if I stick with frost?

[Maxweii]

Wait so what you're actually complaining about is prepatch? My lord that's sad.
Some specs gain a lot of power from their artifacts. Frost is one of those. Without it obviously it looks bad.

- - - Updated - - -

I have been running frost as my off spec for sometime now and for legion im switching to full time dps. In 723ilvl gear I'm on a target dummy I'm doing 40-45k dps as frost and I seem to run dry on runes fast. but as unholy I'm doing 50-55k and seems like I always have something to do. Is this the norm? I really want to stay frost I like duel welding always have but am I setting my self up for failure at 110 if I stick with frost?

What you're doing dps wise in prepatch means nothing. Adjust your talents a bit (for example take Murderous Efficiency, and Horn of Winter) and that makes the spec flow smooth if you have down time (it has almost no downtime at 110). The dps is very close in the beta, Unholy has more tools that fit a wider amount of situations, but they are still two specs which are very close to each other.

[Garlee]

Wait so what you're actually complaining about is prepatch? My lord that's sad.
Some specs gain a lot of power from their artifacts. Frost is one of those. Without it obviously it looks bad.

- - - Updated - - -



What you're doing dps wise in prepatch means nothing. Adjust your talents a bit (for example take Murderous Efficiency, and Horn of Winter) and that makes the spec flow smooth if you have down time (it has almost no downtime at 110). The dps is very close in the beta, Unholy has more tools that fit a wider amount of situations, but they are still two specs which are very close to each other.

I know I shouldn't compare now to 110 I'm just trying to set up for the long haul. Don't want to get to 110 invest a bunch in frost only to find uh is better and have to play catch up

[Verko]

I would just select whatever spec is more fun for you. Blizzard has already confirmed a lot of the changes they made were for tuning purposes. They wanted to make tuning numbers easier so that they could keep all specs competitive. This is due to us investing so much time into a main spec and not being able to switch easily because of the artifact. They needed to ensure people didn't get stuck in a spec that was not even close to the others for the class. I have talked to many Mythic testers in beta and they all say both will be viable for once. Unholy might be a little more versatile.

[Garlee]

I would just select whatever spec is more fun for you. Blizzard has already confirmed a lot of the changes they made were for tuning purposes. They wanted to make tuning numbers easier so that they could keep all specs competitive. This is due to us investing so much time into a main spec and not being able to switch easily because of the artifact. They needed to ensure people didn't get stuck in a spec that was not even close to the others for the class. I have talked to many Mythic testers in beta and they all say both will be viable for once. Unholy might be a little more versatile.

Sounds like then by the time the raids roll around a lot can change. Tonight my guild is starting up raids again so I'll see how it goes. Gonna have to play with some talents. And try not to spam obliterate and frost strike. Probably why I'm running out of runes.

In my current frost gear I think I'm around 38% master I logged out as unholy so I can't be sure. Should frostsycth get priority on km proc?