[MISTWEAVER] 7.X Discussion Thread

[Deleted]

let's be mad at individual players because of blizzard's general ineptitude that's very reasonable behavior

[cqwrteur]

I don't really care about the rest of your post but this point. Like I said, imagine if people actually reported op shit during beta, and not just me. I just personally didn't believe in ignoring feedback potential because I wanted a spec i didn't even want to play to remain op.

You are the greatest shit talker. Even people like Peachpies disagreed you at the feedback post, you still did not stop. Moreover, you are now continuing talking more shit about mw in 7.3.5.

Pre-nerf legs/boots were really stupid honestly. I don't think it's really healthy for a spec for 2 legendaries to result in a 30%+ hps increase.

btw for the record, i was literally always going to be a disc priest, whatever state mistweaver was in was not going to change my decision.

also yet another person who believes mana tea was the reason monk had infinite mana

You are also yet another person who believes fistweaving and gusts of mist did make sense. You are not better than Zenlady.

I'm sick with everything you say now. Please shut up first.

- - - Updated - - -

let's be mad at individual players because of blizzard's general ineptitude that's very reasonable behavior

Buff MW = make op specs players like sups unhappy = they will unsub + QQ about mw = lose profit.

[Rife]

I want to know why this is a stupid argument. The entire purpose of this rework was to make non-mythic raiding mistweavers perform better in raids/dungeons. It's serviced this purpose and beyond that. Are you trying to suggest blizzard cater for 1% of people? They were catering to the 1% in the previous incarnations of Mistweaver, and it was equally unpopular.

It's a stupid argument to make because it's not one that any other healer spec has to make. No other healer is saying "oh it's fine that we are utter shit in mythic raids and mythic+ because most people only do heroic".

Forgetting that other healing specs exist when talking about MW is an easy mistake to make. There are half a dozen examples of it in the last 3 pages alone. Sups talking about how t21 is "good" and that if it comes out as a 15% HPS increase like it simmed and if MW was flat buffed 5-10% they might be good in Argus is a good example of this. He's forgotten that MW stat scaling is fucked compared to other healers and that other healing specs get shiny new t21 bonuses as well. What will end up happening is that MW will remain the 20%-behind-other-healers-throughput-with-no-utility dumpster tier spec it has been all expansion.

I seem to remember some people making a similar case for Nighthold and again for 7.2.5 with the EF changes. Truth is Blizzard want MW to be crap and they're expertly balancing the spec to keep it at its relative position.

The spec has cleared the content at a high world rank, and performs great for the average player. That's textbook "acceptable state" in my mind anyway.

Acceptable in a vacuum where no other healing class exists, sure. Not acceptable when every other healing spec in the game performs better.

People are still crying about Guardians being the only viable MKJ tank but are silent when problems arise the other way around. Having 1 tank spec be mandatory for an encounter isn't acceptable according to the majority of players but having 1 healing spec be worthless on all encounters compared to any other healing spec is fine.

Same is probably going to happen in discussions now for rogues in m+. No one wants one class being that overpowered in m+ but those same people have no problem with one class being equally underpowered. I guess the difference is that when a class is overpowered everyone else complains but when a class is underpowered only the players of that class complain and in reality there just aren't any Mistweavers left, especially at the mythic level.

That's another reason why your argument is stupid. If MW is universally bad at mythic level encounters people just won't play them and any issues they have will go unaddressed because no one cares about what no one is playing.

mfw i get called a retard from the guy who said "Disc Priests shouldn't stack haste". Guess I should just kill myself now.

FWIW I was the guy asking for the evidence when someone repeated old mate albino afro's (totals) stat weights mindlessly. Asking for the maths to back up claims made by "feelings" stirred the pot in the Disc thread for sure though. Good times. What people should of been mindlessly repeating is "stack haste and get innvervates/wisdoms" though. Haste stacking makes perfect sense when you eliminate the need for mana longevity by getting 3+ 'vates and a wisdom so you can raid with triple the mana bar of those without the buffs.

