Fury depth/complexity?

[Beingbob]

Hi, I've rolled a fury warrior after hearing a lot of content creators talk about it as a well-designed spec in Legion, and one of the spec which has limited RNG. I'm currently lvl 94, past the point where everything is a one shot, and I'm starting to become concerned about the seeming simplicity of the spec, esp. after picking up Inner Rage. It kinda feels like your rotation is a pretty static: aside from Rampage, you do 1 Furious Slash then 1 Bloodthirst then 1 Raging Blow (reverse priority but this is where you end up after opener). From watching Kelade's guides, it seems execute rotation is the exact same, except Execute replaces Raging Blow.

Battle Cry seems like a moderately interesting cooldown since there are ways to reduce the duration, and sometimes you want to line it up with Avatar, DoS, Odyn's Fury, but there has to be more to the spec than managing this cooldown properly (since every spec pretty much has this element), right? Especially since it seems ToS trinkets are all passive from what I've seen.

[Rizloff]

That;s how it seems to me I practically double my Arms dps with zero thought put into what I'm doing.

[Arbiter]

That;s how it seems to me I practically double my Arms dps with zero thought put into what I'm doing.

If the spec required zero thought then more people would be ranking higher with it and we wouldn't have at least a dozen "fix my dps" every week.

Playing at a 30th percentile is easy. 90+ not so much.

[Deleted]

That;s how it seems to me I practically double my Arms dps with zero thought put into what I'm doing.

and arms requires heave thinking? xd

[Deleted]

and arms requires heave thinking? xd

Yeah. When to press FR. Smart guys even macro it to every spell/attack (rofl). (sarcasm)

[Deleted]

Fury isn't overly complex spec in terms of rotation, but it's not as simple as pressing 1,2,3. Arms is a little more challenging rotation wise, but fury is more rewarding. When you do it right, you will get good results as Fury but Arms requires you to have at least decent RNG as well, even when played to perfection. Most of the challenge however does indeed come from cooldown usage. Playing in the 90th percentile requires a lot of decision making and attention towards the boss timers in raids and knowledge of the dungeon and mob packs in mythic+.

Most classes and specs have cooldown management yes, but with Fury this aspect has a lot more weight than say an enhancement shaman. Fury has very strong cooldowns that are frequently available, like every 30-45 seconds so how you use them is crucial. There is a lot more chances of error compared to say 2-3 min cooldowns on other classes that you have to think about maybe twice or thrice per boss.

[Blorgo]

I agree. The gameplay itself is stale. No proccs equals no on the go adjustment, nothing you have to react to. Every pull feels the same. It feels a lot like a rotation because the cooldown of raging blow and bloodthirst line up to be ready every 3re gcd.

I switched from arms to fury and i would never play fury if it wasnt so strong right now because i like gameplay that doesnt play itself and is more reactionaey i.e. proccs that make a specc interesting

[Anbokr]

I know it's not a popular opinion around these parts, but coming from someone who has primarily played Fury (both in the past and throughout Legion) and generally parses 90+ a lot of the time w/ Fury (I'm not cred dropping to brag, top parses in NH are cheesy/padding blabla i've heard it all don't bother to lash out I'm only saying this to essentially say, hey I'm not an LFR/normal hero here) -- Arms is much more complex. Fury really is just 1 2 3 1 2 3 over and over again. Let's be real, the only two quirks that take some know how are pressing raging blow before rampage at 100 rage while enraged and the little bit of dynamism in the execute phase.

Arms, on the other hand, as much as people love to joke lel spam FR lel -- isn't a 1 2 3 rinse and repeat spec. Outside of Juggernaut, fury has no stacks to watch out for, nothing to account for. Arms has FR, executioner's precision, and CS duration. Arms has a proc that requires snap decision making, because it changes your prio on the fly. Arms has a trickier battle cry that you actually should prepare for. While Arms may not have numerous buttons, the rotation is dynamic, it changes constantly based on what is occurring, constantly, and consequently requires a lot of snap decision making.

Fury is static, fury is not dynamic. There are very few decisions to be made outside delaying the occasional OF or BC depending on fight, but the rotation is very very predictable -- you always know what is coming next with Fury. You don't with arms and it is very easy to trip up.

So that's why to me, Arms has more depth and complexity compared to Fury. That's my opinion; I think Arms is a much more difficult spec to master completely.

I guess the nuance is that Arms is more complicated on a GCD basis, on a snap decision basis second by second. Not to mention Arms actually involves a rage management component (Fury has no meaningful rage management, you are just filling the bar as a side effect of your 1 2 3 1 2 3 button presses) Fury is more complex on a macro level as someone pointed out, knowing when to use CDs and when to save them. To me however, the former is what I'd consider more difficult.

