Are all dk now enemies/traitors to the horde?

[FelPlague]

Right now, the Dks should be enemies of the Horde, the alliance and the Silver Hand, as they have seriously pissed off all three of them. They raised a warhero of the horde and one of the most important Kings of Humanity, killed the Forsaken of Stromgarde, freed a traitor of the Horde and attacked Light's Hope Chapel. Hell, if Blizz was more into realistic politics, the Death Knights would be seriously fucked, as pissing off the Paladins alone probably also pisses of the Alliance, as Paladins have a deep social influence to the Alliance, they are THE role models for Humans, Draenei and religious Dwarfs.

Probably nothing will happen.

the paladins go to the death kngihts aying "yo for what you fuckers did you have to empower my weapon" and to stop the conflict they agree, and empower ashbringer, also its only your character that is part of a faction, the other death knights are just that, ebon blade, most of the ebon blade is just death knights, no alliance or horde

thats been basically a thing since wrath, you were sent in as a ambassador of the ebon blade, the main death knight to empose the part

[Deleted]

the paladins go to the death kngihts aying "yo for what you fuckers did you have to empower my weapon" and to stop the conflict they agree, and empower ashbringer, also its only your character that is part of a faction, the other death knights are just that, ebon blade, most of the ebon blade is just death knights, no alliance or horde

I'm sure as hell that the Corrupted Ashbringer Quest is not canon but simply some bonus and I hope that we will get new Class Questlines with coming patches.

[Jester Joe]

Making deals with the enemy you were ordered to eliminate is mere failing. OK then. I specifically worded the second part of that paragraph in a way on how your twist (omitting important details) still makes Koltira's actions punishable. And before that I outright answered your question about treason in the first sentence.




She was Warchief before the Ebon Blade attacked so I'm not sure how that does not matter. The Ebon Blade attacked the capital city of the Forsaken (potentially the Horde now) and Sylvanas' seat of power knowing full well she's the Warchief and yet you somehow managed to pretend that's only attack against the Forsaken (wait, no, Sylvanas alone) and as such Sylvanas is in the wrong because she angered more people from tiny Ebon Blade (in the form of multiversal army of Thassarians, I suppose).




Did I say it's relevant to your original post? No. The literacy levels of this forum fill me with dread sometimes. It is relevant to, you know, the post I actually replied to. In which you stretched your original post on how Sylvanas is in the wrong because she earned the ire of more people. And it's relevant because that was incorrect, the Ebon Blade didn't really care and it was Thassarian's private request.

And you didn't say she's a fool. You said she's more at fault for merely keeping a hostage than the people attacking the Horde over a hostage. Which would be like saying that in scenario in which during WWII USSR imprisoned their general (that was formerly US citizen) for treason and then refused US' demands of his release USSR would be the worse party even if US sent soldiers to attack Moscow in a covert operation. Forsaken are USSR, US is Ebon Blade, Nazis are Legion.

Not to mention he wasn't a hostage, he was a prisoner. Even ignoring the circumstances of his imprisonment or him joining the Forsaken army, for him to be a hostage Sylvanas would need to want something from the Ebon Blade for his release. But she outright ignored them. And considering that you straw-manned me multiple times already I kinda don't feel particularly friendly right now. I'm capricious like that.




He conspired with the enemy because of his personal ties to said enemy. Behind Sylvanas' back (by his own admission even, he tells the player to keep quiet).




By your logic Anduin is more at fault than the Ebon Blade (who attack the enemies of the Legion left, right and center) for not opening the Stockades and letting everyone out. Hell, pretty much everyone is more at fault than the Ebon Blade for not releasing N'zoth from his prison. Also imprisoned, also unreleased by the people less-at-fault-than-the-Ebon-Blade (though in this case it does include the Ebon Blade so it's kind of a paradox I think), much more useful against the Legion than one Death Knight with penchant for needing rescuing by Thassarian.

I'm just gonna stop this here, since you just complained about literacy, yet missed that I said my original point, not my original post. I didn't say she was a fool, I implied it by saying she was making a bad decision. If you want to keep rallying behind saying Koltira did something awful, go ahead, but aside from pointing out he wasn't actually a traitor, I said several times what he did was still punishable and wrong. That being said, his punishment could of easily just been exilement for his failure.

