[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Deleted]

May I just say how much I hate mages? Who thought it'd be a good idea to basically make everything the Paladin has stealable?

[Morally Grey Storm]

May I just say how much I hate mages? Who thought it'd be a good idea to basically make everything the Paladin has stealable?

because balance and hardcounters and it just so happens that mages counter any and all you can do l2p it's not about 1v1 yada yada and so on and so forth something something gitgud

[Snowfunk]

I'm pretty sure that using JV to build stacks isn't worth it once you've filled out all the TV-boosting traits in the artifact. Even with it building the stacks faster, you're giving up more damage by blowing 10 hopo on a mediocre finisher rather than using them all on three-and-a-bit TVs.

Is that so? Do you start with 3 Hp then? TV > WoA > TV > Normal rotation. Or how do you do it?
I just picked up the JV "trick" when I started using Crusade, it feel's really good to get them stacks that quickly.
Maybe it's not the best way anymore.
How is everyone else doing it? Would love more input.

[Deleted]

Is that so? Do you start with 3 Hp then? TV > WoA > TV > Normal rotation. Or how do you do it?
I just picked up the JV "trick" when I started using Crusade, it feel's really good to get them stacks that quickly.
Maybe it's not the best way anymore.
How is everyone else doing it? Would love more input.

You still can start on 5 HoPo, spend, CS, spend, WoA

[Deleted]

860 blazing hydra flame sac (+15 flash of light) or 855 Stormforged Inferno (+8% Blades) for my fire slot?

---Edit: or how do i change relics in simcraft?

check out thete´s vid on it he explained it pretty much fool prof. How do I know? I´m a fool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34n4UgQLSDk

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Is that so? Do you start with 3 Hp then? TV > WoA > TV > Normal rotation. Or how do you do it?
I just picked up the JV "trick" when I started using Crusade, it feel's really good to get them stacks that quickly.
Maybe it's not the best way anymore.
How is everyone else doing it? Would love more input.

Solsacra at some point in this thread pointed out that it will be a dmg loss to use JV to stack faster. therefore tv >> JV for stacking

[Maylander]

IIRC, stacking is basically:
5 HP > J > Crusade > TV > Zeal > TV > WoA > TV > Zeal > TV

Since it starts at 1, that's 13 out of 15 stacks.

[Veliane]

All these sims tell me Vers > Crit > Haste and Zeal beats TFoJ, but I find I do more DPS by keeping TFoJ and 30% haster than going with higher Ilvl pieces with Vers and Crit. What gives?

[Improtaight]

All these sims tell me Vers > Crit > Haste and Zeal beats TFoJ, but I find I do more DPS by keeping TFoJ and 30% haster than going with higher Ilvl pieces with Vers and Crit. What gives?

Every1 using sims keep forget, that sim actually simulates a perfect gameplay, and almost no1 has a perfect gameplay.
if u do more dps with something, that means u're better with that something, with the TFoJ, i for one, am actually used to Zeal and i feel its better for me.
to each his own.

the difference between those isnt that huge anyway...

do what u like!

[Snegovik]

May I just say how much I hate mages? Who thought it'd be a good idea to basically make everything the Paladin has stealable?

Welcome to Ret's PvP life, i had to deal with this BS since Wrath (when i lvled ret) before they could SS our wings, so you had 2 choices: 1) NEVER pop wings when facing mage or 2) Bubble and then Pop wings, since back then bubble did not have 50% dmg reduction (as it is in Legion). But ya when u fight mages u have to make /cancelaura macros for freedom, SoV, even BOP for arenas (if u want use bop as a trinket, or clear feral's opener bleeds of u)

[Fallom]

I just started gearing my ret and i have a bunch of gear from WQ and mythics and have done a lot of combinations of gear. Sims show a lot of what you guys are saying but i find if i drop down to 22% or 18% haste i do a lot less damage in a mythic over all.

