In need of a more objective point of view

[Tiphess]

Sup,

As title says, I need an external pov on our guild situation.

We started mythic and we expected to hit a small wall as apparently nythendra MM is quite a challenge for average guild.

Our execution of the fight has improved drastically(went from P2 with like 5-10 deaths to 0-2 and the management of the CM is almost top notch) after 2 nights of try.

Now we're starting to address the issue that I think is the biggest one: the DPS.

For those using warcraftlogs you'll know what I'm talking when I say that NONE of our DPS ranks common or more, with the occasionnal guy that makes it there on like 1/10 try. And I'm talking about the performance/ilvl % that I consider the main factor to determine if someone knows how to play their class, to clarify.

Now here's the problem, when we approach them about the issue they all claim that we'd kill the boss easly if the execution was perfect. Thing is the boss sits at 15%hp when the enrage is in 10s (yea the DPS is that low)..

Here's my question now: how tf do we deal with this? They hide behind excuses to not invest small amount of time to search help/tips/whatever can make them improve..

Any of you had to deal with this kind of situation and what did you do? I feel like we'll be stuck with this for a long, long time, if I don't do anything. Hence why I'm posting here

[Deleted]

Well. The classic solution, albeit the toughest is to replace people. Otherwise force the defaults, potions, flasks, food.

You could look into their rotations, put others to look into them, but that might be micromanagement for little gain.

I believe people seldom change from a game so if they are consistently bad, they are consistently bad.

[Cheze]

1) expect raiders to flask/food/pot/rune on mythic encounters. Yes it gets expensive, but it's also what puts marginal attempts over the top.

2) 'Perfect execution' is a silly metric; if your folks gear is acceptable and few or none of them are climbing out of the grey percentiles, their execution isn't perfect. Moving out of poison/bugs isn't sufficient if you can't do acceptable DPS/healing at the same time. It's frankly kinda bizarre that you're even approaching nythendra's enrage, since it isn't a tight one at all.

If you don't want to either enforce consumables, replace underperformers or invest serious time in figuring out how all your DPS can improve individually, you may just have to continue to farm heroic until you get more gear.

[Tiphess]

1) expect raiders to flask/food/pot/rune on mythic encounters. Yes it gets expensive, but it's also what puts marginal attempts over the top.

2) 'Perfect execution' is a silly metric; if your folks gear is acceptable and few or none of them are climbing out of the grey percentiles, their execution isn't perfect. Moving out of poison/bugs isn't sufficient if you can't do acceptable DPS/healing at the same time. It's frankly kinda bizarre that you're even approaching nythendra's enrage, since it isn't a tight one at all.

If you don't want to either enforce consumables, replace underperformers or invest serious time in figuring out how all your DPS can improve individually, you may just have to continue to farm heroic until you get more gear.

Id love to replace but we're a nocturn guild so newcomers arent battling to enter in our guild

feelsbad

About the prepot part we're already enforcing it, but ofc those who dont pull a few classics excuse like "im poor" or "cut me some slack i have a life", thinking about it rn the latter seems quite stupid when we talk prepot usage lmao

I like your 2nd point tho, I'll use it next time these excuses comes up and see how it goes

[Dracodraco]

Talk to them like they're adults (because they most likely are). Short and simple:

"The strategy is almost there. The fact that we're hitting the enrage timer with the boss still sitting at over 10% is our biggest issue right now. The dps is pisspoor, and we will keep wiping over and over to this and any of the other mythic encounters if we DO by some fluke manage to kill it, because their DPS requirements are far tighter than this one. We can do that if you all want; I don't mind. I've got time to waste. We can solve this if you'd all bother looking into optimising your damage, though - so it comes down to this: Do you want to put hours and hours into wiping to the same boss, or do you want to go spend a few hours looking into what you can do to improve your performance so we can wipe on the HARD bosses instead?"

[xcess]

Maybe post your logs and have ppl here analyze them ? If youre hitting enrage without people dying then its dps issue or you have too many heals? Show them logs with kills to compare dps.. Crazy if youre not using consumables, it could mean getting people out faster and more dps. Maybe at least use wod ones? But as mentioned you will just have same problem with next bosses

[Sxq]

Same as every other guild in that situation: replace bad players with better players via recruiting, or if you can't/won't do that then you wait another week or two until you get more heroic gear and outgear it

Can't give more specific suggestions without logs

[Deleted]

I'm betting the majority of your raid aren't using potions. They can be anything up to 10,000,000 damage extra on some classes when two are used. Even with the most rotten luck you'll see people gaining 3,000,000 damage with them.

If you want to tackle mythic you have to demand these things of people.

[Gaidax]

Get one healer less and tell people to shape up or else you will be sitting there forever. TBH, if you struggle with enrage on Nyth, Ursoc will roll you anyway. If you enrage there, but everyone lives so long, then too many healers I guess.

Maybe your tactics is flawed? Too many people getting rot and mind controlled? It's not only about surviving, it's also about not stacking Rot if you can help it.

[Alayea]

(The most experience I have is Normal raiding, but what I'm about to type applies to players in general.)

I have to wonder if there isn't also some culture clash going on. Relying on your side of the story, it sounds like your raiding team itself has two internal teams: Those who go 110% and those who do 85%. Those who want to push through Mythic EN ASAP and those who are willing to take longer at it. Those who use runes / potions and those who don't.

It was because of those type of differences in mindset that a guild imploded, after I had just joined, during early Throne of Thunder in MoP.

[Novakhoro]

Post logs or provide info for them to be found. Plenty people here will look at them and provide feedback which you can relay to them as a semi-TLDR. Then when they see improvement hopefully they will be incentivized to progress even further. I can help with most melee DPS, specifically Havoc.

[Dug]

Have you all been running heroic for long? My guild only just cleared Heroic this week and they're already thinking of jumping into Mythics. If it's a similar situation I think running more heroics/normals to get everyone more gear could help.

[stevenho]

Same as every other guild in that situation: replace bad players with better players via recruiting, or if you can't/won't do that then you wait another week or two until you get more heroic gear and outgear it

This posts says all.
Unless you want to babysit everyone and "male them better". Good luck with that.