You clearly have intents to just make this overly hostile though, so like I said, I'm dropping this here. If you want to actually discuss this without the mocking, I'm all ears though.

[Mehrunes]

I'm sure as hell that the Corrupted Ashbringer Quest is not canon but simply some bonus and I hope that we will get new Class Questlines with coming patches.

Well, it's hard to say. It's still a quest and as such a source of lore until stated otherwise. On the other hand, it unlocks an Ashbringer skin, so it's kinda unlikely Ashbringer having 25 different looks all at once is the actual lore (or the whole Paladins corrupting Ashbringer and the Silver Hand being all fine and dandy with the idea given Tirion's sacrifice and last words). But back to pro-canon argument, many quests mention powering-up our Artifacts so the skin and corruption may be not canon (or sort of hypothetical state), but the power-up part would still be official. Well, I'd say we'd need Blizzard officially stepping in and taking a position one way or another, but I'd (very slightly) lean towards canon for now.

[Aucald]

They are not really Horde members other than those who joined so they wouldn't really be considered traitors as much as just an enemy. And I'm not seeing the connection. Let's say the Horde didn't know about Koltira's imprisonment. That doesn't prevent them learning it now (which doesn't change much). Even them not learning it doesn't change much if they become aware Ebon Blade attacked them. As for covering tracks, I am doubtful due to time constraints. And Thassarian is Frost. He couldn't ress his skeleton pal. I wouldn't say necromancy is his strongest forte. With the PC being of unspecified spec and unspecified strengths and weaknesses it's hard to make judgments on their influence of events in such detail.

I imagine that the Ebon Blade works as a contractual provider of specialist talent to both the Horde and Alliance. They aren't clients of either faction in the same way the Darkspear or Mulgore Tauren are - so the bonds of loyalty are more fluid and less cleanly defined. Even if the Horde leadership did care about the casualties stemming from the operation to free Koltira they might not want to put the flow of specialist Death Knights at risk. As for covering their tracks, I was referring to the PC Death Knight being the Deathlord - empowered by the Lich King to raise and anoint Horsemen. I'd imagine ensuring a few Abomination mooks can't be raised with intact memories (or at all) wouldn't be an issue for them.

Hunters take on Hakkar and ruin his magic-immune hounds. Mages take on a Dreadlord that was thorn in the side of Mage-kind for centuries. Priests and Paladins take on Balnazzar and ruin his attack on Netherlight. Warriors ruin Legion plot in Northrend (maybe more, don't know the details). Demon Hunters taken on Felsworn. Rogues ruin Detheroc's infiltration of SI:7 that could have led to outright faction war had his influence spread even further. Druids do damage control on Nightmare's spread and with Xavius being Legion's pawn again it's still related to Legion. Monks most likely purse the Eredar that fucked up Peak of Serenity and as such foil Legion plans in Pandaria. Warlocks steal Eredar Twins from Mephistroth and subjugate a Legion world.

I'd say that's an alright involvement for 10 out of 12 Classes. Kinda ahead of the Horde and the Alliance. Other than the Monks on which I'm only speculating, the only ones that aren't really involved against the Legion are Shamans and even they manage to gather something kinda more impressive to use against the Legion than the Horsemen. The previous Horsemen's biggest achievement was rolling over and dying twice (once in case of Alexandros and Rivendare). And the new ones are created by a weaker Lich King.

Death Knights seem focused primarily on creating an army to take on the Legion directly - to that end they recruit an order of Horsemen surpassing the original creations of Kel'thuzad, create a new type of superior Abomination, craft potent weaponry and armor for their basic infantry, and generally assemble a force dedicated to defeating the worst the Legion can offer. The other Class Order Halls make small gains against the Legion and take out a few auxiliaries, but not much more. It remains to be seen what will happen in future content patches.

