If you JOIN a pug, you aren't the leader!

[JonBeMerkin]

So tired of people joining pugs and trying to lead the damn raid.

"Why we 3 healing, just get 2 healers its just normal/heroic...."

"Why are you getting another DPS? 2/2/8 is fine!"

"We should do dragons first instead of Ursoc first!"

"Lol these markers...not how I do it in my raid!"...

"Ugh we shoulda got a shockadin holy pally DPS man wtf ..they rock!"

"We should lust on x because ___ ..ugh this raid leader"

if you want to raid lead make your own group....Don't join a pug and then try to object at every little thing the raid leader is doing because you feel it should be done your way. The bosses are going to die either way if you want things to be done your way then make your own group...Its so annoying joining a pug and trying to see what the raid leader wants us to do and 5 other people saying different stuff that confuses people like we get it...Its normal/heroic and its easy but you still joined his raid so hes in charge!

[Deleted]

So tired of people joining pugs and trying to lead the damn raid.

"Why we 3 healing, just get 2 healers its just normal...."

"Why are you getting another DPS? 2/2/8 is fine!"

"We should do dragons first instead of Ursoc first!"

"Lol these markers...not how I do it in my raid!"...

"Ugh we shoulda got a shockadin holy pally DPS man wtf ..they rock!"

"We should lust on x because ___"

if you want to raid lead make your own group....Don't join a pug and then try to object at every little thing the raid leader is doing because you feel it should be done your way. The bosses are going to die either way if you want things to be done your way then make your own group...Its so annoying joining a pug and trying to see what the raid leader wants us to do and 5 other people saying different stuff that confuses people like we get it...Its normal/heroic and its Easy!

Why can't I actually help pug leader if he is new to the raid and things that people tell him will make us kill the bosses faster and easier?

[Bumkin]

Why can't I actually help pug leader if he is new to the raid and things that people tell him will make us kill the bosses faster and easier?

only if he asks for help, otherwise stfu

[JonBeMerkin]

Why can't I actually help pug leader if he is new to the raid and things that people tell him will make us kill the bosses faster and easier?

I've been pugging raids on alts since the start of legion every week and i've never seen a pug raid leader say "alright guys i'm new to this raid so i'd appreciate any help!"...

You're exactly the problem i'm talking about. Nothing you will say is going to make the raid go 20 minutes faster. Theres a difference between helping like for example on dragon saying "hey man you put all healers in the same group" vs CAN WE JUST STACK THE DRAGONS MAN COME ON ITS EASY ITS JUST NORMAL!"

[xero5141]

So you've never been in a PUG where something ridiculous is happening which leads to 3 or 4 wipes, or maybe more?

Now if someone corrected that silly behavior before the wipes... how much time would have been saved? There are ways of doing things that make more sense in PUGs, a lot of people make groups and have little to no idea what's going on. Just the other day I did a Karazhan (which is basically a raid, even now) and no one had any idea what was going on, but oh look, here I am on my tank and know all the fights very well so with a 30 second explanation before each boss we only wipe twice the whole run, to Medivh's Flame Wreath.

4 people who didn't know how to personally do the fights let alone LEAD the run, what if the 5th had been the same type of person? How much time did I save by speaking up?


Something that happens a lot is someone joins a pug for a raid, run of some-sort... run goes very well, maybe no wipes, maybe amazing healers or dps, who knows. That person now thinks "OH that was easy! I'll just make a group next week so I don't have to find one".

Shitty run ensues.

[Deleted]

I've been pugging raids on alts since the start of legion every week and i've never seen a pug raid leader say "alright guys i'm new to this raid so i'd appreciate any help!"...

You're exactly the problem i'm talking about. Nothing you will say is going to make the raid go 20 minutes faster. Theres a difference between helping like for example on dragon saying "hey man you put all healers in the same group" vs CAN WE JUST STACK THE DRAGONS MAN COME ON ITS EASY ITS JUST NORMAL!"