Right now with 31.3% haste, 26% crit, 5% vesa and 16% mastery i do 30k more dps then 22% haste 28% crit, 27% mastery and 10% ves

Just from my playstyle i can see 35% haste being useful. It gets a little wild with crusade and lust lol its very fast.

[Floross]

I just started gearing my ret and i have a bunch of gear from WQ and mythics and have done a lot of combinations of gear. Sims show a lot of what you guys are saying but i find if i drop down to 22% or 18% haste i do a lot less damage in a mythic over all.

Right now with 31.3% haste, 26% crit, 5% vesa and 16% mastery i do 30k more dps then 22% haste 28% crit, 27% mastery and 10% ves

Just from my playstyle i can see 35% haste being useful. It gets a little wild with crusade and lust lol its very fast.

Some haste is needed to account for target swaps , as sims consider that you always have a target. Also it seems that when you dropped haste you also acquired a decent chunk of mastery which is our worst stat ( for single target, and w/o Greater Judgment ).

Also consider the default sims are Patchwork, single target, full uptime on boss.

Change the style of the fight ( HelterSkelter, HecticAddCleave, Light Movement ) and you might find different values.

If you don't want to use those styles as they introduce downtime via movement you can just change the number of targets to the right to 3, 4, 5, etc. to see stats for trash dps in mythics.

In the end, when simming you have to adjust the sims to what you're looking for.

Most people find it inconvenient to keep that many sets of gear so they focus on Single Target damage and just switch talents to account for the type of fight.

[Fallom]

Yes, also i primarily do mythics and dungeons so having most fights be trash i would assume haste and mastery would be king for aoe talents. I can keep up with TFoJ and BoW with classes that have much better aoe because i get a lot more finishers off.

I havent tried to go just haste master and vesa with greater judge and hammer for pure aoe because i dont like the hp growth. There is an obvious dps increase with zeal but it feels a little clunky because of the cool down. I am by no means an expert but I can keep up with or surpass people within 20 ilvl because i do not use upgrades that dont boost the stats i want to use. When it's boss time and crusade my dps goes way up because getting to 15 stacks is really fast. My main is a fury warrior and they value haste more then any other stat. I like how there is no down time in the rotation, so maybe i just do better with that style

[Kezotar]

20-21% Haste > Crit > Versa/Mastery.

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I just started gearing my ret and i have a bunch of gear from WQ and mythics and have done a lot of combinations of gear. Sims show a lot of what you guys are saying but i find if i drop down to 22% or 18% haste i do a lot less damage in a mythic over all.

Right now with 31.3% haste, 26% crit, 5% vesa and 16% mastery i do 30k more dps then 22% haste 28% crit, 27% mastery and 10% ves

Just from my playstyle i can see 35% haste being useful. It gets a little wild with crusade and lust lol its very fast.

Haste will and is capping you. Crit on the other side will help you do more damage.

[Deleted]

I just started gearing my ret and i have a bunch of gear from WQ and mythics and have done a lot of combinations of gear. Sims show a lot of what you guys are saying but i find if i drop down to 22% or 18% haste i do a lot less damage in a mythic over all.

Right now with 31.3% haste, 26% crit, 5% vesa and 16% mastery i do 30k more dps then 22% haste 28% crit, 27% mastery and 10% ves

Just from my playstyle i can see 35% haste being useful. It gets a little wild with crusade and lust lol its very fast.

I am testing things myself aswell. I was running 30% haste with BoV. It felt good. Now i juggled some stuff around and am at 22% haste with BoW. I'm convinced the higher haste build would be a better fit for zeal+BoW.
I'm gonna test it on the raid tomorrow and see. On mythic + it seemed good though. It sims better aswell (though its only 8k more), but its difficult to tell if its actually better because theres so many factors (and randomness in crits for example) that make values fluctuate during boss fights.

I do feel better just using my higher ilvl gear though. And a proper strength trinket (since i wasnt lucky enough to get the arcano crystal). With lower haste i do feel like its a boon when the chrono shard procs.

