Unrest in Spain: the Spanish government is taking control of the Catalan police force

[Deleted]

Soon, they might need to build a giant wall to keep those bad Spanish hombres out!

[Deleted]

While I'm sure that a lot of people have plenty of arguments for and against a possible independent catalonia, this issue has gone far beyond nationalism by now. It has exposed a deeply authoritarian streak of a country that clearly couldn't (or wouldn't) shake off the vestiges of the Franco era.

The ruling party (PP) is formed by the descendants of francoist politicians and generals. The party is involved in over 700 cases of corruption across the country that have been going on for decades, with countless millions stolen from public coffers. They have been caught purposefully bombarding the Catalan public health system and fabricating evidence against politicians to incriminate them. Hell, a few years ago they even attempted to blame the basque separatists for an islamic terrorist attack, openly lying to the public to gain political advantadge. With a ruling party like this, it's easy to understand why it's legitimacy is deeply questionable. All of this tends to slip under the radar at an international level, so it's hard to get a fair context and perspective on what's really going down in Spain at the moment.

The short story is, it would have been fairly easy to allow the Catalan people to vote to remain or to leave. You get the YES and NO campaigns, there's a vote, and democracy happens. It has happened in other countries before, because the world evolves and frontiers change, and there's no reason a region should be forced to remain in a union where it doesn't feel valued and respected. The spanish government has simply chosen threats, press censorship, political oppression and force instead of offering compelling arguments for the Catalan people to stay, and this way of dealing with things fires up the very recent memories of a bloody dictatorship that gripped the country for almost 40 years.

You can be for or against catalan independence, but there's basic rights that are being violated right now by the government in Spain, and that can only end badly for everyone.

[nycnyc88]

I read a great article on this general topic this morning, i highly recommend it
https://www.theautomaticearth.com/20...d-referendums/

There is a third option (very much in favor): to not do anything. But that gets more dangerous all the time. The days that people could just be ignored are gone. Social media have probably played a large role in that. And so have changing power relationships.

The EU is blowing itself up through increasing calls for more Europe just as people want less. I’ve said it often before: centralization stops when and where economic growth does. And despite all the creative accounting we see, economic growth is definitely gone in Europe. Just ask Greece, Spain. Ask the people, not the politicians. People will only accept their decisions being made by far away ‘leaders’ if they perceive them as beneficial to their lives, the lives of their children.

Those days are gone, no matter the propaganda. That’s true all over Europe, and it’s true all across the US. The refusal by incumbent powers to recognize this, admit to it, is what gives us the likes of Trump and Brexit and countless other challengers. That Marine Le Pen and others have failed to date doesn’t mean the status quo wins; others will follow. In that vein I was surprised to see Yanis Varoufakis, whom I hold in very great esteem, declare in name of his DiEM 25 movement that:

“I am not taking sides on whether Catalonia should be independent or not” and “What we’re promoting in DiEM25 would solve the problem. We want a real European Union that becomes a single jurisdiction, a country if you want to call it that. In that scenario, it doesn’t matter if Catalonia is part of Spain!”

Europe will not be one country. Nor should it want to be. Europe has 1000 different ways to work together, and the EU has been an utter failure at that. While it has done a ton of good, it is being -predictably- destroyed by the power politics at its top levels. Nobody ever told Europeans that they would wind up living as German provinces. But that is what they are.

As Varoufakis himself makes abundantly clear is his book Adults in the Room. That’s why Germans have no real choice in today’s election: they have such utter control of the EU they would be crazy to vote against it. But at the same time, the rest of the ‘Union’ would be crazy to let them hold that power.

And I know that DiEM25 wants to change and reform the EU, but how will they do that knowing they need Germany, more than all other countries, to accomplish it, as Germany is sitting so pretty? Calls for a one-country Europe seem at the very least irresponsibly premature. That’s very far from reality. First things first. No cheating. You can’t say it doesn’t matter what happen to the Catalans today because ‘we’ have bigger plans for tomorrow. That means abandoning them. That’s not a new Europe: that’s what they already have todayy

[Blosc]

Before i start, i'll say that i'm from Spain (menorca), which means that i'm aware of what's happening and, unfortunately, my english is far from perfect. Also, i'll say that i'm 100% supporting this vote.

