creation of the old gods

[Piamonte]

i have a theory of how the void lords create the old gods:

So we know that the void lords can´t manifest themselves in our universe, only the most powerful ones can do it and only for a short period of time consuming a huge amount of matter and energy in the process, so intead, they create the old gods. Somehow these old gods (the creations) can do something that the void lords (the creators) can´t .

How is this possible??

This is possible because the old gords are formed from something that is part of our universe: the souls.
Remember when Silvanas commited suicide and her soul was sent to the void??

Time was meaningless here. Her whole life seemed not a series of events but a single instant, a
pinpoint flash of consciousness in an infinite void.
She saw only darkness.
And then she felt—truly felt, for the first time in a long while. She recoiled. In agony.
Here she was, her spirit once again feeling whole, only to feel it suffer. To feel once
more, only to feel abject pain. Cold. Hopelessness.
Fear.
There were others in the darkness. Things she didn't recognize, because nothing so
terrible could exist in the world of the living. Claws tore at her, but she had no mouth
with which to scream. Eyes looked at her, but she couldn't look back.

(...)

Now the others had her. Surrounded her. Gleeful, tormenting, tearing at her
consciousness, delighting in her suffering.

Horror

these others are the void lords. They are tearing her soul apart until there is nothing left of her. Obviously the void lords do the same thing with every single soul that comes to the void, and there are a lots and lots of them, because in the universe are countless individuals who, in one way or another, manage to earn their place in the void once they reach death.

and here comes the central part of my theory:

Once the void lords are done torturing these souls, there is nothing left of them, they can´t be called souls anymore, at least not in the sense of spirits that belonged to a living being, They are now a substance, an essence filled with hopelessness, terror, pain, anguish, darkness, etc. Not a single shred of personality remains, there is nothing that can tell one soul apart from the other. So in this way is easy for the void lords to simply stick them together and combine them in one single mass, a mass of suffering, of despair, of hopelessness, of terror, the seed of an old god. Once is big enough the void lords open a portal and send it to the great dark beyond, where they travel until they reach a world they can infect. There, the mass of souls absorbs the materials of the world transforming them into flesh they can use to take a material form and so, an old god is born.

tl;dr: the old gods are made from the spirits of the living beings that end in the void when they die.

hope you like it and sorry if sometimes is a little difficult to understand because my english is not perfect

[Felrane]

Not a bad theory but we don't know if WoW universe has a heaven or hell. So many powers can stop souls from going to where ever they go. LK trapped them in his blade and even created a forge that transfers all souls that die on northrend into it. We have seen Naruu that are dieing devour souls trying to go back to the light. Dark naruu absorbing them for power. Nerzul letting his own soul be devoured by the Void to give him power. Warlocks can rip out souls to empower their spells. They can also absorb wandering souls to restore life and mana. Ect. ect..

Personally I think they are just constructs that were created in the void and sent through a crack in reality crash landing on planets all over the universe. Similar to the titans constructs just something from another dimension just made out of organic mass instead of stone.

[Piamonte]

Not a bad theory but we don't know if WoW universe has a heaven or hell. So many powers can stop souls from going to where ever they go. LK trapped them in his blade and even created a forge that transfers all souls that die on northrend into it. We have seen Naruu that are dieing devour souls trying to go back to the light. Dark naruu absorbing them for power. Nerzul letting his own soul be devoured by the Void to give him power. Warlocks can rip out souls to empower their spells. They can also absorb wandering souls to restore life and mana. Ect. ect..

The lich king use powers from the void, or at least void in nature, that would explain why he has control over souls and where they go. The naaru that devour the souls are sending them to the void,etc. But thats not the point, i´m not saying there are a established heaven or hell in wow, nor i'm contradicting the many ways in which some beings can control and use the souls for their own benefit, all i'm saying is that there are many souls out there, that one way or the other end in the void, regardless if the void is actually considered hell in wow lore or not and regardless the many other places where a soul can be send.

Personally I think they are just constructs that were created in the void and sent through a crack in reality crash landing on planets all over the universe. Similar to the titans constructs just something from another dimension just made out of organic mass instead of stone.

how can the void lords make something out of organic mass if they don´t have any organic mass available where they are. To be honest i don´t think that anything organic can exist in the void just as the void lords can´t exist in our universe.

[Qualia]

i have a theory of how the void lords create the old gods:
<...>
tl;dr: the old gods are made from the spirits of the living beings that end in the void when they die.

There are a few holes in your theory:

- Firstly, as you said - the Void Lords are bound to the Void. Only the most powerful of them can manifest in reality, and only for a limited amount of time. However, souls / spirits of living beings end up in Shadowland when they die instead - and this is more likely where Sylvanas ended up too, seeing that the Valkyrs were able to save her (they bring people back from Shadowlands, not the Void).

