New 2.4 Build - Classes and TTR changes

[Pyrostemplar]

Oh - and retri paladins can get retri T6 set when they have to spec holy to get it then ?

..

That is one (probably the best) way - since retri palas, unlike their holy counterparts - are wanted only in very limited amounts. Not to say there is no place for one in a raid, but there is no lack of DPS classes that usually do a better job (fittingly so).

Ofc you can also get it by being the sole retri pala in the raid (although retri is the poor spec of an otherwise lovely class).

Unfair? No, if anything there are already too many palas in end game raiding (last time I checked they were the class with highest representation). There are many specs that are not much wanted in raids/have one spot at most (and that is being nice). But the same is true (or even more true) to other aspects of the game (e.g. Arenas).

[Daedalon]

That is one (probably the best) way - since retri palas, unlike their holy counterparts - are wanted only in very limited amounts. Not to say there is no place for one in a raid, but there is no lack of DPS classes that usually do a better job (fittingly so).

Ofc you can also get it by being the sole retri pala in the raid (although retri is the poor spec of an otherwise lovely class).

Unfair? No, if anything there are already too many palas in end game raiding (last time I checked they were the class with highest representation). There are many specs that are not much wanted in raids/have one spot at most (and that is being nice). But the same is true (or even more true) to other aspects of the game (e.g. Arenas).

ERm - you do realise that retri pala T6 has diffrent items than Holy paladin set ? So you think any guild would allow a holy paladin to be holy and then take Retri set instead of making him more viable in raid has healing class.

Are the 3 diffrent specs of warlocks faced with this problem ? No - so the point about 2 warlock specs beeing as bad as paladin specs is just false. Utter crapp. Since that warlock can still change his spec and use same T6 item to benefit the "broken" specs.

Last time you checked is always nice argument instead of bringing out the facts. Show us the statistics and you might have a point. Or at least show us the "last time u checked" stats - just so we know where you get your information from.

There are many specs not wanted in raids? - oh name me one plz... We are kiling illidan and we even have a OOmkin - but no way we use Retribution paladin. And we now run it with 4 holy priests since they are have alot more healing power in a shaman/shadow priest group than any other healing class. Oh and... that takes our priests in raid up to 6. Wonder if they are not represnted enough in PVE - or if they are suffering badly in PVP. Last time I checked they were not http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=4957.0.

And warlocks ... Ive yet to go into a raid where I see less than 3 warlocks in it. But I've been in plenty of raids with just two paladins.

And yes - we have killied Illidan - I know what IM talking about. And all these facts are pre 2.4. Things will get alot worse for paladins come that patch with the changes to spirit/intellect. Then you will see the true meaning of beeing a buffadin. But now its 30 min buff so an alt can provide that standing outside instance.

Some of us actually see where this is heading. Others - like yourself have no clue.

[insidelane]

It's not our fault that the paladin class has 3 trees and god forbid that one of them not be 100% viable for end game raiding. You are a hybrid; best of all 3 worlds.

I don't know why you are complaining about a spec (that does have its benefits - BoW anyone?) that is not always wanted in raids when you have two other completely viable specs.

[Daedalon]

It's not our fault that the paladin class has 3 trees and god forbid that one of them not be 100% viable for end game raiding. You are a hybrid; best of all 3 worlds.

I don't know why you are complaining about a spec (that does have its benefits - BoW anyone?) that is not always wanted in raids when you have two other completely viable specs.

Dunno what ur on about m8 - Wisdom is not needed for trash clearing - And it can be buffed before bossfight outside instance - leaving it on for 30 mins. THat paladin doesn't have to be inside the instance.

We run with 4 holy priests in raids atm and 1 holy paladin. 2 paladins in raids - up to 6 priests - killing illidan. And we need to lower the numbers of paladins in 25 man raiding content? Or maybe its time to change the buffs?

You do realise that 16 of my talent points go into having 5 diffrent buffs when all maxed out ? I personally use 1 of those buff. And I dont even need the improved 5 mp5 - 2 talent point cost for that.

Maybe we should put that into perspective. Healing druids and Priest are getting over 150 EXTRA mp5 for free come 2.4 while casting. 40 mp5 wisdom ? Nah - maybe worth buffing before some bosses from outsite but defently not worth putting a gimped class into an instance.

You are another of those players that have no understanding of other classes -all you are happy about that others have to suffer cause u will benefit from it.

Well - good luck to you. You must have alot of good paladin friends.

[Pyrostemplar]

ERm - you do realise that retri pala T6 has diffrent items than Holy paladin set ? So you think any guild would allow a holy paladin to be holy and then take Retri set instead of making him more viable in raid has healing class.

Not a problem for farm status raids... once enough people have their T6 tokens.