People need to understand that there is nothing democratic about this referendum. See, in any normal referendum every party involved has the right speak and defend their position and views, there is room for debate and all the citizens are grated the oportunity to be informed about what is going on and what is at stake, but that is not what is going on in Catalonia. Anybody who doenst support catalonian nationalism is insulted and attacked, any dissenting opinion is labeled right away as fascism and betrayal. I have family in Catalonia that tell me that any bussines owner that show criticism against the independence or the referendum will have their stores vandalized and its workers bullied.
The goverment of Catalonia rally the people while they wave the banner of democracy and freedom while at the same time invest all their resources and strength in the Pro Yes to independence group. The goverment of Catalonia, wich should be the neutral party in the referendum, that should arbiter beween all the parties involved in the referendum is showing it full support to just one of the parties. The say this is all about their right to speak but at the same time refuse to give voice to anybody who might disagree, they are both judge and jury. This is not a democratic vote, this is a one sided charade that fools no one wich is the reason that the Catalonian goverment have found no support in the UE or anywhere else.

I'm sorry that but i have to disagree with you with all of this:

You say that both parts cannot discuss/debate the topic in Catalonia. And that's true, but because it has been forbidden for the central goverment. Madrid has taken to the Court the Referendum and the justice has forbidden anything that has connection with this matter. For example, the police has taken any publicity pro-referendum (sometimes they have entered the places where it has been printed without an order). On the streets, any paper that calls people to vote has been removed. In madrid city, a meeting, aproved by it's mayor, had been forbidden (in the end, they did it anyway). In some tv shows, they even joke "i don't know if the police will interrupt us anytime now".

Police has been searching for the ballouts for more than a week now. They found some of the voting papers and had been proud about it. There are reports of people being arrested at their homes (but the police offers them the oportunity to "forget everything" if they cooperate). All the pro-referendum mayors (more than 700 (there are less than 1000 in Catalonia)) have been charged by the justice just for saying they approve the referendum. And recently, 14 politicians where finally arrested, some of them spend more than 30h without being able to leave (and now they cannot leave the country).

But there is more, and nobody is talking about it. They ordered the post-office to intercept any letter or document related with the referendum. There are images of deliveries being opened before the delivery because they looked inside. And finally, because there is a lot to say in the matter, they now want to charge everyone who manifest in favor of the referendum with the crime of SEDITION (which may evolve to more than 8 years of prision)

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Thing here is that a 80% of Catalans want to decide their future. This doesn't mean that a 80% want the independence, it's just they want to vote, to have the right to say "yes" or "no". Three years ago there has a vote where the "no"-parties decided to not participate and where, again, people were threatened to be put in jail if they even try to vote. it was a not-vinculant referendum and almost 2 million people participated in it despite the situation.

Then, 2 years ago, a "normal" election proved that 48% of the catalans wanted the independence right now, ~37% voted againts and a ~15% where in the middle. Of that ~15 thare is a party (PSC) that said "Catalonia is a NATION inside Spain". PSC always wanted more privilegies for the region but always in Spain. Another part of that ~15% is Podemos, the third force in Spain that has always said "We want a Referendum for Catalonia, but allowed by the central goverment". So...a 48% that wanted the independence and a~15% that also wanted more than we had before.

Now, with all the repression being done by Madrid, even people that were against, are now changing their mind. For example, there was only 1 University that, in public, said yes to the referendum. Now, there are a lot more.

[Deleted]

In a logic world:

Cataluña: Spain, I want to be indepent.

