7.2 shoulders opener

[Deleted]

Ive been looking through the guides, but they seem to be for the old subterfuge build which was nerfed. How does the opener should look like with the nerf? (with DoS and without)

[Deleted]

It hasnt changed too much man. You could try two different options,

1.Garrote -> Mutilate -> Rupture -> Mutilate -> Vendetta -> Envenom -> Kingsbane -> Mutilate -> Envenom (mantle expires) ->Vanish -> Mutilate -> Garrote -> Envenom -> Mutilate / Envenom cycle w/o DoS.

Important note is that you wait and pool a Little bit after your first mantle buff expires and before you pop your Vanish. This way you will make sure that all of your latest and highest KB stacks will fit into the crit window of your first Vanish. You will lose some mid KB stacks but the later stacks will compensate the dps easily. If you have DoS, just use it after the first Envenom after your Vanish, wehen SoT > 3 seconds and you have 5 Stacks of AP up, which you should have.

2. Garrote -> KINGSBANE -> Rupture -> Mutilate -> Vendetta -> Envenom -> Mutilate -> Vanish -> Garrote -> Mutilate/Envenom

All of your KB stacks will go into both crit windows but you will miss the buffed initial crit on KB and you wont have 5 stacks of AP that early. You can also use your DoS after the first Envenom after your Vanish when SoT > 3 and AP is fully up.

You could try both options and see which one is better.

[Deleted]

thx, rly helped me out a lot

[Elyzibeth]

Here's the opener we've been working up on the blizzard rogue forums, and it seems to work very well.

Subterfuge:
Garrote > mut > rupture > mut > vendetta > envenom > KB > mut > envenom > mut > mut > vanish (vanish stops your auto attacks, DO NOT ATTACK, sit in stealth and pool energy until KB dot timer is down to 6 seconds, then open back up on boss with one of the following bases on your previous mut>mut)

If "mut>mut" made 5 CPS then:
envenom > mut > garrote > DOS > envenom

If "mut>mut" made 4 CPS then:
garrote > envenom > mut > DOS > envenom

After much looking through logs etc a few of us rogues on the blizzard forums have found that vanishing and remaining in stealth for those 3-4 seconds look to be a mathematical dps gain. Since you're staying in stealth you receive the master assassin's initiative buff and all of your rupture/garrote and KB ticks are crits. If you remain in stealth until 6 seconds are left on your KB dot then you also get to guarantee that the end of the KB dot are 100% crits as well as fitting in a big envenom crit and your entire DOS usage.

[nocturnus]

Okay lads, I just got the Draught of Souls AND Mantle of the Master Assassin almost simultaneously.

Does anyone know if my opener is correct:

Stealth --> garrote -> rupture --> mutilate --> envenom --> DoS ----> VANISH --> vendetta --> kingsbane --> mutilate --> envenom --> mutilate --> envenom

Oh and should I use nightstalker or subterfuge?

So confusing >.<

[Elyzibeth]

I was writing you a nice response as to whey your opener stinks, but a script on this forum is crashing my IE. So, my suggestion, read the damn posts above yours and use one. The one I listed uses subterfuge, which I think is a better skill.

Your opener doesn't apply a buffed rupture if you use nightstalker, doesn't apply a refreshed garrote if subterfuge, most of your DOS will not be in the crit window and lose major dps, and your 2nd vanish will buff the least important ticks of Kingsbane.

If you use the one I listed above, you can skip the stay stealthed after vanish and just autoattack if you want. The key is to wait to vanish till KB dot has 6 seconds left so you buff all of it AND all of your DOS.

Here's a link to my trilliax log so you can see how well it works.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=6

Here's a link to the cast sequence of what I did..
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...casts&source=6

[leapfrog123]

There is no way I can do Garrote -> Mutilate -> Rupture -> Mutilate -> Vendetta -> Envenom -> Kingsbane -> Mutilate -> Envenom (mantle expires), before the mantle buff expires. I even tried popping drums and I could never get close to getting the last envenom off.

[Deleted]

Here's the opener we've been working up on the blizzard rogue forums, and it seems to work very well.

