Odyn and Guarm Stealth Nerfs

[Saverem]

Only now on live they decided to put it at 5 minutes, for god knows what reason.

To put the difficulty more in line with the ilvl of loot it drops?

Personally, I would have preferred they kept the difficulty and raised the loot ilvl by 5.

[Gilgameshh]

The raid is overtuned for the gear it rewards. It's no surprise that the nerfs are already rolling in.

[Rumstein]

Where have a acted like a douche? I am being attacked from all sides by top 100 mythic raiders that don't want their precious Normal mode to be touched (that they never use).

You have done nothing other than act like a douche in this thread.

On another note: I don't think HoV is overtuned, rather that you are accustomed to EN which is far UNDERtuned.

[Dracodraco]

You have done nothing other than act like a douche in this thread.

On another note: I don't think HoV is overtuned, rather that you are accustomed to EN which is far UNDERtuned.

In all fairness, it's not a question of "thinking" that HoV is overtuned - it's quite simply a fact that if an encounter requires a higher gear level to kill than it drops, either the loot or the encounter is tuned wrong. Odyn wasn't killed by a team below 870+ average before he got nerfed, now he's being killed by teams a few ilvl below. It's that simple.

[Deleted]

Well if you cant do heroic, maybe you should do normal?

Well if you cant do World Firsts maybe you should stop playing ?

[Rumstein]

In all fairness, it's not a question of "thinking" that HoV is overtuned - it's quite simply a fact that if an encounter requires a higher gear level to kill than it drops, either the loot or the encounter is tuned wrong. Odyn wasn't killed by a team below 870+ average before he got nerfed, now he's being killed by teams a few ilvl below. It's that simple.

The reason only higher ilvl teams killed him pre-nerf is just because they have had so much time to farm high ilvl gear already anyway. I guarantee that these cutting edge raiding guilds could have done it in 855 average, though it may have taken a little longer.

There's a lot of complaints that content is too hard and overtuned when it is immediately released, and the volume of these complaints leads to Emerald Nightmare, where the entire thing was grossly undertuned.

[Deleted]

our raid can nuke hymdall/hyrja to 91% before them using any ability. rofl

[Sting]

The reason only higher ilvl teams killed him pre-nerf is just because they have had so much time to farm high ilvl gear already anyway. I guarantee that these cutting edge raiding guilds could have done it in 855 average, though it may have taken a little longer.

There's a lot of complaints that content is too hard and overtuned when it is immediately released, and the volume of these complaints leads to Emerald Nightmare, where the entire thing was grossly undertuned.

This whole post reminds me of ICC. Sure, you could kill Lich King 25 heroic without a 5-30% buff, it just took you months of farming gear. I'm glad we moved on from that. Could top guilds kill it in 855? Maybe? What's the point? Anybody who'd progress from normal ToV into heroic ToV, one step up the ladder, isn't in a top guild to begin with. That one step on the ladder is also where the tuning was fucked up. We struggled a bit on heroic odyn, then we just called it and farmed the first 4 in EN mythic since content that was 10 ilvls higher was easier. I'd say ToV was overtuned for sure.

[Twilight Cultist]

The reason only higher ilvl teams killed him pre-nerf is just because they have had so much time to farm high ilvl gear already anyway. I guarantee that these cutting edge raiding guilds could have done it in 855 average, though it may have taken a little longer.

There's a lot of complaints that content is too hard and overtuned when it is immediately released, and the volume of these complaints leads to Emerald Nightmare, where the entire thing was grossly undertuned.

Normal and Heroics are not tuned around the cutting edge guilds. Yes, if you play perfectly, Heroic ToV would likely be doable with Ilvl 855 gear, but the idea around Heroic is that it is made for coordinated groups who play at an above average skill level, not the highest skill level.

[Rumstein]

Normal and Heroics are not tuned around the cutting edge guilds. Yes, if you play perfectly, Heroic ToV would likely be doable with Ilvl 855 gear, but the idea around Heroic is that it is made for coordinated groups who play at an above average skill level, not the highest skill level.

You would also expect that fights would be tuned to actually take a bit of learning and even a little bit of time to execute properly outside of LFR. I personally feel that 8-10 hours per Mythic boss, 2-3 hours per Heroic boss (to learn and get 1st kill) would be an adequate level of tuning for an adequately geared group, or do you suggest that it should be faceroll because it's heroic?

I reiterate - people complain about undertuning when a Mythic raid is cleared in 1-2 days (absolutely undertuned), and then on the other hand, if it's a little hard they complain about overtuning even before putting significant time into it. In any event, I would prefer things be overtuned initially and then wound back bit by bit to the right level, rather than being undertuned and buffed after first clear.

[Sting]

I reiterate - people complain about undertuning when a Mythic raid is cleared in 1-2 days (absolutely undertuned), and then on the other hand, if it's a little hard they complain about overtuning even before putting significant time into it. In any event, I would prefer things be overtuned initially and then wound back bit by bit to the right level, rather than being undertuned and buffed after first clear.