Spain: Ok, but you have to propose that at the congress and then ask the citizens, before we will have to discuss what do we do with the parts of the economic administration that we share, how do we handle the ports that right now, [ that by law have ownership by the state (wich is Spain)], what do we do with all the agreements we have with third countries about the logistics of your position to the international commerce, what do we do upon the EU if they accept you or if they don´t and what supposes that to our/your citizens. We also have to check all the debt you have with the state, we even have to check how the frontier is going to be, if there are going to be tariffs among countries or not. So instead of being mindless about it lets keep it clear to EVERYBODY how a world with you being indepent is going to be to you and to us, in fact, lets do a list with the points that we have to agree on becouse I don´t really want to be the bad guy here... I mean its not like you get to be indepentent and blame me for every problem you have.

Cataluña: No, it´s clearly not about that, lets get these points clear and then I do the referemdum.

Spain: Ok.

What is happening right now

Cataluña: Spain, I´m holding a referemdum to be indepent and if the result is yes I´m leaving the country.

Spain: No you are not. That´s not how things are done.

Cataluña: Yes I am and I´m doing it.

Spain: I´ll execute art. 155.

Cataluña: You don´t have what it takes. You´ll be the headlines of all newspapers!

Spain: Hold my beer.

[Picander]

You can be for or against catalan independence, but there's basic rights that are being violated right now by the government in Spain, and that can only end badly for everyone.

So you mean that the European Union accepts a dictatorship as member?

[Deleted]

In a logic world:

Cataluña: Spain, I want to be indepent.

Spain: Ok, but you have to propose that at the congress and then ask the citizens, before we will have to discuss what do we do with the parts of the economic administration that we share, how do we handle the ports that right now, [ that by law have ownership by the state (wich is Spain)], what do we do with all the agreements we have with third countries about the logistics of your position to the international commerce, what do we do upon the EU if they accept you or if they don´t and what supposes that to our/your citizens. We also have to check all the debt you have with the state, we even have to check how the frontier is going to be, if there are going to be tariffs among countries or not. So instead of being mindless about it lets keep it clear to EVERYBODY how a world with you being indepent is going to be to you and to us, in fact, lets do a list with the points that we have to agree on becouse I don´t really want to be the bad guy here... I mean its not like you get to be indepentent and blame me for every problem you have.

Cataluña: No, it´s clearly not about that, lets get these points clear and then I do the referemdum.

Spain: Ok.

That would work fine if it was remotely possible. The current spanish government has been notoriously hermetic and closed to negotiations from the start, and even the rest of spanish political parties and the international press have pointed out rather often how uncooperative they have been. Now they have descended into press censorship, political persecution, and vulneration of civil rights, it's getting very ugly for them from an international perspective.

I'm not saying that the catalan government is doing everything fine by any stretch of the imagination, but the spanish government is playing right into their hands by going all authoritarian on the region. A lot of people who were on the side of respecting the law no matter what, are having a very hard time siding with the government right now.

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So you mean that the European Union accepts a dictatorship as member?

A lot of countries have gone through a progressive loss of rights and liberties along the years for multiple reasons. Not saying it's a dictatorship by any means, but certain lines have been crossed and it's a slippery slope from there on.

[Mihalik]

I read a great article on this general topic this morning, i highly recommend it
https://www.theautomaticearth.com/20...d-referendums/

That's a whole lot of drivel dude. Growth is up across the EU, unemployment is going down and the Spanish economy recovered quit a bit, tho there's still a long way to go (this is from someone who ACTUALLY LIVES IN SPAIN), and there are plenty of people who want more integration and not less, ESPECIALLY in places like Spain and France where the idea of a common EU budget is very popular.

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Erm, my studies actually contradict that to quite an extent. Castile and Aragon had been allied by bonds of family, but even a proper personal union did not technically happen until 1555 and legally, Spain as such did not exist for long after, at least until the War of Spanish Succession (which, incidentally, saw Catalan separatism curbed by Madrid). All those Spanish colonies in Latin America? They were Castilian colonies, thank you very much.

Bollocks.

