Raiding as a B(OOM)kin

[Ganim]

So I did my first Naxxramas raid yesterday, and I have to say, I am very disappointed. Almost every single boss fight I was running into mana issues. With basically the removal of potting, I cannot keep my mana up. Anyone else running into this problem?

[Talliar]

no. im a good druid.


whats your cast rotation?

edit- also link your talent build

[Ganim]

Typically I lay IS,Moonfire,Imp FF, then wrath for eclipse proc, then starfire until dots are done then relay them so on and so forth.

EDIT: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...h=000000000000

Also dont say its because I didn't take dreamstate, the other druid in the raid had dreamstate and still was going OOM constantly, especially during Patchwerk and Maxxaenna

[ozmethod]

Im going to assume you are Ganim on Kargath. Looking over your armory, you have a very, very low amount of hit. Chances are you are missing often, which equates to mana spent on a spell that did not damage, and regenned no mana via Moonkin aura.

I think it's been established that IS is not worth keeping up on the boss, unless the tank just really, really needs the debuff.

Also, did you have a replenisher? It's almost required now to have a SV hunter, ret pally or SP.

I've not had the smallest bit of mana issues on my boomkin.

[Edeila]

First of all drop IS and imp FF, both are a complete waste of points for by EJ as they only affect you/ or have poor dmg coefficients.

Typical rotation should be Moonfire + Starfire x7 and repeat providing you have the glyph of starfire.
~ About a 23sec rotation.

With the points from Imp FF dump them in to imp moonfire (this should be up 100% of the time) and the last in dreamstate.

With no IS and Imp FF you get off about 3 more starfire's per 46sec rotation (roughly, FF is 45sec :/), which in addition give you 3 more attempts to crit to get 2% mana back.

Hope that helpssssssss.

Natures Splender wouldn't hurt either.... gives you another starfire in your rotation.

EDIT: Effect fail at math , Zzzzz

[Degrador]

Typically I lay IS,Moonfire,Imp FF, then wrath for eclipse proc, then starfire until dots are done then relay them so on and so forth.

If you're having mana troubles then I'd avoid Wrath. IMO Eclipse isn't worth the trouble and the talent points, and Wrath is a mana sink anyway.

EDIT: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...h=000000000000

Firstly, what glyphs?

As for the spec, why not Nature's Splendor? For one talent point you'll get an extra tick out of both moonfire and IS, and with glyph of moonfire it should tick for about 900, and IS should tick for about 500. Assuming you're keeping them up (and you have glyph of starfire) that's about 70 extra DPS just for 1 talent point. Easily worth it IMO. I'd take it out of Typhoon - it's really not going to be that useful in raiding as for trash it'll piss your tank off possibly causing threat issues, and for a boss it's not worth the mana cost.

Also dont say its because I didn't take dreamstate, the other druid in the raid had dreamstate and still was going OOM constantly, especially during Patchwerk and Maxxaenna

Yeah, I don't think Dreamstate would make a huge difference, but if you're going OOM then you're much better off taking it and reducing OOM time. I'd take the points out of Eclipse and put them in Dreamstate. Then just stick with a standard FF, Moonfire, IS, Starfire spam rotation - you'll have more mana due to Dreamstate, and you'll save mana by not casting Wrath. Plus you don't have to worry about watching for procs or anything, just watch the dots and re-apply when needed, otherwise spam starfire.

[jjam6217]

Try picking up the 3 main mana talents, dreamstate, intensity and omen. And then stick with a starfire, moonfire rotation with the associated glyphs.

[Degrador]

First of all drop IS and imp FF, both are a complete waste of points for by EJ as they only affect you/ or have poor dmg coefficients.

Wha? IS reduces target chance to hit by 3% - that's a big difference given how much your tank would strive for a free 3% dodge for instance, assuming you don't have a hunter using scorpid sting or the hunter wants to use a different sting. If you do have a hunter using scorpid sting, then the glyph of IS actually makes this quite a valuable spell DPS wise.

Imp FF increases all casters' chance to hit, plus giving a nice 3% chance to crit to you - whilst you might say that casters should be hit capped anyway, I think it's pretty safe to expect that this early in the game they won't be. Once they are, then yeah, the 3% chance to crit isn't worth it on its own.

Typical rotation should be Moonfire + Starfire x7 and repeat providing you have the glyph of starfire.
~ About a 20sec rotation.

With the points from Imp FF dump them in to imp moonfire (this should be up 100% of the time) and the last in dreamstate.

With no IS and Imp FF you get off about 3 more starfire's per 40sec rotation (roughly, FF is 45sec :/), which in addition give you 3 more attempts to crit to get 2% mana back.

With the rest of this I pretty much agree - starfire spam is a better approach than relying on eclipse.