Most of the high parsing m+ and raiding Discs don't stack haste anymore anyway. Most are equiping whatever is highest ilvl and going with it regardless of stats. That might have something to do with the PWR changes and t20 penance 2pce though (both of which aren't affected by haste).

The only thing you can blame me for is making blizzard aware of how overpowered pre-nerf legs/boots were. I'll take credit for that

Not even blaming you though. I get how my post might have insinuated that but I blame Blizzard and overall lack of feedback from the MW community for years now. Every time the spec finds its way to being a top tier healing spec every MW feels guilty of being comparable to a Rdruid and eagerly awaits being relegated back to 2nd class spec status.

I don't think it's really healthy for a spec for 2 legendaries to result in a 30%+ hps increase.

Fine for other healers though right? Again, when MW becomes actually good everyone who plays it feels guilty and either waits patently to get nerfed back to shit-tier or asks Blizzard to do it.

[Deleted]

The 2pce was decent when it scaled with mastery but now it's just a flat sp% hot added to gusts and overwrites itself lol.

The 4pce is trash.

I don't understand why the 4P is still trash.
2P is 228% hots over 12s (so increased by haste)
4P is 300% applied 1 or 2 times on the 2P bonus effect (depending on the timing of renewing mist)
4P should be stronger than 2P now even with slightly higher overhealing than 2P.

I have a quick look to my logs and in my case the 2P should overwrite only ~1/3 of the case.

2P and 4P %SP are in the same order of magnitude than gust of the mist (with raiding gear and low mastery rating). If you do not used RJW talent that's probably equivalent to [7-10]% for the 2P and [10-15]% for the 4P. The more you can us effuse/SG the stronger the T21 would be. The problem is that you can use heavy effuse/SG in heroic and below but in mythic raiding you probably want to use RJW or vivify.

EF+spam effuse on EF hots+TFT and 2 ReM => 4P should do a tons of healing (2*300%*2 per effuse casted). That can be a mini CD every 30s especially with Focus Thunder as the 100 talent with 3ReM (again sorry for mythic raider).

[Supliftz]

It's a stupid argument to make because it's not one that any other healer spec has to make. No other healer is saying "oh it's fine that we are utter shit in mythic raids and mythic+ because most people only do heroic".

Forgetting that other healing specs exist when talking about MW is an easy mistake to make. There are half a dozen examples of it in the last 3 pages alone. Sups talking about how t21 is "good" and that if it comes out as a 15% HPS increase like it simmed and if MW was flat buffed 5-10% they might be good in Argus is a good example of this. He's forgotten that MW stat scaling is fucked compared to other healers and that other healing specs get shiny new t21 bonuses as well. What will end up happening is that MW will remain the 20%-behind-other-healers-throughput-with-no-utility dumpster tier spec it has been all expansion.

I seem to remember some people making a similar case for Nighthold and again for 7.2.5 with the EF changes. Truth is Blizzard want MW to be crap and they're expertly balancing the spec to keep it at its relative position..

I honestly don't know how I can explain my point of view any better than what i'm doing. You seem to believe i'm conflating "acceptable" with "nothing needs to be changed". Lets make my point really clear now, (this might just be my fault for not making it as clear as possible).

Mistweaver is in a fine position. You can bring it to mythic raids and perform fine with it. People have taken Mistweaver to mythic progression before major nerfs and killed progression bosses with mistweaver in the raid. In fact, the Holy Paladin in Limit believed Mistweaver brought a lot of their raid for Mythic Kil'jaeden progression. Now in my opinion, regardless of this objective fact that you can play mistweaver in mythic raids at a high level, Mistweaver is in a seriously bad position. The fact is the spec does nothing special and is significantly worse than specs such as holy paladin/disc priest/resto shaman. If your raid lacks one of those specs I just mentioned, and you as a mistweaver player are capable of playing these specs, you are letting your raid down by choosing to play mistweaver instead of the big 3. This is a position holy priests and to a lesser extent, resto druids share with Mistweavers. This is a very big problem with how healers work in Legion, and I would love to see this addressed.