Like the Emerald Dream, the Shadowlands are tangentially linked to the world of Azeroth. Yet whereas the Emerald Dream represents life, the Shadowlands represent death. They are nightmarish realms of decay, labyrinthine spiritual planes teeming with the souls of the dead who have passed from the world of the living.
The origins of the Shadowlands remain uncertain, but they have existed ever since mortal life first arose in the physical universe. Many believe that mortal souls are drawn into this dark place at the point of death, where they remain forever after. Still others hope that their souls will go on to a brighter place, rather than languish for eternity within the cold confines of the Shadowlands.

Since the Void Lords don't exist in Shadowlands (as they are bound to the void and can only manifest in the physical universe for a limited time), what Sylvanas experienced couldn't be the Void Lords.

- Secondly, we already know that the Old Gods didn't "absorbs he material of the world transforming them into flesh" when they "reach a world they can infect". They can grow (athough whether by absorbing the world or not, I'm not sure), but they were already given flesh before they even land

The elemental lords reveled amid the primordial bedlam until a group of Old Gods plummeted down from the Great Dark. They slammed into Azeroth's surface, embedding themselves in different location across the world.

The reason why the Old Gods can exist in our universe normally, while the Void Lords can't (with exceptions of some of the most powerful among them for limited time) is simple - the Void Lords are being made of pure shadow energy. They are bound to the void. On the other hand, the Old Gods are "physical manifestation of the Void", "mountain of blighted flesh and writhing tentacles". They have a physical form, so they can exist in the physical universe.

Edit: also, this wasn't up when I started typing my post

how can the void lords make something out of organic mass if they don´t have any organic mass available where they are. To be honest i don´t think that anything organic can exist in the void just as the void lords can´t exist in our universe.

Only the Void Lords are made of pure shadow energy. There is no indication that there isn't any physical stuffs in the Void - Voidcallers, for example, have their mantles. Additionally, it wasn't stated whether the Old Gods were created in the Void, or the Great Dark Beyond / physical universe either.

[Piamonte]

There are a few holes in your theory:

- Firstly, as you said - the Void Lords are bound to the Void. Only the most powerful of them can manifest in reality, and only for a limited amount of time. However, souls / spirits of living beings end up in Shadowland when they die instead - and this is more likely where Sylvanas ended up too, seeing that the Valkyrs were able to save her (they bring people back from Shadowlands, not the Void).

Since the Void Lords don't exist in Shadowlands (as they are bound to the void and can only manifest in the physical universe for a limited time), what Sylvanas experienced couldn't be the Void Lords.

i´m sure its the void, you should read Silvanas short story again, it can´t be anything else, the description is pointing directly to the void and not the shadowlands, also we don´t know what the valkyrs can o can´t actually do, may be they can bring souls back from the void just that we never saw them do it until Silvanas or if you think about it, they are not resurrecting her the usual way, they are making a bond with her so they can be free from the frozen throne. There are many ways to explain this but i won't argue this pass this point, because as i said, it can only be the void what the story is talking about.

Also: There were others in the darkness. Things she didn't recognize, because nothing so
terrible could exist in the world of the living.
What else can this be if not the void lords?

- Secondly, we already know that the Old Gods didn't "absorbs he material of the world transforming them into flesh" when they "reach a world they can infect". They can grow (athough whether by absorbing the world or not, I'm not sure), but they were already given flesh before they even land

The reason why the Old Gods can exist in our universe normally, while the Void Lords can't (with exceptions of some of the most powerful among them for limited time) is simple - the Void Lords are being made of pure shadow energy. They are bound to the void. On the other hand, the Old Gods are "physical manifestation of the Void", "mountain of blighted flesh and writhing tentacles". They have a physical form, so they can exist in the physical universe.

You can dismiss that part of my theory if you want, it was just a final thought trying to explain how the old gods have a physical body resembling the curse of flesh. I can explain it in some other ways, may be the concentration of souls is so big and the souls so tormented that they become something tangible in the same way you can actually hit a dark spirit in the game and kill it or may be they absorb matter while they are travelling through the great dark beyond.

Only the Void Lords are made of pure shadow energy. There is no indication that there isn't any physical stuffs in the Void - Voidcallers, for example, have their mantles. Additionally, it wasn't stated whether the Old Gods were created in the Void, or the Great Dark Beyond / physical universe either.

Voidcaller´s mantles are made from void energy, may be a physical manifestation of some sort but void energy nonetheless, is not the same as the flesh the old gods posses

Yes it wasn't stated but because of that, because we don´t know certain details is that we can make theories and my post is just that, a theory.