Subterfuge:
Garrote > mut > rupture > mut > vendetta > envenom > KB > mut > envenom > mut > mut > vanish (vanish stops your auto attacks, DO NOT ATTACK, sit in stealth and pool energy until KB dot timer is down to 6 seconds, then open back up on boss with one of the following bases on your previous mut>mut)

If "mut>mut" made 5 CPS then:
envenom > mut > garrote > DOS > envenom

If "mut>mut" made 4 CPS then:
garrote > envenom > mut > DOS > envenom

After much looking through logs etc a few of us rogues on the blizzard forums have found that vanishing and remaining in stealth for those 3-4 seconds look to be a mathematical dps gain. Since you're staying in stealth you receive the master assassin's initiative buff and all of your rupture/garrote and KB ticks are crits. If you remain in stealth until 6 seconds are left on your KB dot then you also get to guarantee that the end of the KB dot are 100% crits as well as fitting in a big envenom crit and your entire DOS usage.

This actually sounds pretty interesting tho and on paper, it looks pretty decent. Having a look throughout warcraftlog's top parsing rogues, you'll find many openers achieving legendary numbers. A lot is still dependent on RNG. Your Suggestion still make sense to me, would give it a try.

If "mut>mut" made 5 CPS then:
envenom > mut > garrote > DOS > envenom

If "mut>mut" made 4 CPS then:
garrote > envenom > mut > DOS > envenom

After much looking through logs etc a few of us rogues on the blizzard forums have found that vanishing and remaining in stealth for those 3

- - - Updated - - -

Oops, can't edit from work. Bad quotation :X

[nocturnus]

I was writing you a nice response as to whey your opener stinks, but a script on this forum is crashing my IE. So, my suggestion, read the damn posts above yours and use one. The one I listed uses subterfuge, which I think is a better skill.

Your opener doesn't apply a buffed rupture if you use nightstalker, doesn't apply a refreshed garrote if subterfuge, most of your DOS will not be in the crit window and lose major dps, and your 2nd vanish will buff the least important ticks of Kingsbane.

If you use the one I listed above, you can skip the stay stealthed after vanish and just autoattack if you want. The key is to wait to vanish till KB dot has 6 seconds left so you buff all of it AND all of your DOS.

Here's a link to my trilliax log so you can see how well it works.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=6

Here's a link to the cast sequence of what I did..
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...casts&source=6

Gave it a shot and I actually open for almost 2mil dps which is nice. I run nightstalker though. Should I run subterfuged, if so why? It doesn't extend the crit.

[kix]

Here's the opener i use with nightstalker, shoulders and DoS - looks like Elyzbeth's.. for the most part. I'am curious tho as to know if using subterfuge is better in a single target fight. I get the benefit in a multi-target situation (like botanist for instance)

Nightstalker:
(stealth+old war) garrote -> mutilate-> rupture-> mutilate-> vendetta-> envenom-> kingsbane-> mutilate-> vanish-> rupture-> mutilate->envenom ->mutilate ->DoS

When vanish comes back up:
(rupture and garrote are up+old war) mutilate to 5cp-> vendetta-> vanish-> rupture-> mutilate->kingsbane-> envenom-> DoS

Thoughts ?

[Deleted]

Garrote>Mutilate>Rupture>mutilate>envenom>KB>Mutilate>Vanish to Envenom>Mutilate>DOS>Envenom>Mutilate>envenom>garrote then just back to your normal rotation.

[nocturnus]

Here's the opener i use with nightstalker, shoulders and DoS - looks like Elyzbeth's.. for the most part. I'am curious tho as to know if using subterfuge is better in a single target fight. I get the benefit in a multi-target situation (like botanist for instance)

Nightstalker:
(stealth+old war) garrote -> mutilate-> rupture-> mutilate-> vendetta-> envenom-> kingsbane-> mutilate-> vanish-> rupture-> mutilate->envenom ->mutilate ->DoS

When vanish comes back up:
(rupture and garrote are up+old war) mutilate to 5cp-> vendetta-> vanish-> rupture-> mutilate->kingsbane-> envenom-> DoS

Thoughts ?

Don't think that second rupture needs to come so quickly, since it's still up.

Garrote>Mutilate>Rupture>mutilate>envenom>KB>Mutilate>Vanish to Envenom>Mutilate>DOS>Envenom>Mutilate>envenom>garrote then just back to your normal rotation.

When do you cast vendetta?

[Elyzibeth]

Nocturnus,

The reason that Kix says to rupture so early again is that the first rupture is to get it rolling on the target. the rupture immediately after vanish is to lengthen the first rupture with the nightstalker (50% increased damage) buff.

