MM vs BM

[Clinkzthebonerogue]

Hi guys, decided to make an alt Hunter and was wondering what you guys think of both specs in terms of raiding and how it's looking in 7.2.

They both seem to be performing close together looking at some of the logs. So I'm asking how the playstyle is and why you like it on the current patch (ex. MM easier than BM? BM more spammy?) and how you guys think it will perform DPS wise into 7.2.

Thanks in advance!

[Soisoisoi]

BM is the easiest, as always, and you never have to stand still so it's not held back by mechanics/movement planning. You do have to put up with god-awful Pet AI though.

BM also plays strange, you're either spamming, or you're waiting/falling asleep, depending if you have Bestial Wrath up or not. MM depends on the build you use, it can be mobile with the meme build and have great burst AoE/cleave, for example. Try both and see which you prefer.

[Vormspire]

BM is very very simple. MM resolves around keeping Vulnerability up because all your damage is revolved around it. MM probably a little better on burst/ST and BM is better at sustained cleave.

[Clinkzthebonerogue]

Yea I tried both and felt like BM was pretty spammy with both of their main dps skills on a ~6 second cd.

I'm leaning towards MM, always liked the idea of being an archer and not so much the beast taming part. The meme build is pretty interesting. People run that on ST? Looks pretty fun if you wanna blow multiple targets up. Why's it called the meme build LOL.

[Nythiz]

It's mostly preference call.
I like Marksman more for raiding. I like the archer archetype and MM is the closest thing to that. It felt a bit better back towards the end of WoD to be honest, but the current version isn't extremely bad either.
BM isn't super bad, but I liked the old one more. The current BM has too much downtime and I'm not very fond of the dire beast concept. It's very easy to play (can be a pro, can be a con).

If it was up to me I would play both on and off, it's what I normally do with my hunter.
But the stupid legendary system made that neigh impossible.

In my opinion if you compare the two specs:
- Marksman requires a bit more skill. Both the skill ceiling (how easy it is to max your dps) and skill floor (how easy it is to start off with it) are lower for BM.
Higher skill ceiling means you can get more out of the spec and generally feel more enjoyment over a longer period of time as you see yourself improve.
Lower skill floor can make it a lot easier to get into, this is great for starting out and/or if you only play the class every now and then.

- Beastmaster has a great freedom in it's mobility. As there is nothing forcing you to stand still. Everything is instant cast or usable on the move.
Marksman's immobility can be a burden, but if you know the fight it's generally easy to work around. Also part of the aforementioned skill factor.

- Marksman is less reliant on AI. That means that it's more reliable. Your pet and/or Hati can easily get stuck or unresponsive which is devastating for BM dps.
Also the pets have travel time which can be an issue on target swapping.
I'm kind of used to the pet AI, seeing as I've been playing hunter (off and on) since vanilla; but I have to say that the new Hati pet is a throwback to the Vanilla/TBC time, god that thing is annoying at times.

- BM is easier and more available for "all round use". Doing world quests, doing LFR, doing old content. BM just is very easy going at it.
I often play MM in raids, but for a lot of non-raid stuff I switch over to BM because it's just so much easier to stick around with. No hassle with kiting and/or using Black Arrow,

Hard to say what 7.2 will bring though.

[Yizu]

Yea I tried both and felt like BM was pretty spammy with both of their main dps skills on a ~6 second cd.

Well if you think BM is spammy then im sorry to tell you, you are not playing it correctly. #1 rule of BM is you cannot focus starve yourself.

[Deleted]

Then 4 set shoulders and belt happened.. i mean i have 4 set and belt.. BW uptime is very high so ur spamming a fair bit actually.

If u have 4 set + 1 of those focus starving is not a big issue just hold off a little in that very brirf time BW is down

[Daerron]

well the question is about 7.2 , and from seeing new traits i'd say MM would be stronger (if played ideally and assuming u have all legs for both specs), both ST and AOE. Current MM set is also megastrong with only 2 pieces, so i think it would be possible to combine 2 sets with 3 bonuces total and have very high trueshot uptime. BM set is also strong, but that is 4 pieces - and having 4 low ilvl pieces (with low hp as well as agi) on progress wont cut the deal.
My verdict - unless fights will be very very movement intensive, MM is clearly go to spec.

[Clinkzthebonerogue]

Then 4 set shoulders and belt happened.. i mean i have 4 set and belt.. BW uptime is very high so ur spamming a fair bit actually.

If u have 4 set + 1 of those focus starving is not a big issue just hold off a little in that very brirf time BW is down

That's what I was thinking when I took a peek at how many things make BW a lower CD.


What's the spec for Mythic+? Meme build looks pretty good with all that AOE + Volley talent.

[Galaar]

First, play what you like to play. If you're not pushing hardcore mythic raiding there's really not much difference in overall output.
Second, I play primarily MM (Meme), but switch to trick shot on more ST fights.