Aragon supporters of the Columbus expedition, Luis de Santangel who even put up substantial amounts of personal fortune to finance the expedition, other supporters, Juan Cabrero a friend of king Ferdinand and Gabriel Sanchez the royal treasurer.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona..._de_las_Indias Here's a list of other Aragonese conquistadors, colonial founders and political supporters. (Can't find an English source)

The Kingdom of Aragon has been deeply involved with the establishment of Spanish colonies in the Americas, financially, politically and militarily.

Also the word "España" as in Spain was first used officially to refer to the union of Castille and Aragon during the lives of Isabel and Ferdinand starting as early as the 1470's.

For intents and purposes no one had separate dealings with Castille or Aragon after 1470's, and when dealing with the Spanish Empire they dealt with the Spanish Empire.

[nycnyc88]

That's a whole lot of drivel dude. Growth is up across the EU, unemployment is going down and the Spanish economy recovered quit a bit, tho there's still a long way to go (this is from someone who ACTUALLY LIVES IN SPAIN), and there are plenty of people who want more integration and not less, ESPECIALLY in places like Spain and France where the idea of a common EU budget is very popular.

Unemployment going down and economy has recovered? According to who? EU politicians? Official statistics that count temp jobs?

Euro QE, just like US QE has popped up the stock markets and made things appear ok, appear is the key word.
France economy is in a complete and total shitter (while still asking for more socialism), as is Spain and basically every EU country with one single probable exception being Germany (which has numerous problems outside of economy).
From another article on the subject

Unsurprisingly, a recent report from Stratfor reveals that many European countries are struggling with the same problem – except the situation is even more dire. As Stratfor explains, jobs offered under part-time and temporary contracts are accounting for an increasingly large share of total employment, while full-time jobs are disappearing at an alarming clip.

In 2003, well before Europe's economic crisis, 15 percent of workers in the European Union were employed under part-time contracts. By 2015, that had risen to 19 percent. Meanwhile, in the US, about 18% of workers are part-time, according to the most recent data available from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

But what's even more discouraging is the rise in temporary-contract based employment, which rose from 9 percent of the total to 11 percent between 2003 and 2015. The share of employees working on temporary contracts is as high as 20% in Poland and Spain. As Stratfor explains, relying on temporary work can have a profoundly negative impact on an employees’ long-term marketability.

“Temporary jobs offer less security than even part-time permanent ones. They often come with lower salaries and fewer training and career advancement opportunities, making it harder for workers to access credit, plan their consumption decisions or qualify for unemployment benefits.”

Already, a sizable chunk of Europe’s labor force has been permanently relegated to the ranks of the working poor.

“Since the start of the 2008 crisis, many Europeans have been forced to accept temporary contracts or permanent part-time jobs when they would rather work on a full-time, permanent basis. In many cases, the part-time or temporary contracts do not offer a path to full-time work. In some countries, low salaries also put the working poor at risk of falling into poverty."

Unsurprisingly, the problem is particularly severe along the European periphery, where the recovery from the 2008 financial crash has been haltingly uneven.

“Jobs that do not offer much security can be found almost everywhere in the European Union, but they are particularly prevalent in the south, such as Greece, Spain and Portugal, where the unemployment crisis was more severe and the economic recovery more fragile. In addition, the structure of the economy in Southern Europe is more conducive to the creation of such precarious jobs.”

Countries in central and eastern Europe are also struggling, though Southern Europe bore the brunt of the crisis’s impact.

“Countries in Central and Eastern Europe like Poland and Bulgaria also have high rates of temporary employment or jobs with low salaries. But unemployment rates rose faster in Southern Europe, where the crisis hit harder. High unemployment and insufficient economic growth in that region exposed the fragility of the banking sectors in several countries, raised questions about the sustainability of their public and private debts, and created a fertile ground for the emergence of anti-system political parties that could threaten the survival of the eurozone.”

While a surge in temporary-job creation is normal during the early stages of an economic recovery, the fact that temporary jobs continue to edge out quality full-time work could ripple out through the broader economy as consumers see their spending power curtailed by low wages and a lack of a benefits.