[Deleted]

Wrong forum, had too many banners up... Got lost in them...

Though I can add what others have in form of... Sylvanas did NOT in fact go to the void when she committed suicide. She went to the Shadowlands, it's a death-realm so to speak. It's where most spirits of the dead apparently go. It's not tied to the void, it's not the void... It's creation is bathed in mystery.

You actually experience the shadowlands as part of the death knight intro. You see shadows all around you, it's a shadowy realm, hence why it's called the Shadowlands, darkness surrounding you everywhere with wandering spirits of the dead, tormented and other watchers. This also explains the darkness and the "others" that Sylvanas described.

Now there are other places the spirits can go, for example worgen and night elves are tied to the Emerald Dream, that's where their spirits go when they die, same goes for the majority of animal spirits.

Some dead may become elementals, as elementals have a spirit core. Shadowlands is but one of many destinations, you might also be tortured and stuck in the actual realm and it also seems there is some form of heaven or "Lightlands" as shown through the Crusader Bridenbrad quest in Icecrown Glacier.

And some other dead may be stuck to the real world, in form banshees, spectres and other types of ghosts, why they stick around, I have no clue.

But spirits do not go to the void.

[Qualia]

i´m sure its the void, you should read Silvanas short story again, it can´t be anything else, the description is pointing directly to the void and not the shadowlands, also we don´t know what the valkyrs can o can´t actually do, may be they can bring souls back from the void just that we never saw them do it until Silvanas or if you think about it, they are not resurrecting her the usual way, they are making a bond with her so they can be free from the frozen throne. There are many ways to explain this but i won't argue this pass this point, because as i said, it can only be the void what the story is talking about.

What part of it is pointing towards the Void instead of the Shadowlands? Especially when it was said that mortal souls are drawn towards the Shadowland upon their death. It's not like Sylvanas was consumed by a Void Lord or an Old God, she just jumped and suicided. Additionally, we know what the Valkyr can do:

For this, Odyn studied the energies that permeated the Shadowlands. The knowledge he gained would allow him to transform some vrykul into spectral beings known as Val'kyr. Those wraithlike servants would travel between Shadowlands and the physical world, guiding the souls of the worthy vrykul to the Halls of Valor.

While technically, you can argue that it only said that the Val'kyr were created to travel between Shadowlands & physical word, and it didn't say that they can't get into the Void - it isn't a good argument. Otherwise, we can give characters a lot of abilities just because it wasn't stated that they can't. Unless there are strong hints / implications that they can, I don't think "they might be able to do it because we don't know what else they can do other than what was stated" is good enough to act as the basis of an entire theory.

Also, in additional to what was said about Shadowland (being where souls go upon their death, I guess with the exception of the one being consumed by the Void - which, again, wasn't the case of Sylvanas), we have this description of Void *not* being the realm of the dead:

Void isn't realm of the dead, nether is where demons go. Void is NOTHING. No demons, nothing.

By "nothing", wouldn't it be likely to imply "no soul" as well?

[Piamonte]

What part of it is pointing towards the Void instead of the Shadowlands? Especially when it was said that mortal souls are drawn towards the Shadowland upon their death. It's not like Sylvanas was consumed by a Void Lord or an Old God, she just jumped and suicided.

Wrong forum, had too many banners up... Got lost in them...

Though I can add what others have in form of... Sylvanas did NOT in fact go to the void when she committed suicide. She went to the Shadowlands, it's a death-realm so to speak. It's where most spirits of the dead apparently go. It's not tied to the void, it's not the void... It's creation is bathed in mystery.

You actually experience the shadowlands as part of the death knight intro. You see shadows all around you, it's a shadowy realm, hence why it's called the Shadowlands, darkness surrounding you everywhere with wandering spirits of the dead, tormented and other watchers. This also explains the darkness and the "others" that Sylvanas described.

Now there are other places the spirits can go, for example worgen and night elves are tied to the Emerald Dream, that's where their spirits go when they die, same goes for the majority of animal spirits.

Some dead may become elementals, as elementals have a spirit core. Shadowlands is but one of many destinations, you might also be tortured and stuck in the actual realm and it also seems there is some form of heaven or "Lightlands" as shown through the Crusader Bridenbrad quest in Icecrown Glacier.

And some other dead may be stuck to the real world, in form banshees, spectres and other types of ghosts, why they stick around, I have no clue.