In the absense of the old mastery i find myself liking versatility though. Haste is a stat that loses its value if you have downtime (though it has a clear advantage until a certain point due to the judgment debuff) and crit is a roll of the dice. Versatility really makes me feel like i'm gaining damage everytime i get some.

Another note is how the changes in 7.1 will affect this. Without the lower CD on BoW beeing a garantee to keep the rotation going its entirely possible that the value of haste will go up and 30% is a thing again.

[Fallom]

I can understand haste capping on crusade stacks. However with 22% haste my damage is subpar when not using crusade. With more haste i can keep up on AOE pulls with classes that have better aoe. Mythics are alot about the trash.

I get sims i understand what they are all about. I have simmed my character and it says to do 22% haste crit etc

What I am talking about is real world results and throwing it out there that there might be different ways to play then what a sim says. Stuns, having to run out having to bubble, having to position different because of stuff on the ground, knock backs etc. You lose gcd on judgement, sometimes over cap on hp, sometimes you use Have to heal yourself. I could see Divine purpose being good for aoe too in mythics, it is a little unpredictable though.

I'm not saying either way is bad or good. I was just throwing it out while playing with 31% haste, for me, I do better. Edit: especially when crusade is on cooldown.

[PizzaSHARK]

YES! Changes reverted! Fucking Yes!

The idea is starting with 5 Holy power. Pop Crusade > Justicar's Vengeance > Wake of Ashes (With Ashes to Ashes) > Justicar's Vengeance. That's basically instantly 10 stacks. And from there generate HP and hit TV as normal untill 15 stacks. Good idea to let Judgement be the last thing you hit before activating Crusade, because you don't want to use that while maxing your stacks out.

Awesome, thanks for the advice.

[Deleted]

Awesome, thanks for the advice.

Just want you to know that has been debunked by Solsacra before. The wasted holy power is not worth the faster stack building and damage loss from using JV... unless maybe on pvp if the target is stunned.

[Fallom]

I am testing things myself aswell. I was running 30% haste with BoV. It felt good. Now i juggled some stuff around and am at 22% haste with BoW. I'm convinced the higher haste build would be a better fit for zeal+BoW.
I'm gonna test it on the raid tomorrow and see. On mythic + it seemed good though. It sims better aswell (though its only 8k more), but its difficult to tell if its actually better because theres so many factors (and randomness in crits for example) that make values fluctuate during boss fights.

I do feel better just using my higher ilvl gear though. And a proper strength trinket (since i wasnt lucky enough to get the arcano crystal). With lower haste i do feel like its a boon when the chrono shard procs.

In the absense of the old mastery i find myself liking versatility though. Haste is a stat that loses its value if you have downtime (though it has a clear advantage until a certain point due to the judgment debuff) and crit is a roll of the dice. Versatility really makes me feel like i'm gaining damage everytime i get some.

Another note is how the changes in 7.1 will affect this. Without the lower CD on BoW beeing a garantee to keep the rotation going its entirely possible that the value of haste will go up and 30% is a thing again.

Thats one stat build i want to try high hast high vesra. I dont know how likely it is to get to 30% versa but along with the extra damage, the added damage reduction could be very helpful. I have never gotten versa past 12% so i dont know if there are DR and it becomes harder to get points

[Ryuji]

I wonder if it's worth it to use some mastery gear during aoe pulls. I've collected a few pieces and was curious. I know our AoE is abysmal to, say, DH, WW Monk etc. but I figured with GJ and more mastery, could help give Divine Storm more oomph, then again might lose out on crit so...not sure.

[Deleted]

When is a Relic without Wrath of the Ashbringer stronger than a Relic that pushes this trait? I have an 840 relic with +1 Wrath and got a 855 Relic with +1 to Might of the Templar. According to Simcraft it is still weaker than my 840 relic.
How stupid is this? -.-