I mostly disagree. Xavius was undertuned for sure, but the rest was fine. The reason it was cleared so fast is because the best guilds did a lot of heroic clears in the first two weeks, combined with the fact that heroic loot could already roll up to 895 before mythic was even out, leading to a higher overall ilvl compared to what mythic drops to begin with (one could assume it's tuned for ~865-870 then).

Heroic ToV was arguably harder than the early bosses in mythic EN before these nerfs. There was a huge dissonance between the difficulty and the base ilvl of the loot that it dropped.

[Brickwalls]

Well if you cant do heroic, maybe you should do normal?

It was overtuned

Clearly Blizzard agreed.

If you can't handle them nerfing a Heroic that was harder than a Mythic, consider quitting the game.

[Deleted]

It was overtuned

Clearly Blizzard agreed.

If you can't handle them nerfing a Heroic that was harder than a Mythic, consider quitting the game.

Maybe the problem was Emerald Nightmares tuning? Ever considered that?

[Demeia]

The reason only higher ilvl teams killed him pre-nerf is just because they have had so much time to farm high ilvl gear already anyway. I guarantee that these cutting edge raiding guilds could have done it in 855 average, though it may have taken a little longer.

There's a lot of complaints that content is too hard and overtuned when it is immediately released, and the volume of these complaints leads to Emerald Nightmare, where the entire thing was grossly undertuned.

While I'm sure the last boss of EN was undertuned on Mythic, I suspect it's tuned about where Blizzard wants in on heroic. I don't think they care if we kill the bosses fairly quickly. They are planning on making many, many more.

Regarding the voice comm/raid rules, it's pretty much the old hardcore/softcore argument. I think they way to judge is simple: if you kick people for not performing, you are pretty hardcore. Our guild is more social. We do use voice; not everyone bothers with a mic. We're not going to kick friends for performance so we more or less suck by a mythic guild's standards. At my age and ambition level, it's fine. It's frustrating sometimes when the same people make the same mistakes but eventually those folk get better and/or we carry them.

I actually wish it was easier to carry people so we could bring some folks who just aren't very good at all but who I enjoyed raiding with.

[Brokeback]

Odyn was effectively buffed from PTR with the instant shatter spam and the minibosses actually jumping in. Guarm enrage was nerfed because it would barely be achievable using heroic level gear--for any mythic EN geared guild you should still be able to beat it in <4 minutes as you increase your ilvl toward 880.

Helya was the encounter that was nerfed from its PTR version. Phase 3 is much easier without having millions of adds swarming you and dropping goo everywhere.

Overall, I'd expect to see encounters get more difficult with each raid release, so you're going to see complaints about not being able to kill every boss as easily as you could in EN.

[willemh]

How about people forget Emerald Nightmare for 1 second, and think back to the tiers before that.

How many 'heroic' guilds were able to kill Archimonde heroic quickly (within a few weeks). How many 'heroic' guilds were able to kill blackhand heroic (within a few weeks). How about Imperator? How about Garrosh?

These final heroic bosses are supposed to be lasting us untill nighthold. They are supposed to be something to work towards for flexible sized guilds that only raid heroic. They are supposed to be challenging and have some learning curve. Especially Helya as the last fight (IMO Odyn and Guarm are really not that overtuned after a small learning curve). She's a nice challenge for <20 man guilds untill Nighthold, and that's completely fine. There are SO many alternative sources of gear these days that it really doesnt matter if one source is a bit of a challenge.

[Deleted]

Maybe the problem was Emerald Nightmares tuning? Ever considered that?

And another mythic raider trying to butt in.

If you had scrolled up you would see that most of us already said EN was undertuned and to easy.
But that has nothing to do with the OVERTUNED state of ToV at the moment.

They went from 1 extreme to another instead of tuning the raid at an acceptable level.

Why do you people even care how they tune Normal and heroic. Go play mythic that is there for you.

[setsuna f seiei]

After just doing HoV and fighting Odyn I'm confused.. we got his adds to 25%, Odyn jumps down and we just lay into him, no runes, no adds, no taunt just wtf.... this nerf is pretty stupid imo.

[Dracodraco]

After just doing HoV and fighting Odyn I'm confused.. we got his adds to 25%, Odyn jumps down and we just lay into him, no runes, no adds, no taunt just wtf.... this nerf is pretty stupid imo.

That's a known bug going around atm. There's a few speedkills with extremely low gear where he bugs out and does literally nothing but melee swing and his random raid dmg in p3. It's not the nerf, it's a bug .

[Blackmist]

I'm not surprised. If it was a 15 ilvl upgrade over EN, the difficulty would be fine. For 5 ilvls, it's really not.

Normal mode ToV should not have been harder than all of heroic EN.