If I see group is HEAVILY overgearing the raid (maybe 885-890 for normal en) I suggest hero on pull and bursting cenarius through thorns because it's MUCH faster and if our group is strong enough for this, why not?

[God Save The King]

I agree. Lot's of backseat/armchair raid leaders. But it happens everywhere, in all realms of life. If they start causing a ruckus, I usually just kick them.

[Usernameforforums]

Why listen to a pug leader when they are lower progged? When they are 3/7H and you're 7/7m shouldn't they be begging for the advice? I think so.

[pmkaboo]

So you've never been in a PUG where something ridiculous is happening which leads to 3 or 4 wipes, or maybe more?

yeah, and the ridiculous events were always the result of either nobody saying anything, or multiple people explaining multiple different strategies.

[Coldfrostzero]

I disagree.

Just because you raid lead doesn't mean you know better than others. Many times in HFC I was given raid lead in a PUG because either A. the RL didn't know the fights well enough to explain each role or B. the RL left and I was already RL without the title.

If I can solo heal or 2 heal a fight, I usually tell the weaker healer to go dps, because I am good enough to handle it. If I am tanking and out gear the fight, I'll ask the other tank to dps/heal if possible (less so nowadays). I do this regardless of the RL wishes.

Granted, if it becomes a problem were the RL won't listen I'll either leave group because the group is not going to succeed under the current RL or if the group is going well anyway, I will slow down on making suggestions.

A good team player listens to suggestions. Why would you ignore the advice of someone who has cleared a higher difficulty than you on multiple characters, in multiple roles? For example, HFC I full cleared Heroic on at least 9 of 11 classes in various roles for each class and had at least a few kills in N or H for the others. Not to mention I had 4 characters that were at least 5/13M and one at 13/13M from raiding in two guilds and switching mains often as the roles were needed.

Even today, I have a 870 Ret paladin that I am 2/7M 3/3N where I was ranking in the 80s-90s in the world and switched to an 870 Shadow Priest due to overabundance of melee in the guild (which I am starting to rank in the 90s and top of my gear bracket now that I feel more comfortable with the spec, mind you) and we're now 3/7M 2/3H and have the next boss at ~50% so the kill should come soon enough. So I shouldn't offer suggestions on how to do a boss because you feel that RL makes you supreme overlord?

Maybe you should ask yourself why they are suggesting it and not demand so much from people you don't know?

[Teaon]

Why listen to a pug leader when they are lower progged? When they are 3/7H and you're 7/7m shouldn't they be begging for the advice? I think so.

why the hell are you joining a 3/7h when you are 7/7m? stop enforcing your way on others, make your own 7/7m 900ilvl+ normal run group or join a similar exped leader

[Seramore]

Why can't I actually help pug leader if he is new to the raid and things that people tell him will make us kill the bosses faster and easier?

I think it's safe to say that given the chances, they probably don't want your help.

[callipygoustp]

I ran a lot of successful pug raids over the years. I never hesitated on my resolution for dealing with that type of person : I removed that type of person quickly and started looking for a replacement.

[Boogums]

Why can't I actually help pug leader if he is new to the raid and things that people tell him will make us kill the bosses faster and easier?

You can help. Ask the raid leader if he wants help and if he says yes, by all means. If he says no, keep your mouth shut or leave.

[Littlepwny]

If the raid leader proves himself as inexperienced, people absolutely should give suggestions that would prevent a wipe. The fact that half of the EnNHC raider leaders are "raid leading" because they are too terrible not to be kicked by a proper raid leader leads to most people assuming inexperience than the other way around.

That is for EN HC. When pugging Trial of Valour, however, almost all Raid Leaders have done their research and this is generally reflected in the chat; people expect the leader to know wtf he is doing and remain silent until instructed.

There are exceptions but this is my general experience.