Now I just want to point out how utterly stupid a comment like "sups is forgetting about other healers when he says a 10% buff is enough". Did we forget how in 1 tier resto druids went from the literal best performing healer on logs, to near the bottom of overall performance?

Compare
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11/#metric=hps
to this
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13/#metric=hps

This was only the result of a 4% global nerf to their hps, a slight nerf to cultivation, and a slight nerf to resto druid shoulders. You're seriously telling me a set bonus which after being proven to provide ~15-16% hps increase, and a global 10% hps increase wouldn't be enough to put mistweaver in a decently strong position because of "mah stat scaling".

Now granted, this buff would not be enough to rival disc priests and holy paladins, but those two specs should honestly be nerfed anyway (wishful thinking xD).

Acceptable in a vacuum where no other healing class exists, sure. Not acceptable when every other healing spec in the game performs better.

People are still crying about Guardians being the only viable MKJ tank but are silent when problems arise the other way around. Having 1 tank spec be mandatory for an encounter isn't acceptable according to the majority of players but having 1 healing spec be worthless on all encounters compared to any other healing spec is fine.

There's a very key difference between healers and tanks you seem to be forgetting. There are two spots in your raid for tanks, and 4-5 healers spots in your raid. Power level differences don't matter as much when you can bring more of something to your raid. Part of the reason Mistweaver is much more acceptable to bring to your compared to say vDH, is because holy paladins, disc priests and resto shamans are overpowered and provide everything your raid needs to kill bosses. So your 4th/5th healer can honestly just be warm bodies that do mechanics and do decent healing. If you were solo healing the power level difference between mistweaver and hpal would be a real issue, but we don't solo heal bosses so...

Now I don't want you to be confused again rife. Please don't take what I just said as trying to suggest that Mistweaver doing less healing than everyone is fine. It isn't, mistweaver should be better and be desirable beyond just a warm body.

That's another reason why your argument is stupid. If MW is universally bad at mythic level encounters people just won't play them and any issues they have will go unaddressed because no one cares about what no one is playing.

That's a...strange argument. Feral druids and Discipline Priests were equally as unplayable mistweaver is now, and both just had reworks to address their issues...?

FWIW I was the guy asking for the evidence when someone repeated old mate albino afro's (totals) stat weights mindlessly. Asking for the maths to back up claims made by "feelings" stirred the pot in the Disc thread for sure though. Good times. What people should of been mindlessly repeating is "stack haste and get innvervates/wisdoms" though. Haste stacking makes perfect sense when you eliminate the need for mana longevity by getting 3+ 'vates and a wisdom so you can raid with triple the mana bar of those without the buffs.

Most of the high parsing m+ and raiding Discs don't stack haste anymore anyway. Most are equiping whatever is highest ilvl and going with it regardless of stats. That might have something to do with the PWR changes and t20 penance 2pce though (both of which aren't affected by haste).

Yup this is the guy who called me retarded.

Not even blaming you though. I get how my post might have insinuated that but I blame Blizzard and overall lack of feedback from the MW community for years now. Every time the spec finds its way to being a top tier healing spec every MW feels guilty of being comparable to a Rdruid and eagerly awaits being relegated back to 2nd class spec status.

I don't feel like breaking down this statement, but why resto druids? wouldn't your argument make more sense if you compared mw being good to disc priest or holy paladin? Since MW came into existence mw has been in a overall better position than resto druid throughout the years lol

Fine for other healers though right? Again, when MW becomes actually good everyone who plays it feels guilty and either waits patently to get nerfed back to shit-tier or asks Blizzard to do it.

So you're saying it's fine for a healer to have an rng chance to get an item that buffs their output by 25%? this is a good thing why...?

[erlster]

I for one am really excited about the T21 effects with these buffs! The healing style it promotes as well is very interesting! Holypaladin flash of light spam, with resto druid hot'tage!

[Rife]

I honestly don't know how I can explain my point of view any better than what i'm doing. You seem to believe i'm conflating "acceptable" with "nothing needs to be changed".