Are the 3 diffrent specs of warlocks faced with this problem ? No - so the point about 2 warlock specs beeing as bad as paladin specs is just false. Utter crapp. Since that warlock can still change his spec and use same T6 item to benefit the "broken" specs.

Actually, the lock itemization is different according to spec. If you are affliction you will stack SP damage. Destro (most likely spec on end game raiding) will also take hit, haste and crit. So get better informed please.

Last time you checked is always nice argument instead of bringing out the facts. Show us the statistics and you might have a point. Or at least show us the "last time u checked" stats - just so we know where you get your information from.

Wow Web Stats - usually 1st page of a few bosses. Last time I checked was quite a while ago, so I just did a review (1st page of Illidan kills). copy and C&P into a spreadsheet, removed parses that were not aligned due to C&P issues. Results of 42 WWS submissions (1 was clearly invalid, 5 were out due to the alignment issue - from the resulting 44, 2 were removed for having 26 players):

class:RogueMageWarlockHunterWarriorPriestDruidPalaShammy
Nº (116,7avg)969210083126126111138178
Relative rep82% 79% 86% 71% 108% 108% 95% 118% 153%

Population index 102% 115% 99% 118% 121% 96% 87% 90% 72%


Adjusted for Population81% 69% 87% 60% 89% 112% 110% 131% 212%

It seems that palas lost their spot for shammies. A sign of things to come?

There are many specs not wanted in raids? - oh name me one plz... We are kiling illidan and we even have a OOmkin - but no way we use Retribution paladin. And we now run it with 4 holy priests since they are have alot more healing power in a shaman/shadow priest group than any other healing class. Oh and... that takes our priests in raid up to 6. Wonder if they are not represnted enough in PVE - or if they are suffering badly in PVP. Last time I checked they were not http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=4957.0.

And warlocks ... Ive yet to go into a raid where I see less than 3 warlocks in it. But I've been in plenty of raids with just two paladins.

And yes - we have killied Illidan - I know what IM talking about. And all these facts are pre 2.4. Things will get alot worse for paladins come that patch with the changes to spirit/intellect. Then you will see the true meaning of beeing a buffadin. But now its 30 min buff so an alt can provide that standing outside instance.

Some of us actually see where this is heading. Others - like yourself have no clue.

For starters, there are specs that are not wanted in raids at all (e.g. disc priest,...) and specs that are not stacked (off specs where there is only room for one). If your guild does not want a retri pala over a Boomkin (personally I would rather have the first than the second - abstractly speaking), it is your choice really - many setups work. It may mean that they need the palas they have for healing, or that their Boomkin is better performing than the candidate retri pala... you certainly should know better the reasons than myself (and I don't care about them tbqh).

But what is your point? Whining about retri palas not being stacked in raids (which is quite sensible - "there is spot for one at most" seems to be the common opinion and palas have a more important and viable raid role), whining about other healing classes being better or whining over other classes being more represented in raids (something that you really shouldn't complain about ^^)?

Edit: some typos and included population/class index (source: http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php, lvl 70 chars on all servers only)

[Karumi]

Is anyone able to clarify the haste change? I play a rogue and i'm just wondering if Heroism will still stack with Slice 'n' dice and/or Blade flurry.

[Sulika]

Can you cite your reference on this one? The proc chance has not been increased at all to my knowledge and has not been documented in the Official Patch Notes nor in the Undocumented Changes on either MMO-Champion, WorldofRaids, WoWhead, or WowDB.

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=27521#comments

The tooltip still says 2%, the effect however now procs 5% and testing seems to bear this out which appears to have been a stealth buff in 2.3. The comment there and several on the IED page itself discuss it.

8 mana. yea its a buff by definition. *insert wanking sign here*

A buff is a buff. I was just pointing out your mistake (remember, the imaginary nerf you were all upset about ...)

FoL spamming paladin? how many of those do you know? if you FoL spam in a fight where you're MT healing, you lose. The fact that you even bring this up indicates you really dont play or know anything about holy paladins. Let me break it down. I'll use the priest example but I can do it for any other healing class. Hell shaman can single target heal just as well as us and no one brings them to raids for that. They have the OP chain heal...

Ignoring your ranting if you only use holy light then Libram of Souls Redeemed is getting buffed for you, since they are increasing the benefit to Holy Light from 105 to 120 increase, it gets nerfed for FoL spam. So it seems that as far as you are concerned both librams you claimed were getting nerfed are in fact getting buffed which kind of takes some of the wind out of your Blizz want to kill paladins conspiracy.

It is interesting that all I did was point out that the items you claim were being nerfed have in fact been buffed. I have to ask why you cared if you then turn around and claim no paladin in their right mind would have used those items anyway. If as you claim you believe Holy Light spam is the only way to go, then in fact both librams and the IED have been buffed.