But spirits do not go to the void.

gosh

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner tumbled in a free fall. Not in the physical sense; her body had
been obliterated at the foot of Icecrown Citadel. It was her spirit that tumbled, lost, like
a rudderless ship in a storm.
How had she gotten here? She couldn't remember. Had she been killed by Arthas? Had
she committed suicide? Had she been sent to judgment by the Val'kyr? Time was
meaningless here. Her whole life seemed not a series of events but a single instant, a
pinpoint flash of consciousness in an infinite void.
She saw only darkness.
And then she felt—truly felt, for the first time in a long while. She recoiled. In agony.
Here she was, her spirit once again feeling whole, only to feel it suffer. To feel once
more, only to feel abject pain. Cold. Hopelessness.
Fear.
There were others in the darkness. Things she didn't recognize, because nothing so
terrible could exist in the world of the living. Claws tore at her, but she had no mouth
with which to scream. Eyes looked at her, but she couldn't look back.
Regret.
She sensed a familiar presence. Recognized it. The taunting voice that had once held her
in its grasp. Arthas? Arthas Menethil? Here? His essence rushed to her, desperate, then
shrank away in horrified recognition. The boy who would be Lich King. Just a scared little
blond child, reaping the aftermath of a lifetime of mistakes. If any part of Sylvanas's soul
were not at that moment torn and tormented, she might have even felt—for the first
time—the slightest glimmer of pity for him.
In the grand landscape of all the world's suffering and all the evils of the infinite, the Lich
King was… insignificant.
Now the others had her. Surrounded her. Gleeful, tormenting, tearing at her
consciousness, delighting in her suffering.
Horror.
This was to be her eternity: the endless void, the dark, unknown realm of anguish.

some spirits do go to the void, Arthas went to the void, Silvanas went to the void, and probably countless others, as i said in the first reply, i´m not saying that the void is hell, i´m not saying that all souls go there when they leave their body, i'm saying that some souls for some reasons, like may be being undead, or toying with the void energies, end up going to the void when they die.

It's where most spirits of the dead apparently go. It's not tied to the void, it's not the void...

You are making a lot of assumptions here..

You actually experience the shadowlands as part of the death knight intro. You see shadows all around you, it's a shadowy realm, hence why it's called the Shadowlands, darkness surrounding you everywhere with wandering spirits of the dead, tormented and other watchers. This also explains the darkness and the "others" that Sylvanas described.

compare the description of the shadowlands you wrote here with whats in the paragraphs i showed you, it is clearly a different place and not the shadowlands the short story is talking about.

Additionally, we know what the Valkyr can do:

For this, Odyn studied the energies that permeated the Shadowlands. The knowledge he gained would allow him to transform some vrykul into spectral beings known as Val'kyr. Those wraithlike servants would travel between Shadowlands and the physical world, guiding the souls of the worthy vrykul to the Halls of Valor.
While technically, you can argue that it only said that the Val'kyr were created to travel between Shadowlands & physical word, and it didn't say that they can't get into the Void - it isn't a good argument. Otherwise, we can give characters a lot of abilities just because it wasn't stated that they can't. Unless there are strong hints / implications that they can, I don't think "they might be able to do it because we don't know what else they can do other than what was stated" is good enough to act as the basis of an entire theory.

read the short story pls, first it seems that the valkyr held Silvanas in some sort of limbo but then Silvanas choose not to listen to them and starts falling into what is literally described as an endless void (just read the paragraph i put) and then the val kyrs appear once again to talk to her, this indicate us that they can go to the void as shown in the short story.

[steelballfc]

@Piamonte
so by your Theory which souls go to "nothingness" and which go to Shadowland !?

[Piamonte]

@Piamonte
so by your Theory which souls go to "nothingness" and which go to Shadowland !?

well considering that the place described in the short story is in fact the void, then we can make the assumption that all souls that are in some form touched by void energies, go to the void when they are released from their bodies.

[Qualia]

compare the description of the shadowlands you wrote here with whats in the paragraphs i showed you, it is clearly a different place and not the shadowlands the sort story is talking about.

So basically, you are making assumption that it was the Void because it was described as a realm in which "time was meaningless", "an infinite void", "only darkness", "the endless void, the dark, unknown realm of anguish"?

If so, then I'd like to tell you that those words doesn't make it 100% the Void at all. Could it be the Void? Maybe it could, if we are to go with those descriptions only, but it's not the only option. It was basically a realm of darkness, anguish and an endless void (notice how it was "void" and not "Void" - not necessarily the same thing, even the Great Dark Beyond / physical universe was also described as the void before). That description fits Shadowlands as well - a realm of darkness, an infinite void - as we saw at the Edge of Reality, and a realm of eternity anguish as described in Chronicle.

Additionally, while the description would fit both realm, there are arguments against it - for example, how spirits of the dead are meant to go to Shadowlands, or how the Void "is not a realm of the dead" and "is nothing", or how the Valkyr were created to travel between Shadowlands and the physical universe instead of the Void. Do you have any convincing arguments to refute those points?