Fair assessment. Saying something is "acceptable" on one hand but on the other hand discussing the need to fix huge issues that other healing specs don't have is a strange position for you to take though.

Now I just want to point out how utterly stupid a comment like "sups is forgetting about other healers when he says a 10% buff is enough". Did we forget how in 1 tier resto druids went from the literal best performing healer on logs, to near the bottom of overall performance?

Compare
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11/#metric=hps
to this
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13/#metric=hps

This was only the result of a 4% global nerf to their hps, a slight nerf to cultivation, and a slight nerf to resto druid shoulders. You're seriously telling me a set bonus which after being proven to provide ~15-16% hps increase, and a global 10% hps increase wouldn't be enough to put mistweaver in a decently strong position because of "mah stat scaling".

I didn't forget the difference between t19 and t20 Rdruid performance but it looks like you're forgetting the changes other classes received and instead implying that Rdruid going from #1 to last place throughput healer is entirely due to Rdruid balancing changes alone.

Since MW came into existence mw has been in a overall better position than resto druid throughout the years lol

You're taking crazy pills.

So you're saying it's fine for a healer to have an rng chance to get an item that buffs their output by 25%? this is a good thing why...?

No I'm saying that it's obvious that Blizzard have no problem giving other specs legendaries that can increase throughput by huge margins or provide godly levels of utility/burst but apparently it's not a good idea for MW. I agree that lego's shouldn't be 20% throughput boosts or similarly OP items but I know other healing specs are going to get them so the choice comes down to either getting on the OP lego train or spending an entire expansion riding the short bus.

Funnily enough the primary reason I don't play my MW at all anymore isn't because it's lacking throughput or utility but because it feels like playing a spec that didn't get the Legion expansion. The talents are dogshit choices between crap and slightly more crap, the class legendaries aren't worth getting or using for anything but ilvl and the set bonuses have been so poorly designed and consistently undertuned that I struggle to find them useful or rewarding to use at all. We spent half the expansion without a baseline defensive CD because Blizzard felt it necessary to give every other healing spec one but not MW apparently. Just fuckin' slipped their mind.

I guess the state of MW in Legion just isn't "acceptable" in my mind, especially after how much I enjoyed it in MoP and WoD. Oh well, they did well with Disc at least.

[Supliftz]

Fair assessment. Saying something is "acceptable" on one hand but on the other hand discussing the need to fix huge issues that other healing specs don't have is a strange position for you to take though.

Probably because acceptable isn't the same thing as "there is no problems". I don't understand how this is a strange position.

I didn't forget the difference between t19 and t20 Rdruid performance but it looks like you're forgetting the changes other classes received and instead implying that Rdruid going from #1 to last place throughput healer is entirely due to Rdruid balancing changes alone.

Yea but you're also ignoring the fact that mistweaver would be going from a shit set bonus (t20) to a real set bonus (t21) on top of gaining a 10% global hps increase. Yet you still believe this wouldn't be enough to fix mistweaver's mythic raid performance because resto druids gain slightly more crit/vers/haste/mastery?

You're taking crazy pills.

did you play wow in mop/wod. i'm curious

i think in this thread alone i've provided evidence countering this idea that mw was bad throughout the years and all people reply with is "you're wrong lol". Why I usually just ignore this posts now. The game i played back then was different to everyone else I guess.

No I'm saying that it's obvious that Blizzard have no problem giving other specs legendaries that can increase throughput by huge margins or provide godly levels of utility/burst but apparently it's not a good idea for MW. I agree that lego's shouldn't be 20% throughput boosts or similarly OP items but I know other healing specs are going to get them so the choice comes down to either getting on the OP lego train or spending an entire expansion riding the short bus.

Funnily enough the primary reason I don't play my MW at all anymore isn't because it's lacking throughput or utility but because it feels like playing a spec that didn't get the Legion expansion. The talents are dogshit choices between crap and slightly more crap, the class legendaries aren't worth getting or using for anything but ilvl and the set bonuses have been so poorly designed and consistently undertuned that I struggle to find them useful or rewarding to use at all. We spent half the expansion without a baseline defensive CD because Blizzard felt it necessary to give every other healing spec one but not MW apparently. Just fuckin' slipped their mind.