[Holmendis]

Your biggest problem is that your talents are built around wrath... which is very expensive.

Boost mana:
1. DREAMSTATE!!!

Get more bang for your buck:
1. Glyph of moonfire & insect swarm (increase dot damage)
2. Genesis instead of starlight wrath (increase dot damage)
3. Improved moonfire (increase dot damage)
4. Nature's splendor (again, increase dot damage)

You can build your rotation around eclipse and still not run out of mana. Best of all, you'll be on top of dps chart.

Try this build:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

Edit - Yes, glyph of IS will remove the -hit chance, but the increased dot damage will easily make this the most mana efficient dot in the game. Something to think about if you're worried about OOM and still want to maintain your dps.

[Edeila]

Wha? IS reduces target chance to hit by 3% - that's a big difference given how much your tank would strive for a free 3% dodge for instance, assuming you don't have a hunter using scorpid sting or the hunter wants to use a different sting. If you do have a hunter using scorpid sting, then the glyph of IS actually makes this quite a valuable spell DPS wise.

Imp FF increases all casters' chance to hit, plus giving a nice 3% chance to crit to you - whilst you might say that casters should be hit capped anyway, I think it's pretty safe to expect that this early in the game they won't be. Once they are, then yeah, the 3% chance to crit isn't worth it on its own.

With the rest of this I pretty much agree - starfire spam is a better approach than relying on eclipse.

Hrm forgot about the glyph, but still doesn't do nearly as much dmg as moonfire, neither does it stay up as long. Much better and easier to MF Starfire spam.
3% hit, all spiest should have it.... major dps boost to them opposed to ours. 3% crit over 3 combo pts gives it a total of about .3% dps increase per point. Not worth it IMO

@ Holmendis : that specs makes me want to cry... no time off of wrath and starfire is a immediate 14% dps lost...didn't either bother looking any further after that lol.

[Mijolnyr]

First of all your talents make me want to cry it looks like you just aimed for burst dps and are now crying when your sustained dps drains you.
Get Dreamstate instead of natures grace for sure
switch to natures splendor too, with that and these glyphs: http://www.wowwiki.com/Glyph_of_Moonfire http://www.wowwiki.com/Glyph_of_Starfire http://www.wowwiki.com/Glyph_of_Insect_Swarm

switch out imp IS for imp MF and your DoT damage will increase significantly allowing you to switch to a MF-SFx7 rotation. I would still keep eclipse since the proc off SF is far better to spam SF then switch to Wrath when eclipse procs is a far better usage of the talent then wasting your mana for a lesser proc.
sorry for the coded post but I don't care to spoon-feed anyone

[Talliar]

im not gonna lie thats a horrible build. imma teach you to boomkin and not OOMkin

first spec to this

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...h=061811040506

feel free to spend that last point wherever the hell you want. except for eclipse. ITS A WORTHLESS TALENT (WRATH ON BOSS NO GOOD).

next rotate like this: IS,MF, SFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSFSF (repeat)

[Holmendis]

@ Holmendis : that specs makes me want to cry... no time off of wrath and starfire is a immediate 14% dps lost...didn't either bother looking any further after that lol.

My build is based on efficiency with dps, not burst DPS. Besides, tell me why you want to cast wrath faster in a raid?

Also on topic (*ahm* Edeila); glyph of IS, with my suggested talents will give you a 225 dps dot at 21.26 damage per mana efficiency (assumed 1500 spell power).

[Degrador]

Hrm forgot about the glyph, but still doesn't do nearly as much dmg as moonfire, neither does it stay up as long. Much better and easier to MF Starfire spam.

Doesn't do as much total damage, but does similar DPS. Moonfire when glyphed & talented for will do about 8500 dmg over 24 secs (assuming ~1500 SP). Meanwhile IS when glyphed will do about 4500 over 14 secs. So the DPS is pretty similar between them (354 vs 321), with IS taking about two casts over 24 secs vs Moonfire taking one. Still, it's worth it for the cast time (4500 per 1.5s cast, where starfire is about 3500 (including crits) per 3.0s cast).

3% hit, all spiest should have it.... major dps boost to them opposed to ours. 3% crit over 3 combo pts gives it a total of about .3% dps increase per point. Not worth it IMO

That assumes you've got a SPriest with you. If you don't then it's 3% hit to all the raid which is certainly worth it, but if you do then I agree it's not worth the extra crit% given the cast time.

[Degrador]

im not gonna lie thats a horrible build. imma teach you to boomkin and not OOMkin

first spec to this

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...h=061811040506

If you're going to teach someone you may as well learn the lessons yourself. Dreamstate is worse than Intensity - no reason whatsoever to take Dreamstate and not Intensity if you've already got 10 points in Resto.