[Joeydivision82]

This is incredibly annoying. To those who say that you should be allowed to give input, if you are really that set on things going your way, you can always start the pug yourself, or join a different one. I've joined pugs we're I was far more experienced and I kept my mouth shut unless someone asked and the RL and he/she didn't see it or wasn't as familiar with a specific roles mechanics.

[Deleted]

I'll make suggestions if I join a PuG and I think we'd benefit from getting X or Y or doing a certain tactic (I seldom PuG things but if I do and I've got an idea that I think will help, I'll say it). I won't mind if my suggestion/idea is ignored or if the RL has a reasonable argument against it, but saying that we shouldn't make suggestions at all is moronic. Just be polite about it and it's fine. Raid/PuG leaders will have varying degrees of experience and leadership experience, so maybe some of them value intelligent suggestions from other players.

Stamping your feet and demanding the leader does things your way is too much though, then you should obviously make your own groups if you're that adamant on doing it your own way.

[Zephire]

I've been pugging raids on alts since the start of legion every week and i've never seen a pug raid leader say "alright guys i'm new to this raid so i'd appreciate any help!"...

I do that from time to time It doesn't make you a bad leader, in fact, it makes you a better one. Leading isn't about knowing everything, it's about, well... leading, to remove a lot of choice-making from everyone else so they can focus on whatever they're assigned to.

You're exactly the problem i'm talking about. Nothing you will say is going to make the raid go 20 minutes faster. Theres a difference between helping like for example on dragon saying "hey man you put all healers in the same group" vs CAN WE JUST STACK THE DRAGONS MAN COME ON ITS EASY ITS JUST NORMAL!"

How people help/says the advice makes the world, indeed. Just argue with them calmly and ask why they think so and what it would do. It's your job as a leader to lead, and you need to understand the individuals you're leading to do so. Communication is key and if you don't do it, they won't change their behaviour.

I disagree.

Just because you raid lead doesn't mean you know better than others. Many times in HFC I was given raid lead in a PUG because either A. the RL didn't know the fights well enough to explain each role or B. the RL left and I was already RL without the title.

If I can solo heal or 2 heal a fight, I usually tell the weaker healer to go dps, because I am good enough to handle it. If I am tanking and out gear the fight, I'll ask the other tank to dps/heal if possible (less so nowadays). I do this regardless of the RL wishes.

Granted, if it becomes a problem were the RL won't listen I'll either leave group because the group is not going to succeed under the current RL or if the group is going well anyway, I will slow down on making suggestions.

A good team player listens to suggestions. Why would you ignore the advice of someone who has cleared a higher difficulty than you on multiple characters, in multiple roles? For example, HFC I full cleared Heroic on at least 9 of 11 classes in various roles for each class and had at least a few kills in N or H for the others. Not to mention I had 4 characters that were at least 5/13M and one at 13/13M from raiding in two guilds and switching mains often as the roles were needed.

Even today, I have a 870 Ret paladin that I am 2/7M 3/3N where I was ranking in the 80s-90s in the world and switched to an 870 Shadow Priest due to overabundance of melee in the guild (which I am starting to rank in the 90s and top of my gear bracket now that I feel more comfortable with the spec, mind you) and we're now 3/7M 2/3H and have the next boss at ~50% so the kill should come soon enough. So I shouldn't offer suggestions on how to do a boss because you feel that RL makes you supreme overlord?

Maybe you should ask yourself why they are suggesting it and not demand so much from people you don't know?

I think OP's point is that there's different ways of giving help, nicely or rudely. Still, what you say is 100% true (part from your own achievements which I can't check on but I take your word for it :P )!

[ponies]

Sounds like you aren't a good pug leader.

[Usernameforforums]

why the hell are you joining a 3/7h when you are 7/7m? stop enforcing your way on others, make your own 7/7m 900ilvl+ normal run group or join a similar exped leader

It was a example. Some people that miss raids go into group finder only to find out the leader is garbage so they decide to help the leader only to get called a elitist and get kicked. It has happened to me.

Other situations include heroic not included on main raid days, new raids come out, the need of legendaries.