But that won't matter to you. You have adopted the "Oh no the sky is falling, blizz hate paladins" attitude and it will take far more than mere evidence to sway you from that.

[insidelane]

Dunno what ur on about m8 - Wisdom is not needed for trash clearing - And it can be buffed before bossfight outside instance - leaving it on for 30 mins. THat paladin doesn't have to be inside the instance.

Clearly I was talking about Judgment of Wisdom, my bad. (IE a plus for ret pallies.)

We run with 4 holy priests in raids atm and 1 holy paladin. 2 paladins in raids - up to 6 priests - killing illidan. And we need to lower the numbers of paladins in 25 man raiding content? Or maybe its time to change the buffs?

Cool, well obviously your priests are better at healing then your pallies. I know I wouldn't trust anyone else with MT healing than our leading holy pally

You do realise that 16 of my talent points go into having 5 diffrent buffs when all maxed out ? I personally use 1 of those buff. And I dont even need the improved 5 mp5 - 2 talent point cost for that.

You do realise that I have to choose my talents that will entail using two completely different styles of healing (CoH and Imp spirit)??

Maybe we should put that into perspective. Healing druids and Priest are getting over 150 EXTRA mp5 for free come 2.4 while casting. 40 mp5 wisdom ? Nah - maybe worth buffing before some bosses from outsite but defently not worth putting a gimped class into an instance.

Hhahahaha, you're joking right? Paladins have by FAR the most mana out of all the healing classes (in terms of +int on their gear). If anything this is a massive buff for paladins.

You are another of those players that have no understanding of other classes -all you are happy about that others have to suffer cause u will benefit from it.

Well - good luck to you. You must have alot of good paladin friends.

Seems I do. Also seems your raid thinks you're a lot worse then their priests.

[Smith]

A buff is a buff. I was just pointing out your mistake (remember, the imaginary nerf you were all upset about ...)

A buff is not JUST a buff. There are varying degrees of such things and coming to us and saying LoAT is getting an 8 mana buff is like saying you get an extra 5 marshmallows in your lucky charms. It doesn't matter, cause you're going to eat them all before the milk anyway.

Ignoring your ranting if you only use holy light then Libram of Souls Redeemed is getting buffed for you, since they are increasing the benefit to Holy Light from 105 to 120 increase, it gets nerfed for FoL spam. So it seems that as far as you are concerned both librams you claimed were getting nerfed are in fact getting buffed which kind of takes some of the wind out of your Blizz want to kill paladins conspiracy.

If we want to do patch compilation, then that 15 heals (wewt) increase doesn't compensate for the down-ranking penalty received previously. Sure its a buff for this patch, but claiming paladins are getting "buffs" in this patch is like saying a .01$ donation to charity does something worth a damn. [Holy shock aside which I have yet to see viability for in PVE other than trash clearing.]

As for your last statement. I never said they were getting nerfed. I never said Blizz wanted to kill paladins. All I said was what was in my post and that was solely that playing Paladins sucks now cause the only place we have in raids is buffing. Every other healer is more viable. I mean, you can't look at our 41 pt talent and say its good. Its laughable. Compare it to: Tree form, Earth shield, CoH. Those are interesting talents worth their weight in 1 point. Ours is just crap. Yay half mana cost for 15 whopping seconds. Get a couple crits yay mana back...awww DI is gone.

It is interesting that all I did was point out that the items you claim were being nerfed have in fact been buffed. I have to ask why you cared if you then turn around and claim no paladin in their right mind would have used those items anyway. If as you claim you believe Holy Light spam is the only way to go, then in fact both librams and the IED have been buffed.

Wtf are you talking about? I (again) never said they were being nerfed, just that the "buff" was insufficient. The "problem" with the class isn't librams anyway. There are fundamental issues that need to be reworked. I also never said that "no paladin in their right mind would use those items anyway." Where do you get this stuff? They are good items. When you hear that they are receiving a buff and then it gets (all but) retracted, its a little disheartening especially when the amount downgraded was as much as it was.

To finish with this quote, how has the IED been buffed? There is absolutely no way that the IED has been buffed for a HL paladin. With HL being our highest critting heal, the chance proc from illumination is now gone. So what made it buffed? Dont bring up 5% proc rate, because until it is in patch notes or live, I'm not going to believe comments on a webpage. This doesnt change the fact that it was nerfed for holy paladins either. If they keep this 5% proc rate and the illumination trigger, then we're a bit better off. Now we've just had a class advantage taken away from us. Hence, nerf.

But that won't matter to you. You have adopted the "Oh no the sky is falling, blizz hate paladins" attitude and it will take far more than mere evidence to sway you from that.

