[Legion - 7.2] Not's Demonology Guide

[Deleted]

You get reset to 3 shards, I did say that. But it's still better to try and get 2xDB in before the shard reset as each cast gives you another chance of a DC proc, and that's why you do it, not shard generation (plus its free - admittedly rubbish - damage) - getting that DC proc to combine with the first HoG hugely smoothes out the opener though.

Synergy will be up 99.9% of the time as you do your set-up, but I've generally found it expires pretty often before the first TKC cast if you're maximising that 12s window from your first summon. That's a huge loss in terms of the size of your TKC hit (approximately 25% bigger with synergy). If you are tracking this (and you should be), you should shorten the opener by a couple of DBs, generate fewer imps and throw out a slightly smaller TKC to benefit from the damage buff over prioritising imp generation. After that it's just RNG, you can't control the synergy proc, so you've no way of making it fire off when you want it to, and I'd certainly not advocate throwing away a good TKC set-up because it didn't proc, as you've no way of knowing whether it will any time soon. However, as I demonstrated, with the maths, you're better shortening your TKC set-up by as much as a 4-shard HoG. A TKC with 4+ imps (including Imp DS ones) and 2 DS with synergy is better than 10 imps and 2 DS without it.

As for the opener... I prefer to throw DS with the first HoG always (without a proc) because while you should get a proc while building up your shards when you don't get a proc after the DBx3, and you end up with a crappy HoG for 2 it becomes a horrible mess.

But aside from personal preference, there's multiple good reasons why it's better to throw DS alongside the first HoG - it empowers your DB by an extra 60% (w/o proc, 80% with it), it gives you the freedom to tailor your second HoG to the synergy window if it doesn't refresh, and every single guide and piece of advice you'll find tells you Call DS is one of your highest priority abilities and should be used on CD. Why would you willingly and deliberately delay casting it by up to 5 casts?

Lastly, by sticking it in the back of your opener, you're ensuring that you're casting it around the 15-20s mark into a fight. There's some other issues with this... firstly, you're not going to be casting your second set of DS until the end of the heroism that's popped on pull on most fights. So you're not getting the full TW haste benefit on your second set of DS. Secondly, mechanics have started - that might mean different things on different fights... On Elerethe, the boss jumps away, and while your imps can still hit her, I'd bet your DS, being melee attacks, can't (can't be bothered to check logs and confirm it), so that cast is largely wasted. Or it might mean you have to move - losing a DB cast is less painful when the important part of your TKC is set up and waiting and you're not fishing for a DC proc. Thirdly, if for some reason you need to shorten the rotation - because of movement, mechanics or synergy - you have the option to shorten the rotation by shifting the DE out and going DB(s) - HoG - TKC - DE, rather than dropping DBs and going straight to HoG-DE-TKC and losing an imp. It's minor, but empowering imps adds around 7k to your TKC, where a baseline imp adds 31k to your TKC. As such having a 4 unempowered imps is better than having 3 empowered ones. Failing to empower DS and any imps you got with Imp DS is a much bigger loss though, so that becomes, not undroppable, but sub-optimal to drop.

I also stand by what I said about fixing the opener, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that rotation (even the Call DS at the end is a matter of preference, I think it's sub-optimal for the reasons above, but I'd be willing to bet it's a marginal difference in real damage terms), but you're so dependent on haste and whether or not there's a TW. You can't just say 'do this'. You have to say more like - use this as a guide, find where your breakpoint is for your level of haste with / without TW and extend / shorten it as necessary.

While the point about new players is taken, Demonology is not a simple spec (imo it's actually one of the hardest to play really well), and the initial guide or Icy Veins covers enough for casual players. By page 50 of the forum, you're not really talking to people who want to play casually. The playstyle requires a lot of micro-optimisation to maximise output and it's better to get in the habit of doing it right and understanding why you should do it a certain way than do it a way which works fine most of the time.

[Deleted]

Quick question, hopefully the answer is simple

Should I empower after each cast of HoG when I won't be able to combo my summons, or just keep generating more shards ?

Thanks

[DesireKT]

Quick question, hopefully the answer is simple

Should I empower after each cast of HoG when I won't be able to combo my summons, or just keep generating more shards ?

Thanks

Empower them all

[Deleted]

Hi, back again ! Sorry for the spam but my god this spec is so fun and feels deep as shit.