[Deleted]

Koltira had the orders to take Andorhal for the Forsaken. To that end, he had to get the rest of the Scourge out, which he did. While doing that, Alliance forces were there too. After the fight against the Scourge both sides were kind of winded and both generals agreed upon a ceasefire, which was the right direction to go if you were going to give your own forces a chance to recover from a battle that had just taken place.
Then some farmers from Westfall decided, even though the military commanders said the region was still contested and counted as battlefield and they should not by any means move any further than Chillwind, that they knew better and attacked the Forsaken. They got slaughtered and Sylvanas decided Koltira was up for some brainwashing.
While it is ofc ok to call out your general for some serious mishaps and the fact that he had no kind of intelligence gathered from the Alliance forces and simply relied on Thassarians word that there would be a ceasefire, it was still only a failure on his part and by no means treason. And brainwashing someone into a mindless state was still considered evil at that point by the forsaken in general, but that was exactly what Sylvanas said she was going to do.
While I agree that simply going to Undercity and getting Koltira out was not a diplomatic approch, I also think that Sylvanas will not want to really pressure the point, because I don't think she wants people to know about her thing with Koltira.

So I guess, even the Horde DKs will maybe have to put up with Sylvanas not being very amused with it, but I don't think there is going to be a huge fuss.
And I sure hope having Koltira as a follower means he's not going to make a joke out of himself more than he already did in both the DK starting zone and in Andorhal. He's so horrible ^^

[Mehrunes]

Then why even mention the lich king being weaker if you're just going to admit there's more at play?

Because it's still a factor. And the Horsemen chosen were mostly weaklings in life. The only one of the new recruits that exhibited something decent in undeath was Nazgrim and that's force-choking few people at a time (pretty sure Dranosh force chocked more people at once when he was a Death Knight). And I still don't see how that's remotely comparable to any of the Elemental Lords.

I'm just gonna stop this here, since you just complained about literacy, yet missed that I said my original point, not my original post.

And where did you make this original point? In another thread?

I didn't say she was a fool, I implied it by saying she was making a bad decision.

And no, I haven't done the DK quest, never claimed to either, nor is that really relevant to my original point of Sylvanas being a fool by holding someone who could be of use hostage.

If you want to keep rallying behind saying Koltira did something awful, go ahead, but aside from pointing out he wasn't actually a traitor, I said several times what he did was still punishable and wrong. That being said, his punishment could of easily just been exilement for his failure.

And your pointing out he wasn't actually a traitor consisted of pointing out how he went against his orders, conspired with his friend on the enemy side, did so behind Sylvanas' back (failing at that by the way, so he's super competent) and in doing all of that fucked the Forsaken over (because even all of the above aside, he didn't prepare a contingency plan in case of an Alliance attack after the Scourge was dealt with despite Thassarian warning him they are going to be enemies once that's done, which is yet another argument against his competency even existing). And the punishment for that, going in the other direction, could have easily been execution. Which it should have been, given how Stillwater was executed for less.

[FelPlague]

I'm sure as hell that the Corrupted Ashbringer Quest is not canon but simply some bonus and I hope that we will get new Class Questlines with coming patches.

idk, it could be cannon, who knows, we will have to see though

[Shoat]

Breaking into undercity to get koltira is an internal horde matter (the player character is a horde champion) or an alliance infiltration act, but not an open assault by one faction (ebon knights) upon the other (horde).

I guess Paladins are in the wrong for not handing Tirion's body over too. And I'm sure Stockades are still packed with criminals, let's go in and recruit these trustworthy people there. They could be assets.

To be fair, those are both good ideas.
A) There's literally no reason NOT to bring Tyrone back. We need him. There's at least one other death knight who was able to still use holy powers (he was even part of the original horsemen, and unlike that guy who was forced to do arthas' bidding, a risen tyrone would be given free will by the ebon knights), so there's obviously no compatibility issue with holiness and deathknighthood. The only thing standing in the way is people being whiny and not WANTING to use the tools we have available.
To be fair, it was stupid of us to just sneak into there instead of talking to the paladins first and trying to argue and convince them how important tyrone is ("bro, either you raise him or we do, we need him back" or somesuch).
B) Worthless criminals do make for decent enough frontline soldiers (numbers are something we desperately lack compared to the legion), if you don't trust them make 'em into ghouls, but either way any help is appreciated against the legion.