Edit: for emphasis

well considering that the place described in the short story is in fact the void, then we can make the assumption that all souls that are in some form touched by void energies, go to the void when they are released from their bodies.

It was described as the void, not the Void. Even the Great Dark Beyond were described as the void before, and I'm sure we can agree that the physical universe is not the Void.

[Piamonte]

i´ll answer you tomorrow, i´m going to sleep now, but to be honest, you are trying a little bit too hard to put my theory down, and when you try that hard is that you know you don´t really have a good argument to make your point.

[Qualia]

i´ll answer you tomorrow, i´m going to sleep now, but to be honest, you are trying a little bit too hard to put my theory down, and when you try that hard is that you know you don´t really have a good argument to make your point.

I'm pretty much just pointing out the flaws of your theory using quotes from Blizzard, and in-game description, trying to show you where your arguments fail. Not sure how that is "trying too hard". Should I just blindly go with what's wrong?

[WolfRider]

Planets are ruled by the 5 elements. Fire, Air, Water and Earth establish the physical aspect of everything : Life, Nature, Lands...
Spirit is the 5th element that can change everything between the "physical" elements :

- Too much of Spirit Element pacifies the 4 others and slows the cycle of Life. The physical Elements can't produce fast enough vessels to receive a soul , so Souls are over crowding the surface. You can see that phenomenon on Draenor in many locations whatever the race.

- A lack of Spirit Element turns the 4 others into furious and destructive elements. Life on that kind of planet turns to be rare and very difficult.

Azeroth was a special case, the Elements were present in a large amount but the nascent Titan in the planet absorbed most of the Spirit Element, leaving a few Spirit Element and the 4 others into a wild fury. As a result it brought 4 Elemental Lords to fight each other until the Old Gods reached the Planet.

The Spirit Element left is used to create life forms. The Elemental lords used it to create beings and enslave them.
Then the Old Gods came and enslaved the Elements and their servants.

So technically speaking, the Spirit Element was enslaved by the 4 other Elemental Lords who served the Old Gods.

Azeroth, who still needed Spirit Element to develop Herself, was in pain because Old Gods were feeding her with corrupted spirit.
When Titans came and defeat the Old Gods, they first exiled the Elemental Lords into special planes, preventing them to interact with each other. There these Elemental Lords couldn't use the Spirit Element anymore. Then Titans imprisoned the Old Gods because they couldn't kill them since these creatures were too deeply implemented into the planet.

But the real deal was the nascent Titan's survival and development so it involves Spirit Element.
Since the Old Gods still were a threat over beings at the surface, they created the Emerald Dream, where uncorrupted Life can be preserved and used as a backup.
They also created Hall of Origination, a weapon that would wipe Azeroth' surface and install the Emerald Dream to reset Life on the planet.
But they also built the Shadowlands, Azeroth's trashcan. If a Soul is corrupted, it is sent to this spiritual plane to prevent it to return to the planet.
It's a toxic wasteland.
Nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything change.
If the Spirit Element is made of souls, each corrupted soul tips the scale in favour of the Old Gods (and the Void) when it returns to the Spiritual plane.
And because Azeroth feeds herself with the Spirit Element, Titans had to split the Spiritual plane in two (Emerald Dream and Shadowlands) to prevent her to be corrupted.

So, no matter how much Old Gods there is/was on Azeroth, if someone or somebody releases the Shadowlands over the planet, it will pour the Void's corruption in the Spirit Element and corrupt Azeroth.

On the other hand, if someone or somebody corrupts the Emerald Dream, it will also threat the Spirit Element.

If we stop the Legion, we're still threatened by that scenario, and I bet that N'Zoth will play a big role in the future because of that.

[Piamonte]

So basically, you are making assumption that it was the Void because it was described as a realm in which "time was meaningless", "an infinite void", "only darkness", "the endless void, the dark, unknown realm of anguish"?

If so, then I'd like to tell you that those words doesn't make it 100% the Void at all. Could it be the Void? Maybe it could, if we are to go with those descriptions only, but it's not the only option. It was basically a realm of darkness, anguish and an endless void (notice how it was "void" and not "Void" - not necessarily the same thing.

It´s the void and not the Void, because the word is used as a description and not as a name, it is writen this way because of a writing technique, back then the Void wasn´t as known to us as it is now, so the autor is foreshadowing that piece of the lore: the void as a separate realm of our universe.

That description fits Shadowlands as well - a realm of darkness, an infinite void - as we saw at the Edge of Reality, and a realm of eternity anguish as described in Chronicle.

Can you please post here the full description of the Shadowlands in Chronicles because from what i gathered in internet from sites like wowpedia and the dk intro questline is that it is a copy of the real world, if that is the case, then it has a ground where spirits can stand and places where spirits can go. In the short story, Silvanas is depicted as falling and surrounded OF nothing else than darknes and those weird entities that are torturing her. To me both places are so different from each other that you can easilly tell them apart from one another.