BM: my biggest issue with this BM is the Pet AI + if you focus starve, it really gets boring. I much preferred WoD BM over this iteration and Hati just annoys me. Overall the spec isn't hard to play but you have to just be cognizant of your focus. If you can get the lego shoulders it makes the spec a lot more fluid in my opinion (extra dire beast charge).

MM: There are two specs, the one that depends on the vulnerability window (trick shot spec) more and the one that's called meme that reduces the amount of your AiS/Vulnerability requirements.

Meme - very mobile spec that has a really great aoe cleave potential, though if you don't get hunter's mark procs for marked shots there can be some minor dry spells. Legos like zephrims ring make the spec more interesting as you can get more marked shots in which is huge when you are facing packs (i.e. mythic+). The belt and boots also work great.

Trick Shot - I use this on fights like krosus, star auger and trilliax because there's not really much cleave situations where meme would shine. This spec depends on the patient sniper talent where your vulnerability window is your main focus and you need to maximize your AiS (Aimed Shot) casts in that window. This spec is also less mobile as if a raid mechanic pops up in your vuln window it can have a negative impact as you lose precious seconds. You also would want to get a decent bit of haste to reduce cast time on AiS.

Over all imo both MM specs are fun to play. I run meme on WQ as at anything 870+ you can pretty much kill anything non-elite in the world without kiting or black arrow (I haven't used black arrow in months). In fact, for most non-elite mobs the opening of Windburst with a pause for travel time then Piercing Shot either kills them or they are pretty close to dead.

[Clinkzthebonerogue]

Thanks for the reply Galaar.

Yea Looks like I'll be going MM. Did a lot more looking around and a lot of the talents really interest me. (I'm into maximizing DPS and semi-hardcore mythic raiding)

So when would you use trick shot/Piercing shot talents? I see that a lot more high parses use trick shot instead of piercing. Trick shot has a pretty decent AOE component that looks like it could out-scale piercing in higher gear lvls. I"m guessing the only thing that pulls down trick shot would be RNG. Other than that it looks like it pulls ahead of piercing. Correct me if I'm wrong tho

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Also what about volley vs Barrage? To my understanding you use Volly if they are clumped together and barrage if they are way spread. Volley looks pretty applicable in NH cuz most of the adds are usually grouped together for cleave and such. Barrage isn't used in many parses on these mythic bosses so the damage must not be very good for its aoe compensation

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Ah. CoF and the boots probably pull trick shot way ahead cuz of true shot uptime eh

[Kirbypro]

If you like to volunteer to do raid mechanics, go BM for the infinite mobility.

[Angrox]

Thanks for the reply Galaar.

So when would you use trick shot/Piercing shot talents? I see that a lot more high parses use trick shot instead of piercing. Trick shot has a pretty decent AOE component that looks like it could out-scale piercing in higher gear lvls. I"m guessing the only thing that pulls down trick shot would be RNG. Other than that it looks like it pulls ahead of piercing. Correct me if I'm wrong tho

- - - Updated - - -

Also what about volley vs Barrage? To my understanding you use Volly if they are clumped together and barrage if they are way spread. Volley looks pretty applicable in NH cuz most of the adds are usually grouped together for cleave and such. Barrage isn't used in many parses on these mythic bosses so the damage must not be very good for its aoe compensation

- - - Updated - - -

Ah. CoF and the boots probably pull trick shot way ahead cuz of true shot uptime eh

Piercing shot is only good on aoe fights, and if u don't have the belt legendary otherwise trickshot is best in all situations.
Piercing shot is also harder to master as it requires alot more timing and positioning, without necessarily giving you more dmg.
I have all MM legendaries cept Zevrims and prydaz, if i had got boots and prydaz i would've progressed with piercing shot build, but i got belt early on instead so i've never had any reason to play with PS.

Barrage is only used spread aoe fights like Helya or maybe Dragons.
Yeah you're right there's really no fight where barrage is good for NH

I've never thought about that third point, i guess it's irrelevant in my situation cos i don't have prydaz for piercing to be viable.

[Clinkzthebonerogue]

I see. Thanks for the answer Angrox.

I got another question for you MM hunters out there. Concerning marked shot.. So say you are at ~30 energy and your marked shot is procced and ready to go. and your arcane shot is also procced and ready to be consumed. is it a dps increase to marked shot and then arcane shot so your auto attacks can RNG and reproc asap? (I'm guessing you'd only be able to get 1 aimed shot this vulnerability window using this route) or should you arcane shot (thus wasting your arcane shot proc) until you have 95 energy then marked shot > aimed shot > aimed shot?

Sorry if i butchered the explanation. It goes a lot more better in my head LOL.