And you know what? Both of those extreme-sounding things aren't nearly as unethical as the stuff that illidan did in outland "for the sake of fighting the legion", yet people here in the forums rush to defend him very readily and get all mad at past-us for killing him (or at altruis for having ethics and rebelling against him).

[omeomorfismo]

It is especially awkward for my fiercely loyal forsaken death knight, breaking out a traitor HE HELPED CAPTURE, and killing Undercity Abominations... using his pet abomination I like to think came from Undercity. He did give them all valentines every year.

Though, I would argue that killing Galen and the undead in Stromgarde was not an act of treason. They were about to commit open rebellion against the Forsaken. Killing them is no different than killing the Rotbrains and rebels in Tirisfal.

i think that canonically a dk forsaken never did the quests in andorhal. after all they are 1° generation forsakens, meanwhile in that battle fought only the heroes generation trained after the fall of lich king. and probably for a DK view point an abomination is nothing more than a replaceable siege weapon. but effectively a DK forsaken is a bit strange in this situation D:

[Jester Joe]

Because it's still a factor. And the Horsemen chosen were mostly weaklings in life. The only one of the new recruits that exhibited something decent in undeath was Nazgrim and that's force-choking few people at a time (pretty sure Dranosh force chocked more people at once when he was a Death Knight). And I still don't see how that's remotely comparable to any of the Elemental Lords.




And where did you make this original point? In another thread?








And your pointing out he wasn't actually a traitor consisted of pointing out how he went against his orders, conspired with his friend on the enemy side, did so behind Sylvanas' back (failing at that by the way, so he's super competent) and in doing all of that fucked the Forsaken over (because even all of the above aside, he didn't prepare a contingency plan in case of an Alliance attack after the Scourge was dealt with despite Thassarian warning him they are going to be enemies once that's done, which is yet another argument against his competency even existing). And the punishment for that, going in the other direction, could have easily been execution. Which it should have been, given how Stillwater was executed for less.

Well, first off I do appreciate the tone down. I know the lore forums can get frustrating at times due to opinion clashes.

Quick response, since I'm on my phone which keeps redirecting to bad ads.

First off, yes. Shamans did do a hell of a lot more if we compared elementals to dks, but that's not to say dks aren't useful yet either. We need to see if they actually pay off later on (which I would hope so, blizzard is aiming high by having all the classes having their own story, since it would be lame to end up having, let's say like, only shamans seeing what the elemental lords do)

Original point, I meant by when I said I consider Sylvanas at fault a bit more in terms of ebon blade knights coming after koltira. Yeah, he screwed up and she could of executed him, but she chose to recondition him instead, so she must of thought he'd be useful for something.

Maybe he's a failure in terms of commanding (seems like it so far), but at the least even a weak dk should be useful against the legion, hence why I think it was a bad move for her to not just let him go when the legion attacked so he could fight too

[Deleted]

idk, it could be cannon, who knows, we will have to see though

I think it's not really logical that the Paladin is going to corrupt it again without redemption...or that Darion would even do it.

Or that without a reason Radens Fist or Doomhammer are turned into Troll Weapons...

Or that we forge a mere arcanite Reaper out of Strom'kar.

I would consider most of the bonus Skins simply bonus skins. Thats the same with quests that involve machine guns, that are not canon as Azeroth is still on flintlock guns. I hope the Class Campaigns will go on in 7.2 and we will see how the Silver Hand reacts canonical to the attack on Light's Hope.

[Mehrunes]

I imagine that the Ebon Blade works as a contractual provider of specialist talent to both the Horde and Alliance. They aren't clients of either faction in the same way the Darkspear or Mulgore Tauren are - so the bonds of loyalty are more fluid and less cleanly defined. Even if the Horde leadership did care about the casualties stemming from the operation to free Koltira they might not want to put the flow of specialist Death Knights at risk. As for covering their tracks, I was referring to the PC Death Knight being the Deathlord - empowered by the Lich King to raise and anoint Horsemen. I'd imagine ensuring a few Abomination mooks can't be raised with intact memories (or at all) wouldn't be an issue for them.