[Faerthosx]

From my point of view, fury's difficulty comes from 3 things:

1st) learning to manage well your cd's and start to calculate them around CoF/Odyn's Champion. This is the most important where most of the people fail because either they got 4 good CoF procs and pressed another BC without realizing that chances say they will have only one more CoF proc for the next minute and then they have to delay avatar and DoS for 10-15 sec that may cost them another use in the end, or because they delay their cd's to line up for too much time, thus they lose 1-2 BC pops leading to dps loss. Those mistakes are frequent even to high parsing players, due to the fast pace the spec has, resulting them doing things without thinking in time.

2nd) perfect execute rotation. Execute phase has 2 difficulties on it: a) to retain our juggernaut stacks, also stacking them as fast as possible and b) to retain enrage uptime. Because we can't use rampage since our main rage dump is execute, the only way to enrage ourselves is through BTH crits, which has an RNG aspect on it but we can also help towards this direction with FS. The point is, you have to know when you will prefer to FS -> BTH -> Exe to enrage or you will go with RB -> BTH -> Exe to do more burst, the decision depends on your BC availability and Boss's heath.

3d) on tracking cd's and buff uptimes. Without weak auras fury is unplayable. There are literally tons of things we have to track and take care of that even with weak auras they are gonna be complicated, and doing all these on a fast paced rotation can be mentally demanding. Having for example to retain juggernaut stacks alongside fujieda's fury stacks ( back legendary) on Krosus bridge collapse while also having to press CD's with DoS as fast as you go to the next platform can be extremely hard for the majority of the player's.

[Zensunni]

Fury is a masterfully designed rotation, overall on the simpler side. The spec is very easy to play, very intuitive to get better and better at (when I read a guide, I found I had naturally gravitated toward doing what it said), and then surprisingly down the road a little challenging to master. Eventually you'll be having to make judgments in very small windows to maximize enrage uptime and gauge which CDs to hold for how long depending on the encounter. It's not rocket science, but anyone that says the spec is brain dead is simply ignorant.

Also, this deep into the tier, I wouldn't pay too much attention to parses; all the very high parses at this point are freak padding experiments by people with hyper-optimal gear.

[Deleted]

Fury's complexity comes from not pressing Rampage when you have 99 rage.

[Arbiter]

Fury's complexity comes from not pressing Rampage when you have 99 rage.

Where's your 99th percentile for your ilvl bracket in every fight then? Avoiding Rampage before 100 rage that hard? Certainly you could produce those logs where you're blindly hitting buttons as long as Rampage is being held for 100 rage and performing that high.

[Deleted]

Where's your 99th percentile for your ilvl bracket in every fight then? Avoiding Rampage before 100 rage that hard? Certainly you could produce those logs where you're blindly hitting buttons as long as Rampage is being held for 100 rage and performing that high.

I could produce those logs if I gave a shit about tryhard minmaxing on my alt in nigh-irrelevant content with optimal kill times and legendaries yes.
As I did in EN, when the above was the case.

[Holofernes]

hmm today i got a 100 % log at star augur normal as arms. i have like 15 legendary parses over all bosses available as arms. I despise playing fury because its so fucking numb and braindead spec. Yes sometimes fury has better numbers over a fight, because of cleave stuff. but jesus playing it is so slow, mindless and boring. If u train a bird or dog or whatever to hit keys in the same order over and over again, it would be a 100 % logging fury warrior. There is really no depth to its spec. enrage uptime is nearly 100 % no matter what you do. Rage is not a resource. u stick it to 100 and than press rampage and than repeat.
Cooldown managment for fury is not really a thing, everything lines up perfectly every time, if u dont mess it up. The only thing where fury has some decision making involved iss execute phase, where u have to juggle between not loosing stacks and maximising the dmg buff talent uptime.

If u want depth and complexity, go arms. Most Furys out there can be beaten by a good arms warrior with 10 ilvl less gear, and arms really has a very nice and thoughtful rotation in rage spent to cs resets.

[Arbiter]

I could produce those logs if I gave a shit about tryhard minmaxing on my alt in nigh-irrelevant content with optimal kill times and legendaries yes.
As I did in EN, when the above was the case.

A) You have no record of logs in EN before 7.1.5.
B) EN kills after Nighthold released with 50 second kill times are 100% irrelevant.
C) A screen shot of some bosses and hist % shows nothing.

Not that EN is even relevant at this point regardless considering the talent differences changing some aspects of the play style.

Your current logs don't reflect anything outstanding to begin with, but the whole point is that it's not mindless button mashing. You could linked me logs showing 99th percentile and the rotation would have had to have been very specific and precise to get that high. Mindless button mashing while just making sure you press Rampage at 100 rage isn't getting you anywhere close to it and it's impossible for you to show me any log to suggest that.

- - - Updated - - -

If u want depth and complexity, go arms. Most Furys out there can be beaten by a good arms warrior with 10 ilvl less gear, and arms really has a very nice and thoughtful rotation in rage spent to cs resets.

A bad Fury warrior can be outdpsed by a good Arms warrior, sure. A bad player is a bad player. A good arms warrior with ilvls less isn't going to be outdpsing any good Fury warrior unless they get lucky with RNG. The spec is only capable of so much.