“The creation of temporary and precarious forms of employment is a normal phenomenon during the early stages of an economic recovery.



Over time, however, they could drag down an economy by limiting the room for growth in domestic demand, for example. In addition, rising income inequality feeds growing social and political tensions.



While unemployment rates are dropping across the board, issues such as job insecurity, low pay, long-term unemployment, and few opportunities for training or career advancement could weigh down Southern Europe's incipient economic recovery.”

Pundits have touted Emmanuel Macron’s victory over Marine Le Pen as evidence that the populist wave in European politics has crested for now; but the economic conditions that enabled the rise of populism haven’t changed.

Indeed, nearly half of the French population voted for one of the two anti-globalization candidates. Expect these policies to continue to resonate as more and more workers are robbed of the dignity and security that accompanies reliable full-time work.

This is exactly what has happened since then with far right getting parliament seats in DE, Catalonia referendum, Brexit, etc. The boiling kettle will contiue to heat up, with politicians trying to hold the lid firmly sealed (since it benefits these politicians). Eventually the kettle will blow. Study history, it wont be prettyy.

The fact that everyone wants to suck on the EU tit (As you say "they" want more integration) - who are they? Workers on various government position? I dont know a single person in EU (France, Spain, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Holland and Sweden, where i have close contacts) who own or try to operate a small business that WANT more intergration, meaning more regulation and more anti-competitive legislation from EU bureaucrats (who cater to their own pockets and to the megacorps who bought them just like "in the land of the free" where i am at now).

[ArguesWithStrangers]

The point I was trying to make is that the nature of the relationship is such that nations with the means to compete militarily do not need to. It's worth pointing out that one of the largest geopolitical rival of the US is Russia...whose economy is smaller than that of Italy. Not every nation like Italy, France, Germany can dispute US interests globally, but they sure as fuck can turn much of the world into a regional pissing contest. It's important to remember that much of the US power rests on the fact that it is beneficial to its partners, which incidentally also happen to be the richest and most powerful nations in the world.

That's why for example an "America first" foreign policy is so dangerous, because it threatens the established power balance.



We aren't discussing the minutia of governance or internal political disputes, but rather what enables those small nations to prosper economically in cooperation with nations that otherwise could be rivals. Integration has been the name of the game for decades now.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_state
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_dependencies

Then you have oddball nations like Greenland, Lesotho, Tokelau, Abkhazia, Taiwan and Palestine. There isn't a comprehensive list that would cover all the whackado categories.

It seems you and I are in a debate of semantics at this point. I don't see participating trade partnerships on mutually agreed terms as a surrender of sovereignty, and therefore don't see the forums established to facilitate such agreements as meeting the criteria of a state. The brass tacks on this discussion is wether or not nationhood is on the decline. As it stands, I don't think so. Free trade and lack of rivals to able to mess with it has allowed an marked increase in wealth across the world, but nations aren't required to surrender their sovereignty to participate in it. If they were, they wouldn't be particpating. Even the US isn't powerful enough to force people to do business against their will.

[Picander]

That would work fine if it was remotely possible. The current spanish government has been notoriously hermetic and closed to negotiations from the start, and even the rest of spanish political parties and the international press have pointed out rather often how uncooperative they have been. Now they have descended into press censorship, political persecution, and vulneration of civil rights, it's getting very ugly for them from an international perspective.

I'm not saying that the catalan government is doing everything fine by any stretch of the imagination, but the spanish government is playing right into their hands by going all authoritarian on the region. A lot of people who were on the side of respecting the law no matter what, are having a very hard time siding with the government right now.

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A lot of countries have gone through a progressive loss of rights and liberties along the years for multiple reasons. Not saying it's a dictatorship by any means, but certain lines have been crossed and it's a slippery slope from there on.

Spain has crossed with Cataluña exactly the same lines that Germany has crossed with Bavaria: http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...erendum-Bayxit

Are you saying that Germany is going to become a dictatorship because its Supreme Court banned a secession referendum in Bavaria?