[Edeila]

Doesn't do as much total damage, but does similar DPS. Moonfire when glyphed & talented for will do about 8500 dmg over 24 secs (assuming ~1500 SP). Meanwhile IS when glyphed will do about 4500 over 14 secs. So the DPS is pretty similar between them (354 vs 321), with IS taking about two casts over 24 secs vs Moonfire taking one. Still, it's worth it for the cast time (4500 per 1.5s cast, where starfire is about 3500 (including crits) per 3.0s cast).

That assumes you've got a SPriest with you. If you don't then it's 3% hit to all the raid which is certainly worth it, but if you do then I agree it's not worth the extra crit% given the cast time.

Yea, but also looking at the rotation.
IS = 12sec - 1.5 GCD
MF = 12 + 9 (glyph)+ 3 (Natures Splender) = 24 - 1.5 GCD
Starfire = 3s cast


Soooo

IS -> MF -> Starfire x4 -> IS -> Starfire x3 -> MF -> Starfire -> IS .. uh I don't even want to finish this... its a messy rotation due to 3sec ticks, and 1.5 GCD. You will constantly be clipping the last 1.5 sec of your IS and MF, which will result in additional mana comsumption over long periods (boss fights).

Idk, I need sleeep lol

[Panoramixe]

Doesn't do as much total damage, but does similar DPS. Moonfire when glyphed & talented for will do about 8500 dmg over 24 secs (assuming ~1500 SP). Meanwhile IS when glyphed will do about 4500 over 14 secs. So the DPS is pretty similar between them (354 vs 321), with IS taking about two casts over 24 secs vs Moonfire taking one. Still, it's worth it for the cast time (4500 per 1.5s cast, where starfire is about 3500 (including crits) per 3.0s cast).

That assumes you've got a SPriest with you. If you don't then it's 3% hit to all the raid which is certainly worth it, but if you do then I agree it's not worth the extra crit% given the cast time.

3500 damage for starfire is way too low, certainly if you include crits.
I did nearly as much at level 77 with 1250 spellpower unbuffed, not including crits.
Imagining in a raid environment you should have:
5% spell crit - MK aura
10% spell crit - mages
3% crit - ele shaman or paladin
4% crit - Nature's Majesty
(3% crit - imp insect swarm)
So that's 25% crit without gear, let's say you have mediocre gear that makes 40% crit on starfire.
A starfire should do about 4250 damage non-crit I believe in a raiding environment, if you're fully buffed.
Now add haste to that and you should have a whole new look at IS.

[Ganim]

3500 damage for starfire is way too low, certainly if you include crits.
I did nearly as much at level 77 with 1250 spellpower unbuffed, not including crits.
Imagining in a raid environment you should have:
5% spell crit - MK aura
10% spell crit - mages
3% crit - ele shaman or paladin
4% crit - Nature's Majesty
(3% crit - imp insect swarm)
So that's 25% crit without gear, let's say you have mediocre gear that makes 40% crit on starfire.
A starfire should do about 4250 damage non-crit I believe in a raiding environment, if you're fully buffed.
Now add haste to that and you should have a whole new look at IS.

Hmm...That would make sense if not for one minuscule detail. Buffs don't stack anymore. As for gear, at 80 your spell crit drops ridiculously low. So im in OK gear and sitting at 19% raid buffed.

[Panoramixe]

You totally don't understand the new raid buff system.
Raid buffs which are the same don't stack, all those I mentioned do stack.
Examples:
Moonkin Aura - Elemental Oath, both are a 5% spell crit buff = doesn't stack
Heart of the crusader - Totem of Wrath - 3% crit debuff on a mob = doesn't stack
Moonkin Aura - Heart of the vrusader - 2 completely different things = do stack.

Have a look at a wws report from someone who is actually raiding at 80:
http://www.juggernautguild.com/sws/s...00204bf9a.html
57.8% crit and average starfire hits of 4355
http://www.juggernautguild.com/sws/s...00204bf9a.html
60,6% crit and average starfire hits of 4196

And yes you need more crit rating per % now, that's how the system works. You will have plenty of crit on gear though if you pick up the right stuff.

[Mr.X]

my idea of best raid spec is

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...h=061119040506

I included glyphs there

Also do a FF,IS, MF,Starfire rotation,

reput IS whenever it falls,
and innervate once u get to below 40% mana

howev u shouldn't oom rly if u got mostly epic and rare gear with lots of spirit and fully buffed, avoid wrath at all costs.

also use treants as they do some very nice dps

if u oom in that, than ur gear must be bad or naxx bosses require super fast dps :P


btw I'm a lvl 72 bal druid(892 spell bonus) and my starfire crits hit for around 4.6-5.4lk
on most mobs, dunno if its any different on naxx bosses howev(with spell resistances)

hope this helps