[manthix]

Most people in this tread seem to argue that MM is the superior hunter spec at the moment as well as in 7.2, which i think is just simply wrong. I'm not saying MM is bad, if you want to play MM go ahead, but there's no reason why BM shouldn't be just as viable no matter what level you play at, if not even more viable. Looking at the sheer DPS output of both of the specs in Nighthold you can check the top logs of all bosses and see that with the exception of the fights with a very large amount of cleave (those fights being Spellblade and Tichondrius, botanist on heroic, sure, but who cares about heroic.. not even mentioning Skorpyron) BM is pulling ahead of MM pretty consistently on every fight. More importantly than the DPS of the top log, BM is not limited by having to stand still and cast, which means that you can do pretty much all movement based mechanics while maintaining maximum DPS. If you play well as MM and especially if you have the legendary gloves you can generally move around quite a bit as well, but not as much, and especially not as much at a time, you'll be 'stuttering' around if you want to maintain maximum DPS as MM while moving.

As for legendaries both specs need the BiS to really work, there's not much of an advantage to gain here.

As for 7.2, sure MM could use 2p t19 and 4p t20 at the same time as some people have argues might be good, but then again, if you do this you can't use the legendary gloves, which you definitely want for some fights. This combined with the fact that you are going to lose out on a large amount of stats even if you get 2x 925 TF'ed t19 pieces means that I'm pretty convinced this wont be viable, it's going to be really fringe at least. Allowing all traits to rank up to 4 instead of 3 favors BM over MM very significantly as well since BM has 2 traits ('Jaws of Thunder' and 'Pack Leader') buffing KC multiplicatively with each other, getting another rank in just these 2 traits is an insane DPS increase on ST. Everyone knows that BM is way more trait driven than MM. The main new trait added for BM reduces the cost of Cobra shot by 8 focus, which is almost a 25% cost reduction. This might mean that you don't even want to run the cost reduction legendary belt anymore and instead just go for the Apex claw or the buffed Sephuz. 8 focus down is huge for killer cobra and DPS potential outside of BL.

Finally, a lot of people are complaining about the pet (and especially Hati's) AI, which is reasonable as it does kinda suck sometimes. That said, after you've played it for a while and gotten used to spamming a /petattack macro it really isn't that bad.

tl;dr Play whatever you want, but don't go MM because you are afraid BM isn't viable

[Clinkzthebonerogue]

Over all imo both MM specs are fun to play. I run meme on WQ as at anything 870+ you can pretty much kill anything non-elite in the world without kiting or black arrow (I haven't used black arrow in months). In fact, for most non-elite mobs the opening of Windburst with a pause for travel time then Piercing Shot either kills them or they are pretty close to dead.

What do you do in the 30 second cd that piercing has? Just crow and marked/aimed?

[PuppetShowJustice]

It may be worth noting that we're broken as hell on the PTR and while it stands to reason that our issues will probably get fixed, that may not happen before 7.2 hits the live servers. BM's damage boosting trait isn't applying to pet damage. While obviously not intended, this is a massive hit. That's an oversight and will hopefully be fixed in short order. More worrying is that Cobra Commander isn't gaining any boosts from secondary stats and the thunder damage ability is similarly busted. The Cobra Shot focus cost trait is literally the only new BM thing that actually functions.

BM will be continue to be great so long as those issues get addressed. But BM feels like it hasn't gotten much attention since they asked for our feedback and responded to it by nerfing Posthaste for everybody.

[Clinkzthebonerogue]

tl;dr Play whatever you want, but don't go MM because you are afraid BM isn't viable

Thanks for the info Manthix. Looks like it's a toss up on how both specs will do next patch. I did say on my original post that both specs are parsing close together so I'm not picking MM because it's not viable. I know it is. I just like the idea of Marksman being the archer and the fact that I have to think about how I can maximize my dps while running around doing mechanics is half the fun for me.

[Galaar]

What do you do in the 30 second cd that piercing has? Just crow and marked/aimed?

In those gaps I will usually get procs of hunters mark and hit marked shots. However, opening with AiS isn't too bad either.

[Clinkzthebonerogue]

In those gaps I will usually get procs of hunters mark and hit marked shots. However, opening with AiS isn't too bad either.

I see I used black arrow, side winders, crows, and explosive shot. the refresh on both crow and black arrow made it so fast. There was 0 down time in between mobs.

Crow > black arrow > windburst > aimed shot = dead. walk up to explosive if not and then move on.

Then when my windburst was on cd you would do sidewinders to apply vulnerable so just replace the windburst. only thing is you can't do it to like 6 mobs in a row cuz your sidewinders CD starts to pull you down. but even a little travel time was enough to give sidewinders to cooldown. Then windburst would be up again. idk I can't see anything faster than that.

Piercing/windburst would be good. to insta kill one target but if you were pulling in quick succession I think 20/30 second cds are way too long then fishing for marked shots.