The reason that I use subterfuge is that mathematically for the energy spent etc. Garrote buffed by 125% and remember, that's 125%, not 25%. So if your garrote does 80K normally, a subterfuge buffed garrote will do 180k. Garrote gives you a combo point, and nightstalker burns your combo points, so with the Combo points you'd spend on getting a buffed rupture up with nightstalker, you can actually do a crit envenom since they're both in the buffed crit window of the shoulders. I did the math on the wow rogue forums in a thread and subterfuge came out ahead by a reasonable margin. I've also talked with Swol from the AMR site and he confirms the same thing, subterfuge is the winning talent for raw damage.

As for the opener, you will NOT get all of the attacks inside of the crit window. Only the part up through Kingsbane will be in the window. The extra attacks after that before vanish serve 2 purposes, lower your energy level so you can pool while DOS is going off and you don't cap and lose energy, do some damage while burning some of the early time of Kingsbane outside of the crit window, so you can get the END of kingsbane into the vanish crit window since those ticks do 2-3 times the amount of damage as the first few ticks.

Garrote > mut > rupture > mut > vendetta > envenom > KB (you'll run out of crit buff about there)> mut > envenom > mut > mut >

Here's a link to a super solid log on heroic trilliax from Tuesday where I used the opener I listed above.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...oulders-opener

You can see at the 11 second mark (which is where I vanished) my auto attacks stopped and I simply sat in stealth pooling energy while my KB, garrote, from the shadows, and rupture all ticked for guaranteed crits. Once my KB dot hit 6 seconds remaining, I envenomed from stealth to start my 6 seconds of master assassin's initiative ticking down.

- - - Updated - - -

LOL, linked wrong thing. Here is the log:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...&view=timeline

[kix]

Thanks Elyzibeth, i'm gonna give that a try - gotta practice that new sequence hehe
Would you be able to link where on the WOW forums this topic was discussed ?

Thanks again

[Elyzibeth]

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...age=7#post-130

There you go good sir. Handsomejeff and I are always on there trying to work up new things

[Deleted]

Don't think that second rupture needs to come so quickly, since it's still up.



When do you cast vendetta?

Garrote>Mutilate>Rupture>mutilate>vendetta>envenom>KB>Mutilate>Vanish to Envenom>Mutilate>DOS>Envenom>Mutilate>envenom>garrote then just back to your normal rotation.

[Deleted]

(...) DO NOT ATTACK, sit in stealth and pool energy (...)

Is it really the way to go ?? If you have shoulders and you have opener wiith BL isn't it better to use potion of the old war ? If you stop dps you lose ticks of old war and you stop stacking your KB, (and in tooltip you have "each time you apply lethal poison, kingsbane damage is increased by 15%)

[Master Guns]

Yeah I'm sorry but if you stop attacking for 3 seconds during an opener you're an idiot

Infracted.

[DakonBlackblade]

Here's the opener we've been working up on the blizzard rogue forums, and it seems to work very well.

Subterfuge:
Garrote > mut > rupture > mut > vendetta > envenom > KB > mut > envenom > mut > mut > vanish (vanish stops your auto attacks, DO NOT ATTACK, sit in stealth and pool energy until KB dot timer is down to 6 seconds, then open back up on boss with one of the following bases on your previous mut>mut)

If "mut>mut" made 5 CPS then:
envenom > mut > garrote > DOS > envenom

If "mut>mut" made 4 CPS then:
garrote > envenom > mut > DOS > envenom

After much looking through logs etc a few of us rogues on the blizzard forums have found that vanishing and remaining in stealth for those 3-4 seconds look to be a mathematical dps gain. Since you're staying in stealth you receive the master assassin's initiative buff and all of your rupture/garrote and KB ticks are crits. If you remain in stealth until 6 seconds are left on your KB dot then you also get to guarantee that the end of the KB dot are 100% crits as well as fitting in a big envenom crit and your entire DOS usage.

This is an interesting opening, feels wierd sitting there just waiting for energy but it does result in big numbers. However I don't think they are quite as big as not stopping your attack since you loose extra poison ticks that would further empower your KBs and all the white hits.

Id like to see the actual numbers breakdown of each different opener cause Im sceptical about sitting there doing nothing.

[Elyzibeth]

I posted it here for people to decide what they think is best. If you want to jump on the forums and say "if you're not attacking for 3 seconds you're an idiot" that's fine. But maybe a person should spend some time looking at their own log and deciding what is worth it or not. The amount of damage you're getting in crits is actually pretty overwhelming when you look at actual logs. If it's a fight that is NOT lust on pull, pooling in vanish actually appears to be a decent opener. I'll have more data in weeks to come to determine exactly what is best, but for now I'm running on limited data.