Additionally, while the description would fit both realm, there are arguments against it - for example, how spirits of the dead are meant to go to Shadowlands, or how the Void "is not a realm of the dead" and "is nothing", or how the Valkyr were created to travel between Shadowlands and the physical universe instead of the Void. Do you have any convincing arguments to refute those points?

i already answered this

Edit: for emphasis

It was described as the void, not the Void. Even the Great Dark Beyond were described as the void before, and I'm sure we can agree that the physical universe is not the Void.

this is a retcon and not relevant to the discussion

[vilememory]

This is a nice theory and I like it, however, there isn't enough information out yet to confirm it. As stated there are some holes but also there are things to counteract those holes. I do like the idea, but I think we will need another Chronicle volume or two to made it more definitive.

[Piamonte]

This is a nice theory and I like it, however, there isn't enough information out yet to confirm it. As stated there are some holes but also there are things to counteract those holes. I do like the idea, but I think we will need another Chronicle volume or two to made it more definitive.

yeah i knwo there is a lot of info missing regarding old gods and the void but still.. thank you!

[Netherspark]

There are multiple references in the game to the Old Gods devouring souls.

[Qualia]

It´s the void and not the Void, because the word is used as a description and not as a name, it is writen this way because of a writing technique, back then the Void wasn´t as known to us as it is now, so the autor is foreshadowing that piece of the lore: the void as a separate realm of our universe.

It actually isn't always the case. There is a difference between the void (an empty space) and the Void (one of the two most fundamental cosmic forces in existence). A dimension / world / zone / area could be described as the void without being the Void, just like how the Voidlords aren't the same as the Void Lords. One capitalized letter makes a lot of difference. Knowing that, your theory that Sylvanas went to the Void instead of the Shadowlands based on the description that it was "the endless void, the dark, unknown realm of anguish." might not hold because that can be used to described the Shadowlands, too - and actually even specific places within the Nether, I'd guess. Here I will show you why is "the endless void" doesn't necessarily means "the Void".

Your argument that before Chronicle, since the Void wasn't known, the authors just referred it as the void (without capitalized V) has its merits. However, there are evidences that it isn't the case. The Twisting Nether & the Great Dark Beyond were still referred as "the void" even during and after Chronicle was being released, so you can't really claim that it was a retcon.

Twisting Nether was still being referred as "the void" even while Chronicle was being done. For example, Archimonde's scream in HFC when he pulls you into the Twisting Nether ("The infinite darkness shall claim you!" and "You will never escape the endless void!") - the Nether was directly referred as "the endless void" here, as you can see.
The Great Dark Beyond, our physical universe, was also called "a void" & "the void" multiple time in "Illidan" - which was released *after* Chronicle. For example:

<...>
A tiny worldlet that floated in a void too vast for any mind to encompass.
<...>
Through the void trailed the snake of energy he had summoned, guiding him outward into infinity.
<...>
He followed the intricate pattern of runes out into the Twisting Nether. His spirit flashed through the void, and once again, Argus appeared beneath him

See? Even after the Void is made known, other dimensions / area can still be referred as "the void", "a void", "the endless void" without being the same as the Void. Now let's get to the Shadowlands' case.

Can you please post here the full description of the Shadowlands in Chronicles because from what i gathered in internet from sites like wowpedia and the dk intro questline is that it is a copy of the real world, if that is the case, then it has a ground where spirits can stand and places where spirits can go. In the short story, Silvanas is depicted as falling and surrounded OF nothing else than darknes and those weird entities that are torturing her. To me both places are so different from each other that you can easilly tell them apart from one another.

There isn't any solid description of the Shadowlands' appearances in Chronicle. This is all about it:

Like the Emerald Dream, the Shadowlands are tangentially linked to the world of Azeroth. Yet whereas the Emerald Dream represents life, the Shadowlands represent death. They are nightmarish realms of decay, labyrinthine spiritual planes teeming with the souls of the dead who have passed from the world of the living.
The origins of the Shadowlands remain uncertain, but they have existed ever since mortal life first arose in the physical universe. Many believe that mortal souls are drawn into this dark place at the point of death, where they remain forever after. Still others hope that their souls will go on to a brighter place, rather than languish for eternity within the cold confines of the Shadowlands.

The copy of real world, with a ground and everything in gray are likely the Realm of Shadows. It might be part of the Shadowlands, but that doesn't mean it's the Shadowlands. You probably have noticed - Shadowlands, and "realms of decay", "spiritual planes" are all in plural, not singular. There are more than one realm / plane / layer there. Now, you may argue against this, but I'm not guessing randomly based on its name or Chronicle's description alone - we've actually seen a layer Shadowlands being a void instead of the copy of real world before.