I guess the state of MW in Legion just isn't "acceptable" in my mind, especially after how much I enjoyed it in MoP and WoD. Oh well, they did well with Disc at least.

Here's two problems with this idea that "blizzard had no problem with giving other healers op legendaries". For one, no healer legendary was as powerful as pre-nerf legs/boots. Pre-nerf tearstone/judgment ring never came close to the level of power provided by these two legendaries. Secondly, the two overpowered mistweaver legendaries encouraged a playstyle the developers intended to delete this expansion. Why on earth would they rework mistweaver under the pretense of "fistweaving was a mistake" and allow legendaries that made Rising Thunder the most powerful playstyle to be a thing?

btw i'm confused. why am I printed as this mistweaver apologist when my reasoning for choosing to play another healer is similar to yours. When I saw the mistweaver rework i said to myself "yeah fuck mistweaver forever".

[ReD-EyeD]

After more than a year Blizzard fixed WW hidden ability for all classes. Congratulations.

[Floopa]

MW is strong on PTR right now.

wish i was memeing but im not

[Rife]

4set could be ~3000% sp healing every 8 seconds in a raid and a reliable 1500% in 5 mans. Double with TFT or triple with legs for meme value.

Looking forward to messing with it in m+

[Myta]

I'll keep saying it, now and forever, MWs are not allowed to be good.

And the problems we had where the two biggest voices in our community, Sups and Geo were outright antagonistic to any other MW who dared share an opinion different from theirs caused this problem. The insulting tone he took to MWs both here and on the WoW forums, which led to downvote brigading (because no other MW in the world had done M HFC apparently) of perspectives different from his, the constant month-long degrading of MWs who had years of raid exp but because they weren't in a super speshul guild like him, their opinions were deemed worthless, and they were shouted down, and being best friends with Babylonius allowed Sups to essentially run the Mistweaver thread as if he owned it, and if you disagreed with him too much you could very well get banned for it.

All of this culminated in Sup/Geo's perspectives being amplified and contradictory perspectives being shunned. It turns out that only caring about parses and stat weights is absolutely meaningless without theorycrafting and understanding a healer in context with other healers. Both Sups/Geo did not understand this, at all.

You won't find Sups complaining now that Disc Priest is now a 100% healer and a 50% dps, because Disc has been so cemented as one of the best healers in the game that people could not accept it being a 50/50 healer, at all. But they can accept MW as the worst healer because MW has always been the worst healer. Sups is so ignorant of the class he does not understand mechanically, from a design perspective even WHY people don't want 90% of MW throughput tied to bandaid tier bonuses, he points constantly to extremely isolated cases and brief spots of time where MW was 'good' and ignores 90% of the game since MoP where being a Mistweaver was a joke spec.

And I think in some weird twisted way, Sups wants Mistweaver to remain the lowest played spec of the lowest played class, wants it to remain a quirky joke spec and actively repels against the idea that Mistweaver could ever, ever occupy the number 1 healer spot for a considerable length of time the way every other healer has been able to do. The joke that even in beta, Sups was saying the bandaid on Life Coccoon was 'fine' when druids had 45sec Pain Suppression is emblematic of this problem.

It's far past the time people take anything he says seriously, and I don't trust his perspective or feedback going into the next expansion at all.

We're a healer spec without any active theorycrafting now, there are so few Mistweavers people barely consider making videos on how to play this class anymore, people don't want to pick up MW for the first time because we spend 70 levels healing with Soothing Mist channeling that's where Mistweaver is at. Mistweaver going into the next expansion is in damage control mode, we have to fight to have just the bare minimum support from Blizzard.

[Floopa]

mw is sleeper op in argus

trust me m8s

stay mw, and enjoy.

[Supliftz]

I'll keep saying it, now and forever, MWs are not allowed to be good.