[Flarelaine]

For intents and purposes no one had separate dealings with Castille or Aragon after 1470's, and when dealing with the Spanish Empire they dealt with the Spanish Empire.

That is true, but internally the realms were kept separate. I think that is at least as relevant here.

[HeiAggra]

One fact to those talking without even knowing the things first hand. Check the books kids learn in catalunya. Know you have a clue why the new generation wants to be independent even without knowing why.

[Deleted]

This thread has too many people talking about things they know too little about.

The Catalan problem is not a fight of hostage people for their freedom. It has been a relentless attempt for over 20 years by a part of the politicians in Cataluña to create a sense of discomfort and anger in the people living in Cataluña. This conflict has no historical argument, no economic argument, and no sociocultural argument. Cataluña was never a kingdom conquered and subjugated by Spain; Spain has invested extensively in Cataluña throughout the years, helping turn it into one of the richest provinces; the Catalan culture and traditions have always been respected (funny story, the last dictator of Spain was the one to ensure that the Catalan laws were recorded so that they were preserved, I bet you the independentists have never told you that one); and people in Spain and Cataluña have no conflicts between themselves.

The only question that matters in all of this is Why. Why are the politicians in Cataluña pushing for this. Why did the politicians in Spain allow this. And why do people now support this. And the answers couldn´t be more simple:
- The politicians in Cataluña are absurdly corrupt and have been so for years. And it has been proven. The main politicial party, Junts per si, has so many scandals in side that if they remain in Spain they will be soon prosecuted and incarcelated. Getting independence saves their asses.
- The politicians in the rest of Spaind didn´t solve the Catalan crisis and instead gave in to some of their demands because it benefited them; in the last 25 years very few governments have had enough votes to govern by themselves. Spain only has (had) 2 major political parties. The other party has no incentives to negotiating with you, since they want you to do as badly as possible so they are elected in the next legislature. So the governing party ends up closing deals with minorities (in this case, Catalan parties), thus giving them power. If they had finished the Catalan issue they wouldn´t have had the opportunity of closing those deals, so it benefited them. As sad as this sounds.
- People don´t want indepence. Ask any Catalan why they think independence is better. They want a good government that is not corrupt, job opportunities and prosperity. The same as every fucking European. They have just been led to believe they will achieve that with independence, something that every fucking decent economicst will tell you is a lie.

Now of course this makes for a great show in TV, but this is the fate of a country (Spain) and of a union (EU) that we are talking about here. People are treating this topic as if it was a videogame and it has real consequences that will fuck up the lives of many, many people in Europe.

[Blosc]

This thread has too many people talking about things they know too little about.

The Catalan problem is not a fight of hostage people for their freedom. It has been a relentless attempt for over 20 years by a part of the politicians in Cataluña to create a sense of discomfort and anger in the people living in Cataluña. This conflict has no historical argument, no economic argument, and no sociocultural argument. Cataluña was never a kingdom conquered and subjugated by Spain; Spain has invested extensively in Cataluña throughout the years, helping turn it into one of the richest provinces; the Catalan culture and traditions have always been respected (funny story, the last dictator of Spain was the one to ensure that the Catalan laws were recorded so that they were preserved, I bet you the independentists have never told you that one); and people in Spain and Cataluña have no conflicts between themselves.

The only question that matters in all of this is Why. Why are the politicians in Cataluña pushing for this. Why did the politicians in Spain allow this. And why do people now support this. And the answers couldn´t be more simple:
- The politicians in Cataluña are absurdly corrupt and have been so for years. And it has been proven. The main politicial party, Junts per si, has so many scandals in side that if they remain in Spain they will be soon prosecuted and incarcelated. Getting independence saves their asses.
- The politicians in the rest of Spaind didn´t solve the Catalan crisis and instead gave in to some of their demands because it benefited them; in the last 25 years very few governments have had enough votes to govern by themselves. Spain only has (had) 2 major political parties. The other party has no incentives to negotiating with you, since they want you to do as badly as possible so they are elected in the next legislature. So the governing party ends up closing deals with minorities (in this case, Catalan parties), thus giving them power. If they had finished the Catalan issue they wouldn´t have had the opportunity of closing those deals, so it benefited them. As sad as this sounds.
- People don´t want indepence. Ask any Catalan why they think independence is better. They want a good government that is not corrupt, job opportunities and prosperity. The same as every fucking European. They have just been led to believe they will achieve that with independence, something that every fucking decent economicst will tell you is a lie.