Come back to Shadowmoon Burial Ground. During the encounter with Ner'zhul, he shattered and brought us & the platform into the Edge of Reality. Where is this "Edge of Reality"? In Shadowlands - seeing that Ner'zhul as screaming "Come, strangers! Cross into the realm of the Shadowlands. I shall deliver you into your death.", and the portal to it has a tooltip that says "Enter the Shadowlands". Now, look around and under the platform that was brought into Shadowlands by Ner'zhul. You are in Shadowlands, what do you see? Not a copy of real world, but just a realm of darkness, an endless void, there is no ground. Sounds familiar here?
Then, you may argue that while Shadowlands was a realm of darkness and an endless void as we can see from the Edge of Reality, *maybe* Blizzard wouldn't call it "the void". Then, let me introduce you to Shao-Tien spirit dagger, an item that - using in-game tooltip here - "Allows the wielders to pass into the Spirit Void". Moreover, there is the "Voidtalon of the Dark Star" egg whose tooltip read as "...Only a single egg remains, lost in the void" - where was that egg in the void? At the Edge of Reality, in Shadowlands. So the Shadowlands is referred as the void by Blizzard just fine.

Now that we've cleared that fact that the "the endless void, the dark, unknown realm of anguish." description can be applied to Shadowlands (and probably even some parts Twisting Nether) too, do you still have any strong enough argument to convince us that it MUST be the Void? We even have a view of one plane in Shadowlands being all darkness and an infinite void. Meanwhile, there are information from Blizzard that you said "I've answered this", but I haven't seen any answer at all. Would you mind addressing these points again? That
* Mortal souls are drawn to Shadowlands upon death, not the Void ("Many believe that mortal souls are drawn into this dark place at the point of death, where they remain forever after.") and Sylvanas wasn't consumed by a Void Lord, an Old God, or dropped through a portal into the Void - she just jumped and died.
* The Void is *NOT* a realm of the dead, as quoted from Muffinus' twitter ("Void isn't realm of the dead, nether is where demons go. Void is NOTHING. No demons, nothing.")
* And finally, the Valkys were created to travel between Shadowlands & physical world. There is no indication that they can travel to the Void as well (not saying they can't, but since there is no hint of this, you can't use it as an argument)


All in all, I'm not saying there it MUST NOT be the Void. There is a tiny chance that it is. However, at the time being, every evidences seem to point out that it is the Shadowlands. I haven't seen any solid argument to convince us that Sylvanas was in the Void.

There are multiple references in the game to the Old Gods devouring souls.

Yes, they can. Yet, Sylvanas weren't devoured by an Old God, or a Void Lord, or tossed into a portal to the Void back then. She just jumped and died. The closest Old God (Yogg) was even dead by then.

[Piamonte]

The Great Dark Beyond, our physical universe, was also called "a void" & "the void" multiple time in "Illidan" - which was released *after* Chronicle. For example:

<...>
A tiny worldlet that floated in a void too vast for any mind to encompass.
<...>
Through the void trailed the snake of energy he had summoned, guiding him outward into infinity.
<...>
He followed the intricate pattern of runes out into the Twisting Nether. His spirit flashed through the void, and once again, Argus appeared beneath him

yeah the warcraft books are canon, but c´mon they have so many errors because of the writers not puting their shit together o blizzard not being clear while explaining to them what they want. When you read a warcraft book (not counting Chronicles here) you have to maintain a really general view of what you are reading, you can´t take every single detail as official part of the lore.

Meanwhile, there are information from Blizzard that you said "I've answered this", but I haven't seen any answer at all. Would you mind addressing these points again? That
* Mortal souls are drawn to Shadowlands upon death, not the Void ("Many believe that mortal souls are drawn into this dark place at the point of death, where they remain forever after.") and Sylvanas wasn't consumed by a Void Lord, an Old God, or dropped through a portal into the Void - she just jumped and died.
* The Void is *NOT* a realm of the dead, as quoted from Muffinus' twitter ("Void isn't realm of the dead, nether is where demons go. Void is NOTHING. No demons, nothing.")

I´m not saying dead people go to the void, i´m saying that some souls for some particular reasons go to the void when they are free from their bodies, may be because they dwelled in void magic, may be because they were sent there by another person or something along this lines

It actually isn't always the case. There is a difference between the void (an empty space) and the Void (one of the two most fundamental cosmic forces in existence). A dimension / world / zone / area could be described as the void without being the Void, just like how the Voidlords aren't the same as the Void Lords. One capitalized letter makes a lot of difference. Knowing that, your theory that Sylvanas went to the Void instead of the Shadowlands based on the description that it was "the endless void, the dark, unknown realm of anguish." might not hold because that can be used to described the Shadowlands, too - and actually even specific places within the Nether, I'd guess. Here I will show you why is "the endless void" doesn't necessarily means "the Void".