Ehh, don't think they are anything more than a neutral faction. I mean, sure, they have agents that joined the factions because PCs (but I'd argue they work more as liasons between Ebon Blade and playable factions), but members of neutral factions also being members of the Horde or Alliance isn't unique and happens with the Earthen Ring and Cenarion Circle too. What I'd say is fluid is the level of attachment DKs have with the Ebon Blade. Like Koltira and Thassarian following the PCs in joining the factions, then going back to Ebon Blade for life. As for preventing resurrection, I can't really think of anything working like that other than destroying the bodies, which we didn't see in the scenario or purifying them with holy stuff (also unseen and in this case, extremely unlikely).

Death Knights seem focused primarily on creating an army to take on the Legion directly - to that end they recruit an order of Horsemen surpassing the original creations of Kel'thuzad, create a new type of superior Abomination, craft potent weaponry and armor for their basic infantry, and generally assemble a force dedicated to defeating the worst the Legion can offer. The other Class Order Halls make small gains against the Legion and take out a few auxiliaries, but not much more. It remains to be seen what will happen in future content patches.

Well, surpassing the original Horsemen isn't a particularly high bar to pass and it's yet to be seen if they actually achieve that. And demons like Balnazzar or Mephistroth aren't auxiliaries, they are Legion's generals. Even Eredar Twins, which are now under Mephistroth were one of final bastions in defense of last Legion attack. Even Hakkar, who is in kind of lore-mess right now being degraded to just Fel Guard (but last time we officially heard of his position in Legion during WotA, was pretty important), was an extreme risk nonetheless given how his anti-magic hounds would nullify one of Azeroth's greatest potentials. And while with even high position these individual demons may be relatively small losses for the Legion, the campaigns also achieved preventing much more significant losses on our side.

And it's not like what the Death Knights are doing is unique. Even Warlocks, who start the campaign focusing on power unlimited with fucking the Legion over only as a secondary objective and switched it only when things got personal got an artifact capable of enslaving demons and empowered it to the point where it can work on powerful Man'ari, train new mooks and have Hurr and Durr craft Infernals.

[Deleted]

Right now, the Dks should be enemies of the Horde, the alliance and the Silver Hand, as they have seriously pissed off all three of them. They raised a warhero of the horde and one of the most important Kings of Humanity, killed the Forsaken of Stromgarde, freed a traitor of the Horde and attacked Light's Hope Chapel. Hell, if Blizz was more into realistic politics, the Death Knights would be seriously fucked, as pissing off the Paladins alone probably also pisses of the Alliance, as Paladins have a deep social influence to the Alliance, they are THE role models for Humans, Draenei and religious Dwarfs.

Probably nothing will happen.

To be fair if blizzard was more realistic, the forsaken would be fucked as they have become exactly what the argent crusade and ebon hold fight against.

Sure ebon holdt using many of the scourge fighting elements but they don't do it for personal gain so to speak. They fight fire with fire.
And eventhough a dk has an ability raise army i've never seen a DK raise a killed foe except once for interrogation.
And their not making mass plague weapon.

To me it felt like the DK had much higher allegiance to ebon hold than the factions than those in Argent Crusade.
I still think the most realistic neutrals are ones to be in favour of the status qou, helping in defending those they have bigger ties with but wont help in a assaulting war, unless something extreme happened against their most closely tied allies in a bad way.
Because of this I found Thrall the most realistic neutral, the way Kirin Tor acted in defense of Theramore made sense as well.

What didn't made sense is how everyone reacted to what was happening in northern eastern kingdoms. For example Dalaran and ARgent Crusade probably had relatives in those villages in Hillsbrad and forsaken wiped them out without them reacting.

[Deleted]

To be fair if blizzard was more realistic, the forsaken would be fucked as they have become exactly what the argent crusade and ebon hold fight against.