Now of course this makes for a great show in TV, but this is the fate of a country (Spain) and of a union (EU) that we are talking about here. People are treating this topic as if it was a videogame and it has real consequences that will fuck up the lives of many, many people in Europe.

As a catalan living in menorca, i have to say that only one point of all of what you have said is true: there are corruption in Catalonia, as there is in any other part of Spain (PP, the one ruling the country, it is said to be the most corrupted party of Europe). However, it's false that "Junts pel si" has "so many scandals" as you have pointed. Junts pel si is a coalition of two parties: PDCat and ERC. ERC is clean, no corruption.

It is true that Spain has never conquered Catalonia, just because Catalonia has been a kingdom (and i wish i could have been, but it was not). However, Spain has subjugated the region many times. In 1640, "Catalonia" (because back then we cannot speak of Catalonia of Spain as we see it now) separated from "Spain" and joined "France" as it's own Republic. It was a short separation (few years), but it happened...in truth, Portugal took advantage of the situation and claimed it's independence in that moment.

Catalonia was subjugated after france abandoned the region for the military loses. But it was not the only time. General Spartero bombarded Barcelona for shitty reasons and also claimed that Barcelona should be bombarded every 50 years, just in case. Primo the Rivera and Franco attacked the catalan people to the extend to exterminate it's culture.

I'm not going to speak about 1714 because it's very complex and i don't think it was a conquest. It was clearly a civil war and the catalans lost again.

It has been a relentless attempt for over 20 years by a part of the politicians in Cataluña

As i said, it's not true. Thing are even older than 1640. Even Fernando (catholic monarch) tried to have a son with another woman in a attempt to save the kingdom of Aragon to fall into Castilian hands. Of all the episodes that had happened, i will like to remark the one that happened in the II Republic: Catalonia declared it's independence on it's own. It was a matter of hours after they changed theirs minds, but it was because the central goverment promised privilegies (just like Cameron did to Scotland days before the Referendum). Nothing changed and Franco arrived.

- The politicians in the rest of Spaind didn´t solve the Catalan crisis and instead gave in to some of their demands because it benefited them

They never solved the crisis because after 2014, they never saw it as a crisis. After the 2014-9-11 vote, they expected the catalans be joking. But they saw nearly 2 million people (of 5.4 people that can vote) voting, even after threatening them to go to jail if they try to vote. Then, they saw how an election put a pro-independence power to the Parlament, which promised to make the referendum, no matter the cost.

Also, Spain never give anything to Catalonia. The catalan president, Artur Mas, gave Mariano Rajoy, president of Spain, a document with more than 20 demands. Rajoy said they will look to it and never spoke again of it. Furthermore -and that's what started everything- when Catalonie wrote a new Statut (like a Constitution for the region), Mariano Rajoy asked for signs all over spain against it. The Parlament of Spain cut that Statut and removed even laws that were allowed in other regions of Spain...but just because was Catalonia who asked, they didn't allowed it.

the Catalan culture and traditions have always been respected (funny story, the last dictator of Spain was the one to ensure that the Catalan laws were recorded so that they were preserved, I bet you the independentists have never told you that one);

You could speak Spanish and external languages. But not catalan. I don't know were you read this. All catalan privileges, given by the II republic, were removed.

In Spain, catalans are so respected that they send the armed police for you before you do anything wrong. Just yesterday, when more GC (police) where leaving Huelva to go to Catalonia, people concentrated around them to show their support and claimed "Go for them!"

People don´t want indepence. Ask any Catalan why they think independence is better.