Your argument that before Chronicle, since the Void wasn't known, the authors just referred it as the void (without capitalized V) has its merits. However, there are evidences that it isn't the case. The Twisting Nether & the Great Dark Beyond were still referred as "the void" even during and after Chronicle was being released, so you can't really claim that it was a retcon.

Twisting Nether was still being referred as "the void" even while Chronicle was being done. For example, Archimonde's scream in HFC when he pulls you into the Twisting Nether ("The infinite darkness shall claim you!" and "You will never escape the endless void!") - the Nether was directly referred as "the endless void" here, as you can see.

Archimonde and many other demons are known for using void magic, so he could actually mean that he is sending the players to the void as a way to make them pay for everything they have done to the legion, still, this is the first good example that you give me regarding the use of the word "void".

we've actually seen a layer Shadowlands being a void instead of the copy of real world before.

Come back to Shadowmoon Burial Ground. During the encounter with Ner'zhul, he shattered and brought us & the platform into the Edge of Reality. Where is this "Edge of Reality"? In Shadowlands - seeing that Ner'zhul as screaming "Come, strangers! Cross into the realm of the Shadowlands. I shall deliver you into your death.", and the portal to it has a tooltip that says "Enter the Shadowlands". Now, look around and under the platform that was brought into Shadowlands by Ner'zhul. You are in Shadowlands, what do you see? Not a copy of real world, but just a realm of darkness, an endless void, there is no ground. Sounds familiar here?
Then, you may argue that while Shadowlands was a realm of darkness and an endless void as we can see from the Edge of Reality, *maybe* Blizzard wouldn't call it "the void". Then, let me introduce you to Shao-Tien spirit dagger, an item that - using in-game tooltip here - "Allows the wielders to pass into the Spirit Void". Moreover, there is the "Voidtalon of the Dark Star" egg whose tooltip read as "...Only a single egg remains, lost in the void" - where was that egg in the void? At the Edge of Reality, in Shadowlands. So the Shadowlands is referred as the void by Blizzard just fine.

Now that we've cleared that fact that the "the endless void, the dark, unknown realm of anguish." description can be applied to Shadowlands (and probably even some parts Twisting Nether) too, do you still have any strong enough argument to convince us that it MUST be the Void? We even have a view of one plane in Shadowlands being all darkness and an infinite void.

And finally, the Valkys were created to travel between Shadowlands & physical world. There is no indication that they can travel to the Void as well (not saying they can't, but since there is no hint of this, you can't use it as an argument)

All in all, I'm not saying there it MUST NOT be the Void. There is a tiny chance that it is. However, at the time being, every evidences seem to point out that it is the Shadowlands. I haven't seen any solid argument to convince us that Sylvanas was in the Void.

There were others in the darkness. Things she didn't recognize, because nothing so
terrible could exist in the world of the living.

These are the void lords, and the void lords can only be found in the Void

See? Even after the Void is made known, other dimensions / area can still be referred as "the void", "a void", "the endless void" without being the same as the Void. Now let's get to the Shadowlands' case.

There isn't any solid description of the Shadowlands' appearances in Chronicle. This is all about it:

Like the Emerald Dream, the Shadowlands are tangentially linked to the world of Azeroth. Yet whereas the Emerald Dream represents life, the Shadowlands represent death. They are nightmarish realms of decay, labyrinthine spiritual planes teeming with the souls of the dead who have passed from the world of the living.
The origins of the Shadowlands remain uncertain, but they have existed ever since mortal life first arose in the physical universe. Many believe that mortal souls are drawn into this dark place at the point of death, where they remain forever after. Still others hope that their souls will go on to a brighter place, rather than languish for eternity within the cold confines of the Shadowlands.

The copy of real world, with a ground and everything in gray are likely the Realm of Shadows. It might be part of the Shadowlands, but that doesn't mean it's the Shadowlands. You probably have noticed - Shadowlands, and "realms of decay", "spiritual planes" are all in plural, not singular. There are more than one realm / plane / layer there.

i agree on the layers thing. It just occured to me:

In the beginning there was only void and light (and also the twisting nether i think), if you think about it, after the universe was created, everything you could find inside it that is related to the shadow/void must have come in one way or another from the first void that predated existence, so continuing your though about the layers of the Shadowlands, may be these, the Shadowlands, the realm of shadow, etc, they are all layers from the original void that were created when the universe came to be.