Sure ebon holdt using many of the scourge fighting elements but they don't do it for personal gain so to speak. They fight fire with fire.
And eventhough a dk has an ability raise army i've never seen a DK raise a killed foe except once for interrogation.
And their not making mass plague weapon.

To me it felt like the DK had much higher allegiance to ebon hold than the factions than those in Argent Crusade.
I still think the most realistic neutrals are ones to be in favour of the status qou, helping in defending those they have bigger ties with but wont help in a assaulting war, unless something extreme happened against their most closely tied allies in a bad way.
Because of this I found Thrall the most realistic neutral, the way Kirin Tor acted in defense of Theramore made sense as well.

What didn't made sense is how everyone reacted to what was happening in northern eastern kingdoms. For example Dalaran and ARgent Crusade probably had relatives in those villages in Hillsbrad and forsaken wiped them out without them reacting.

The funny thing is, many of the RP Paladins I know on the Aldor left the Argent Crusade or dislike them because of their neutrality towards the Forsaken. The Paladin of a Friend of mine was a member of the Argent Crusade, but left it behind and began disliking it because they did nothing to safe the humans in Lordaeron.

[Friendlyimmolation]

To be fair if blizzard was more realistic, the forsaken would be fucked as they have become exactly what the argent crusade and ebon hold fight against.

I wouldnt call a nation of free willed undeath the equal of a rampaging mindless scourge looking to end all life.

And their not making mass plague weapon.

Anyone who complains about the plague fails to understand that there are much worse ways to kill someone with plague.

What didn't made sense is how everyone reacted to what was happening in northern eastern kingdoms. For example Dalaran and ARgent Crusade probably had relatives in those villages in Hillsbrad and forsaken wiped them out without them reacting.

The magi of Ambermill were trying to help the Alliance take over lordaeron, the Forsaken killed them. The humans of Hillbarad had been fighting for years with the forsaken and were part of the Alliance, the Forsaken killed them. The Argent Crusade is neutral, and the Forsaken havent attacked them. If the people of Hillsbarad wanted peace with the forsaken. joining the Argent Dawn would have been the way to do it.

[Deleted]

I wouldnt call a nation of free willed undeath the equal of a rampaging mindless scourge looking to end all life.



Anyone who complains about the plague fails to understand that there are much worse ways to kill someone with plague.



The magi of Ambermill were trying to help the Alliance take over lordaeron, the Forsaken killed them. The humans of Hillbarad had been fighting for years with the forsaken and were part of the Alliance, the Forsaken killed them. The Argent Crusade is neutral, and the Forsaken havent attacked them. If the people of Hillsbarad wanted peace with the forsaken. joining the Argent Dawn would have been the way to do it.

You miss the point there. Yeah, they are neutral. But still, most Members of the Argent Crusades are human believers of the Light from Lordaeron who vowed to protect the Innocent.

[Friendlyimmolation]

You miss the point there. Yeah, they are neutral. But still, most Members of the Argent Crusades are human believers of the Light from Lordaeron who vowed to protect the Innocent.

They are also neutral and don't go out of their way to get into affairs between factions unless its for the greater good, Lich king, Legion etc. Especially when the start of it is muddled.

[FelPlague]

I think it's not really logical that the Paladin is going to corrupt it again without redemption...or that Darion would even do it.

Or that without a reason Radens Fist or Doomhammer are turned into Troll Weapons...

Or that we forge a mere arcanite Reaper out of Strom'kar.

I would consider most of the bonus Skins simply bonus skins. Thats the same with quests that involve machine guns, that are not canon as Azeroth is still on flintlock guns. I hope the Class Campaigns will go on in 7.2 and we will see how the Silver Hand reacts canonical to the attack on Light's Hope.

the skin itself is probelby not cannon, but the cannon part is empowering the weapon

[Deleted]

They are also neutral and don't go out of their way to get into affairs between factions unless its for the greater good, Lich king, Legion etc. Especially when the start of it is muddled.

You don't quite get the point that most of them are human beings who religiously despise things like necromancy and plagues, not some robots? Like, I don't know how your immersion works, but I certainly couldn't have played a Argent Crusade Paladin after Cataclysm, without him becoming a fallen Paladin.