You also have no idea what you're talking about in regards to the spec based on what you're saying about it. Slow? As opposed to arms? Boring? As opposed to Arms where there's points in which nothing procs so you're watching paint dry? Mindless? Neither spec is mindless. The fact that most people can't play them effectively shows that. The spec stacks haste which speeds it up but we also take War Machine quite often making it one of the fastest specs in the game. There is nothing slow about it. High movement, low GCDs, and constant CD usage to unload damage. It's hard hitting and it's fast.

Enrage uptime is rarely near 100% and it 100% matters what you do. One of the quickest indicators of a subpar player is a low enrage uptime. I've seen Fury warriors on these forums as low as 30% uptime. Surely it's because they could do anything and keep near 100% uptime.

With CoF things most certainly don't like up perfectly. It's also less about things lining up and more about effectively using your abilities within those CDs. If it was so easy there would be less people here asking for help with it.

There are currently more Fury warriors here because it's MUCH less RNG, a much better overal rotation, and more more effective. Trying to shit on a spec based on your opinion isn't going to change that.

[Holofernes]

There are more fury warriors because its easier to play (or braindead, is a prefer to call it), and it doesnt really punish mistake, while still beeing very strong dps wise, in all situations.

NO fury warrior with current gear out there stacks haste. wtf are u on? put your char in simc and sim it. it will say that mastery and perhaps even versa is worth more than haste, as is for most nighthold geared fury warriors. Congratz on not understanding how 4 set and new talents (that are several month old) shift statweights for fury warriors.

[Arbiter]

There are more fury warriors because its easier to play (or braindead, is a prefer to call it), and it doesnt really punish mistake, while still beeing very strong dps wise, in all situations.

NO fury warrior with current gear out there stacks haste. wtf are u on? put your char in simc and sim it. it will say that mastery and perhaps even versa is worth more than haste, as is for most nighthold geared fury warriors. Congratz on not understanding how 4 set and new talents (that are several month old) shift statweights for fury warriors.

It changes, but yet again because you lack the knowledge needed for the class you don't know this. Some people have haste being better and some people have mastery being better. Completely depends on the persons gear. And either way you still need to stack haste because even if mastery is better if you lose too much haste then mastery will drop value. All it means is that if mastery is better that means you can prioritize a little bit over haste until that changes again.

It also does punish mistakes very much so, unlike arms where RNG and legendaries is the most punishing factor. Mistakes are easily the difference between 30th percentile and 90+ percentile. Logs do a lot to show that rather than people like you making dumb ass assumptions based on their own opinion.

But you're right, I've been playing warrior in a higher level since wrath and have helped dozens if not hundreds of warrior yet I don't know a damn thing about warriors. Makes a lot of sense. I suppose the person who doesn't play Fury and has spewed 80% false information knows so much more. So "congratz" on not knowing what the hell you're talking about.

There are more Fury warriors because they are objectively better in every single situation in Nighthold and because RNG Arms sucks ass to play currently. "Braindead" has nothing to do with it. I don't feel either spec is particularly easy to play in comparison to most other classes in Legion, but as far as Arms goes most of the difficult behind the spec can be macro'd to make it irrelevant.

[Archimtiros]

There are more fury warriors because its easier to play (or braindead, is a prefer to call it), and it doesnt really punish mistake, while still beeing very strong dps wise, in all situations.

NO fury warrior with current gear out there stacks haste. wtf are u on? put your char in simc and sim it. it will say that mastery and perhaps even versa is worth more than haste, as is for most nighthold geared fury warriors. Congratz on not understanding how 4 set and new talents (that are several month old) shift statweights for fury warriors.

Congrats on not understanding how stat weights work. Haste is actually Fury's best stat, outperforming even Mastery, long term.


There's only one real reason there are more Fury Warriors than Arms - because it's performing better right now, just like there were more Arms Warriors in EN/ToV because it was performing better at the time - same thing that happens every time there's a significant tuning patch. Calling it easier to play is fairly subjective - the base rotation is fairly simple, but the spec also has a lot of nuance, understanding which is directly related to performance. It's not really any easier to play than Arms, the core of which is also a simple repetition of three buttons, but it certainly flows a lot better without as much APM-spike, aka button spam.

[Holofernes]

Im corious to ask why u are wearing mastery heavy gear than? bracer, belt, trouser are all the maximum mastery plate gear, where stuff with way more haste is available. u could gain like 10% haste for loosing some of your mastery. i am pretty sure u dont wear it, because mastery is worth more than haste for you.

[Archimtiros]

Im corious to ask why u are wearing mastery heavy gear than? bracer, belt, trouser are all the maximum mastery plate gear, where stuff with way more haste is available. u could gain like 10% haste for loosing some of your mastery. i am pretty sure u dont wear it, because mastery is worth more than haste for you.

Because that's what gear is available, at an ilvl which is competitive. There's a lot more Mastery than Haste gear in Nightold, and Mythic+ is unreliable, especially at my ilvl.

Don't confuse choice for availability.