A 80% want to vote yes or no. And, according to the last election, a 48% wants independence (it was an elecction with more than two options).

Catalans don't care if it's going to be better or worse once they reach the independence. Of course they think it will be better. Right now, they know that if they stay, things are never to be better, only worse for them.

The Catalan problem is not a fight of hostage people for their freedom.

It was a figth for the independence until recently, when police started to close websites, register locals and arrested people (civils and politics). Now, it's a figth agains the Central Goverment and it's non-democratic moves, like looking into your mail to see if you're a pro-independentist one. And the independence is seen as the victory against that goverment.

They have just been led to believe they will achieve that with independence, something that every fucking decent economicst will tell you is a lie.

Hope is a human valor. We don't know what will happen if Catalonia reach it's independence. What we know is that Catalonia is one of the richiest regions of Spain, that sustains the others (the Treasury's Minister admited that Spain is sustained by 4 of the 17 regions: Madrid, Valencia, Baleares and Catalonia), so catalans think they will have more money if Madrid doesn't take it.

[Tackhisis]

But not catalan. I don't know were you read this.

Care to explain why every Spanish typewriter had the Ç key then?

[Astalnar]

Spain is not helping their side of argument. Until now Catalans always decided to stay in, now with passions running high, they might decide they want out. After all, with Brussels running the show Madrid is only intermediary who leeches the money from Catalonia.

[Blosc]

Care to explain why every Spanish typewriter had the Ç key then?

Portugal and France also have this letter. Even spanish had it in the centuries after the latin.

Fortunately, "Barça" (football club of Catalonia) was written with the "ç" even with Franco. But i've to say that in the first match Barça - Madrid (the Madrid football club was recently created when it happened), Barça was so much better that in the pause they threatened the players to let Madrid win.

[Zoibert the Bear]

Spain is not helping their side of argument. Until now Catalans always decided to stay in, now with passions running high, they might decide they want out. After all, with Brussels running the show Madrid is only intermediary who leeches the money from Catalonia.

Catalonia has taken more money from Madrid than has given for the past 5 years. What kind of bullshit argument is that?

Madrid has payed much more money that it has received as well, but I don't see them asking for an illegal and undemocratic referendum.

Do me and my friends get to democratically vote on lowering YOUR salary? No, you should get to vote as well, not for Puigdemont though, it's as close to fascism as it gets.

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Not in my book; to me it is more a "divorce" situation and as ususal "the other part" has no say in it.
Why keep someone hostage who doesnt want to be part of the bigger union anymore ?

Because it is not a Union in the first place, and the very constitution that the Catalans voted in favor off (85%+) pretty clearly states that any affair that brings changes to all citizens of the Kingdom of Spain must be available to vote by every Spaniard.

[Astalnar]

Catalonia has taken more money from Madrid than has given for the past 5 years. What kind of bullshit argument is that?

Madrid has payed much more money that it has received as well, but I don't see them asking for an illegal and undemocratic referendum.

Do me and my friends get to democratically vote on lowering YOUR salary? No, you should get to vote as well, not for Puigdemont though, it's as close to fascism as it gets.

What are you on about? I don't understand how your argument about salary connects to anything.

Madrid is the very capital of Spain. Catalonia is just a part of Spain. A part that wants to be governed by itself. Spaniards and Catalans, last I checked, are two different ethnic groups. For all I care, if Madrid wants to become independent city state they should have the ability to do so. After all, that is their perogative according to Article I of the Charter of the United Nations.

"All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."
-source

If you want more details: http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-cha...r-i/index.html

The very idea that majority inside of an entity can decide the future of minority is fascistic, if you want to throw that term around. If what you said would be true, then no country who sought it's independence from Spain in South America would have the right to secede. No country that was part of Austro-Hungarian Empire would have the right to their own independence. Soviet Union wouldn't be only Russia today, and the United States would still be part of the British Crown. People have the right to decide for themselves their own place in the world, and their future. If you just take the world map in your hands, you'll see who is right on this issue, you or me.