For context, I play with 21% haste and spent a couple hours on a dummy, cleared my thought process a bit regarding legendary / DC interactions, and have been wondering a few things :

Am I correct in assuming the pull in the OP should change once you get the shoulders ?

I'm currently going with an earlier tkc than the OP, with grimoire, dg, 2 dreadstalkers, and between 8 to 10 imps depending on DC procs, is this a good thing to aim for on pull ? (about 640k non crit TKC with my current gear)

Shoulders again allow me on DC procs to do DS - HoG@4 and be left with 3 shards. Should i empower - DB - HoG@4 - empower or directly go for Hog@3 - Empower ?
Am I correct in assuming the latter would be better if I'm trying to setup a TKC ?

Finally, is it worth it to delay DS by 2 DB casts so I can do a combo DS-HoG empower, or should I just cast it on CD, and lose a gcd by having to empower twice ?

Thanks again a lot for the answers mates !

[Deleted]

I have had bracer+shoulder for a while and a few days ago I got belt too. Thing is I sim higher with belt+shoulder than belt+bracer and my own play testing says shoulder+belt are better for fights longer than 1½-2min, after that they become about equal and after around 4-5min belt+shoulder are on top. And I don't think im a terrible player either, got a quite a few 99% parses and an averge above 90.

Thoughts?

[Darkith]

What's the opener like with Sin'dorei Spite?

[Woz]

What's the opener like with Sin'dorei Spite?

The exact same?

[Toastiekins]

The exact same?

It hits 30% harder

[Woz]

It hits 30% harder

I don't understand the post....is the answer yes(?), obviously(?) or ok(?)?

[Darkith]

I don't understand the post....is the answer yes(?), obviously(?) or ok(?)?

Why would it be the same? I would assume you should ramp up with your pets first then pop doomguard rather than the suggested opener which says to pop doomguard before any pets are out.

[Toastiekins]

I don't understand the post....is the answer yes(?), obviously(?) or ok(?)?

Well the opener is exactly the same. It.. just hits.. 30% harder.

[Woz]

Why would it be the same? I would assume you should ramp up with your pets first then pop doomguard rather than the suggested opener which says to pop doomguard before any pets are out.

You want to have DG on CD ASAP. You still get full benefit of the buff on your pets and TKC by using it first and can get more overall uses of DG by using it early.

[mychatposts]

I did the dreadstalkers (Dogs) before the 4 shard Hand of Gul'dan (HoGs) rotation for a long time (cuz that's what icy-veins said) with pretty poor results. At ilvl 855 I was averaging 180 to 220k dps, even with Stats: [Crit 20%, Haste 45% Mastery 30%]. My logs showed that my pet was doing the most damage. Could be because I wasn't empowering enough. The ramp up to 4 shards to cast HoG is too long. Casting bolts if imps aren't up is an opportunity loss .

I started doing a rotation I call "Dots n' HoGs B4 Dogs" and pretty much doubled my dps on trash and bosses. If I HoG before Dreadstalkers, I don't combo and have to cast demonbolt or shadowflame once or twice before I can call the dreadstalkers, but it's okay by me.

With this new rotation, I was averaging about 360k to 420k dps at ilvl 855-859

It goes something like this: dotting > pet attack > empower > bolt > Hand of Guldan > empowering > shadowflame, bolt, > dreadstalkers > empower > Thal'kiel if up > demonwrath > bolt, repeat.

And now, my imps are doing most total damage and my pet is 3rd or 4th as it sorta should be. I'm definitely happier with the damage output of "Dots n' HoGs B4 Dogs"

[Woz]

I did the dreadstalkers (Dogs) before the 4 shard Hand of Gul'dan (HoGs) rotation for a long time (cuz that's what icy-veins said) with pretty poor results. At ilvl 855 I was averaging 180 to 220k dps, even with Stats: [Crit 20%, Haste 45% Mastery 30%]. My logs showed that my pet was doing the most damage. Could be because I wasn't empowering enough. The ramp up to 4 shards to cast HoG is too long. Casting bolts if imps aren't up is an opportunity loss .

I started doing a rotation I call "Dots n' HoGs B4 Dogs" and pretty much doubled my dps on trash and bosses. If I HoG before Dreadstalkers, I don't combo and have to cast demonbolt or shadowflame once or twice before I can call the dreadstalkers, but it's okay by me.