And the problems we had where the two biggest voices in our community, Sups and Geo were outright antagonistic to any other MW who dared share an opinion different from theirs caused this problem. The insulting tone he took to MWs both here and on the WoW forums, which led to downvote brigading (because no other MW in the world had done M HFC apparently) of perspectives different from his, the constant month-long degrading of MWs who had years of raid exp but because they weren't in a super speshul guild like him, their opinions were deemed worthless, and they were shouted down, and being best friends with Babylonius allowed Sups to essentially run the Mistweaver thread as if he owned it, and if you disagreed with him too much you could very well get banned for it.

All of this culminated in Sup/Geo's perspectives being amplified and contradictory perspectives being shunned. It turns out that only caring about parses and stat weights is absolutely meaningless without theorycrafting and understanding a healer in context with other healers. Both Sups/Geo did not understand this, at all.

You won't find Sups complaining now that Disc Priest is now a 100% healer and a 50% dps, because Disc has been so cemented as one of the best healers in the game that people could not accept it being a 50/50 healer, at all. But they can accept MW as the worst healer because MW has always been the worst healer. Sups is so ignorant of the class he does not understand mechanically, from a design perspective even WHY people don't want 90% of MW throughput tied to bandaid tier bonuses, he points constantly to extremely isolated cases and brief spots of time where MW was 'good' and ignores 90% of the game since MoP where being a Mistweaver was a joke spec.

And I think in some weird twisted way, Sups wants Mistweaver to remain the lowest played spec of the lowest played class, wants it to remain a quirky joke spec and actively repels against the idea that Mistweaver could ever, ever occupy the number 1 healer spot for a considerable length of time the way every other healer has been able to do. The joke that even in beta, Sups was saying the bandaid on Life Coccoon was 'fine' when druids had 45sec Pain Suppression is emblematic of this problem.

It's far past the time people take anything he says seriously, and I don't trust his perspective or feedback going into the next expansion at all.

We're a healer spec without any active theorycrafting now, there are so few Mistweavers people barely consider making videos on how to play this class anymore, people don't want to pick up MW for the first time because we spend 70 levels healing with Soothing Mist channeling that's where Mistweaver is at. Mistweaver going into the next expansion is in damage control mode, we have to fight to have just the bare minimum support from Blizzard.

i've never had fan fiction written about me. i'll be sure to save this in my folder of "ego boosts"

i do find it slightly interesting that an lfr raider is telling a mythic raider that they do not know how healing specs work in relation to each other.

[Myta]

Sups first response to any criticism is to attack another person's progression, he's done this for years, and likely as long as he's played WoW. This is what he did in the past to posters who were in hindsight actually correct about their assertions.

Sups will never argue facts, or reality, he will always talk about his guild or his progression as if that excuses him from having actual factual knowledge about anything.

And it's interesting that despite knowing full well who I am, and this forum knowing who I am, he still needs to lie, and that's what truly makes him incapable of giving feedback or incapable of being trusted by anyone, and by extension giving meaningful feedback to Blizzard since it fundamentally requires one to flexible, and most importantly challenge oneself and what he hates above all else is to admit he is wrong about anything.

Nothing he predicted in Beta turned out to be true, as they were if not outright lies, they were totally wild assumptions made without evidence. No one going into the next expansion should ever trust what he says due tendency to attack other testers who give feedback that he disagrees with, which is non-conducive to a healthy testing environment.

[Supliftz]

Sups first response to any criticism is to attack another person's progression, he's done this for years

I wasn't aware you were providing criticism towards me. I thought you were just making a story tbh. It's a good story and it is very entertaining.

[Myta]

I wasn't aware you were providing criticism towards me. I thought you were just making a story tbh. It's a good story and it is very entertaining.

I did nothing but highlight your awful attitude. In the end you tanked your reputation entirely on your own.

[Rekkal]

Everyone in this thread is playing 4D mistweaver class balance chess while suplift is playing checkers.

[Supliftz]

I did nothing but highlight your awful attitude. In the end you tanked your reputation entirely on your own.

i tanked my reputation? in what way :O

[Kuruption]

Feels like a Dear Diary moment.