Now you're just being a prat. I'm pointing out the state of a specific class. I in no way think blizz *hates* paladins, yet you take every point I made that had legitimacy and ignore it. I think you confused my post with someone elses. Either that or you're 14. It's hard to tell. Don't mean to insult either, but you really dont know how to formulate, much less express, any kind of argument.

-Smith

PS. I love playing my paladin. I just wish we weren't the bastard children of healing.

[Smith]

Hhahahaha, you're joking right? Paladins have by FAR the most mana out of all the healing classes (in terms of +int on their gear). If anything this is a massive buff for paladins.

I never thought I'd see the day... The above poster was right. You really do know nothing about other classes.

Insidelane, paladins have mana regen based on casting. Spirit in no way is useful while casting. Paladins have NO spirit (I think mine is sitting with 120 or something). Thats why good holy priests play the 5 second rule with casting because they get to keep like 800mp5 between casts. Just because paladins have a ton of int, doesnt mean anything. That increase is based on the amount of spirit relative to the amount of intel. Spirit, we have none. If we did, we wouldnt be a spam casting class. Because we are a spam casting class, we have ABSOLUTELY 0 REGEN from spirit.

Might want to read up before postin such jargon.

-Smith

PS If your holy paladin is your best MT healer, your holy priests are bad.

[insidelane]

Oh right I guess I misunderstood the change to Intel/Spirit then. And yes I do know that Palies have next to 0 spirit on their gear -_-


And to the holy pally MT healer remark, I'm just saying that I'd rather let him handle the MT healing then me; not really a question of skill more then I prefer raid healing spot MT healing then just sticking on the MT the whole fight.

[Smith]

And to the holy pally MT healer remark, I'm just saying that I'd rather let him handle the MT healing then me; not really a question of skill more then I prefer raid healing spot MT healing then just sticking on the MT the whole fight.

"I know I wouldn't trust anyone else with MT healing than our leading holy pally"

Hmm...

Anyway...
1. You can raid heal.

2. Paladins can't. Might as well make them MT heal.

[madrok]

they already changed the petheal back... suckers, was great with 100% despell/decurse chance ;(

[Darkblaze]

The thing about Haste rating from other not stacking,,, does that mean huntards cant get that ghost wolf pet any more?

[Mazorp]

Concerning the 21% of base mana, as I play a gnome mage it is even worse :

4376*0.21 : 918.96

The current blink cost is 627.... Weren' they supposed to lower it, rather thant upping to by 291 !
They must have made a mistake somewhere >

That's not what base mana means. Base mana is literally the base. You know when you'd level and it'd say "You gain 64 mana and blahblah health"? That's what its referring to. So it's reduced as the current mana cost of Blink is 28% of base mana.

[Deamon]

21% of BASE mana is the what you have undressed. I can't remember what my mage is right now, about 3500X0.21=735mana. This is a change from the current blink cost of 28% BASE mana 3500X.28=980mana.

My blink spell (human mage 4226 mana naked) costs 627, that's 15% of base mana. This 21% of base mana is a NERF. Plain and simple. It works out to 882 mana for me, that's 225 MORE mana. WTF? didn't they say they are REDUCING the cost? Obviously they don't know what reducing is.

[malbs]

The thing about Haste rating from other not stacking,,, does that mean huntards cant get that ghost wolf pet any more?

that got nurf'd a couple of patches ago.

[Kaelon]

My blink spell (human mage 4226 mana naked) costs 627, that's 15% of base mana. This 21% of base mana is a NERF. Plain and simple. It works out to 882 mana for me, that's 225 MORE mana. WTF? didn't they say they are REDUCING the cost? Obviously they don't know what reducing is.

This is how I interpret this as well. It sounds like they are nerfing (i.e., increasing the mana cost of) Blink.

[Kellan]

My blink spell (human mage 4226 mana naked) costs 627, that's 15% of base mana. This 21% of base mana is a NERF. Plain and simple. It works out to 882 mana for me, that's 225 MORE mana. WTF? didn't they say they are REDUCING the cost? Obviously they don't know what reducing is.

Naked mana is not base mana...

Intellect gives mana on top of base mana, even base intellect does that so remove the mana gained from intellect from your naked mana and that should be your base mana, I think. You'll find that blink costs a lot less now =)

[bluspacecow]

My blink spell (human mage 4226 mana naked) costs 627, that's 15% of base mana. This 21% of base mana is a NERF. Plain and simple. It works out to 882 mana for me, that's 225 MORE mana. WTF? didn't they say they are REDUCING the cost? Obviously they don't know what reducing is.

Or maybe you could I don't know put your money where your mouth is and log on the PTR realm and check?

Go on ...I dare you to