With this new rotation, I was averaging about 360k to 420k dps at ilvl 855-859

It goes something like this: dotting > pet attack > empower > bolt > Hand of Guldan > empowering > shadowflame, bolt, > dreadstalkers > empower > Thal'kiel if up > demonwrath > bolt, repeat.

And now, my imps are doing most total damage and my pet is 3rd or 4th as it sorta should be. I'm definitely happier with the damage output of "Dots n' HoGs B4 Dogs"

Considering Dreadstalkers are the most damage per shard spent AND also contribute what's equivalent to 8% of your TKC damage compared to 4 Imps (which is 6%), delaying Dreadstalkers in favour of Wild Imps (HoG) is a DPS loss.

As for your experience, you definitely have enough haste (more than enough really) to facilitate having Imps be your top damage source (they are still mine at 35% Haste), seems there was more wrong with what you were doing previously compared to what you're doing after you changed.

[mychatposts]

Considering Dreadstalkers are the most damage per shard spent AND also contribute what's equivalent to 8% of your TKC damage compared to 4 Imps (which is 6%), delaying Dreadstalkers in favour of Wild Imps (HoG) is a DPS loss.

As for your experience, you definitely have enough haste (more than enough really) to facilitate having Imps be your top damage source (they are still mine at 35% Haste), seems there was more wrong with what you were doing previously compared to what you're doing after you changed.

Could be that I started demo on a whim to have a third 110 to do Hallow's End (Got the mount on my second to last run - yay) I did my artifact path completely wrong (no research), so my next available trait is Expendables at 64,800 power (yikes!). Results probably varied with me.

But I just want to correct the rotation:

dotting > pet attack > empower your pet > bolt > shadowflame > Hand of Guldan > empowering > bolt x2 (if needed), > dreadstalkers > empower > Thal'kiel if up > demonwrath > bolt, repeat.

Talents are: Shadowflame, Impending Doom, Demonic Circle, Hand of Doom, Burning Rush, Synergy, Demonbolt.

1 legendary: Sephuz's Secret triggered by pet's Axe Toss. Used on Trash spamming demonwrath.

I don't know. The change up in rotation, tested over and over again, worked. I do way more damage than Simulationcraft says I should do. Dunno. Not complaining.

Honestly, everyone's rotation is dependent on how well they respond to stress and situational, tactical thinking. We can't get stuck in the mode of math always trumps reactive situational reflexes. If the dogs b4 hogs thing is working for you, do it. But if it's not, this alternative, HoGs b4 Dogs, was just a suggestion. No harm in running a heroic once with the switch up to give it a try.

[Deleted]

Hi

With shoulders (with ~23% haste), on DC procs I tend to go to 5 shards (or 4 with a doom tick coming) and either go
Hog4 - DS - Hog3 - Emp
or
Hog4 - DS - Emp - DB - Hog4 - Emp

Wich one would be best ?


Then is it worth delaying DS by 2 DB casts so I can do a combo DS-HoG4 empower, or should I just cast it on CD to maximize dog uptime ?

Thanks

[Woz]

New Legendary Tuning: http://i.imgur.com/clQoGdK.png
Old Legendary Tuning: http://i.imgur.com/EVik6hT.png

[Deleted]

Hi

With shoulders (with ~23% haste), on DC procs I tend to go to 5 shards (or 4 with a doom tick coming) and either go
Hog4 - DS - Hog3 - Emp
or
Hog4 - DS - Emp - DB - Hog4 - Emp

Wich one would be best ?


Then is it worth delaying DS by 2 DB casts so I can do a combo DS-HoG4 empower, or should I just cast it on CD to maximize dog uptime ?

Thanks

2nd one would be the best. Delaying DE for a 3rd combo spell strips the first spell of 2 GCD worth of DE instead of 1.

HoG4+DS/DG+DE is the best combo as Both DS and DG start instantly after summon, HoG imps taken <1s to spawn and thus making them lose like near 0 DE uptime.

[jayx10]

With the nerf to Sin'Dorei Spite, Recurrent Ritual is looking super appealing to me. Just wish there was some haste on those shoulders...

[Galbatroix]

With the nerf to Sin'Dorei Spite, Recurrent Ritual is looking super appealing to me. Just wish there was some haste on those shoulders...

Even with the nerf, its still very strong it affects all spells and all dmg your pets do, I'd assume its still #1, just closer inline with belt and then shoulders.